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The beauty in religion

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I think we ( the masses that question the historical validity and benefits of 'religion' and hold clergy and institutions accountable for their atrocities towards individuals and communities, as discussed in this thread) live in a very fortunate time. You don't have to go too far back in history to find that those that questioned prevailing religious doctrine did so at their own peril - on fear of persecution, torture and execution. Because of this I think there is a potent legacy that carries through to the current day 'atheists'. It does not surprise me to see the vehemence of the language used on both sides. One, as always, does not want to have the dogma challenged for many subtle and blatant reasons. The other has been for too long silenced and in this age of free thinking, free speech and knowledge from physics, astronomy, genetics, evolutionary biology, psychology etc, will not be silenced or wrongly belittled or marginalised any longer. IMO this is an exceptionally good thing and I am glad that there are eloquent writers here that do not allow the generalisations, judgements and slights from believers to stand unchallenged.
 
Tink said:
bellenuit, if they don't believe in a religion, they are atheist.
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An atheist is someone who doesn't accept the evidence offered to date that their is a god. It is not uncommon to hear people respond to the question, "Do you believe in God", with the answer "I have never really thought about it". Such people do not fit easily into the believer/atheist category. Not accepting the evidence to date for a god requires thinking and taking a position.

Also, there are many people who believe in a higher power, whether it be a god or some superior being of sorts, that are not religious. They don't follow a religion, but are not atheists.

In my post I identified three categories; the atheist who has thought through his position, the committed Christian and a larger grouping "that simply follow a religion because they were brought up that way and have never really thought about it or those who have no religion and just couldn't be bothered, but have never really thought about it either. These are neither religious nor atheist as they don't really hold a thought through position, though they may tick a box one way or another on a census form."

If you want to separate out the latter into lapsed/disengaged Christians and "haven't thought about it" atheists, then you can. It does not change the gist of what I was saying. But since the violence seems to be among a subset of these rather then the first two, then you will need to accept that the Christians (though they be lapsed/disengaged) are just as responsible as atheists (though they be of the sort "haven't thought about it").You can't, assuming that is what you are trying to do, lump all the disengaged Christians into the atheist camp.

BTW, since we are basically talking about Australia, I have assumed Church (as per Chris' original post) to mean Christian, though my comments would be applicable to other religious sects.
 
Ruby said:
Happy New Year :)
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Ruby, Happy New Year to you too. :)

I propose that we draw a line under the unpleasantness of the past and try to make 2014 a happier year for all here. Let's try to be a bit more gracious towards each other and leave out all of the offensive, insulting, dismissive and patronizing language.

We have different experiences and opinions so if I say something that offends please draw my attention to it diplomatically and give me a chance to explain or correct myself.

I have just read Bellenuit's courteous and most interesting post #340 and will pen a comment in due course.
 
Thanks burglar, for your definitions.

Bellenuit, I have agreed that there are good and bad in all, but there is no point sugar coating it.

If they have no interest in God, they are atheists, you cant start picking and choosing who is in your camp. You can't open threads putting down religious people and saying that these people aren't atheists.

I might have to open a thread, atheists gone crazy.

As I have said before, I believe that with the decline of principles and care for others, the disgusting language and behaviour that is rising, not just in the youth, through all generations, including our politicians, society is deteriorating, and that is my view.
 
Also want to add, great posts, Chris.

I often wonder what happened to MS+T, I used to enjoy reading his input on theism.
 
Tink said:
Thanks burglar, for your definitions ...
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No worries! (a meaningless platitude)

As a person who is drifting from agnostic to atheist, I need to be aware of the nuances.

Tink said:
... I might have to open a thread, atheists gone crazy ...
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A thread on the moral compass? ... mmm yes, I would view that!

Tink said:
... society is deteriorating, and that is my view.
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Society is deteriorating ... and Religion is waning!
But I strongly believe that there is no solid causal link between the two.
It would, however, be an interesting debate (until it overheats).

:2twocents
 
burglar said:
Society is deteriorating ... and Religion is waning!
But I strongly believe that there is no solid causal link between the two.
It would, however, be an interesting debate (until it overheats).

:2twocents
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Is there any actual evidence that society is deteriorating? Crime has been falling for decades. Fifty years ago, aboriginals couldn't get a look in, you couldn't move to Australia unless your skin was the right colour, being gay could mean a gaol sentence. Going back even further, my grandfather used to tell me about being unable to get a job during the depression at certain businesses, and much of the public service, because he was an Irish Catholic, even though he was born in Australia.

As far as I can see, society has moved along in leaps and bounds.
 
Tink said:
Thanks burglar, for your definitions.

Bellenuit, I have agreed that there are good and bad in all, but there is no point sugar coating it.

If they have no interest in God, they are atheists, you cant start picking and choosing who is in your camp.

I might have to open a thread, atheists gone crazy.
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Tink. You are the one picking and choosing who is in your camp. You just thanked Burglar for providing definitions, definitions that are universally accepted and then you ignore them by saying that people who have no interest in God are atheists. That is incorrect. If you can't tell the difference between "not believing in the existence of" and "ignoring", then I can't really argue further on that issue. Bad Christians ignore God, but they are not atheists.
 
bellenuit said:
Chris. I would disagree with that.

BTW, since we are basically talking about Australia, I have assumed Church (as per Chris' original post) to mean Christian
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Yes, let's confine the discussion to Christianity and since my concern is with youth violence, I'll be thinking mainly of the Gen-Ys & Zs in my comments. After reading your posts carefully, I think we agree on many points and I hope you can at least agree with that :rolleyes:.

My Christian education was through a Baptist church, although I must confess I haven't been to any church since my 20's so I'm out of touch with what is being preached these days. The church I attended was a very traditional one and they used the old King James Bible which, like Shakespeare, was a foreign language to me and I found it all rather boring, but it was my introduction to Christianity and, like many of today's youth, I probably would never have got to hear Jesus Christ's teachings of peace, love, humility, etc. without it.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ atheist: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
That definition suggests more of a definite stance against God than the one you gave. So atheists can be God disbelievers or God deniers. A denier sounds more emphatic than a disbeliever.

People are entitled to make their own decisions and if, after hearing the full story, a person conscientiously decides against God and religion, then that's their personal decision and they must accept any consequences. That doesn't automatically make them bad people and providing they live by basically the same rules and have the same respect for basic human values and responsibilities and laws as Christians do, then "live and let live" is fine with me.

Both intelligent and caring Christian parents, and intelligent and caring atheist parents, teach their children proper regard for basic human values and responsibilities and the law, and both endeavor to give them good moral compasses to guide them, and their children usually grow up to be decent and law abiding citizens.

Your "three categories" roughly correspond with my spectrally coloured normal distribution curve model. In UK, 70% believe in God or some sort of spirit or life force and 25% don't. I don't know how accurately it fits the data but this diagram gives a rough idea.

Spectrum.jpg

I see "the committed Christians" in the red region, the "lapsed/disengaged" Christians in the orange-yellow region, the God disbelievers in the yellow-blue region and "the atheist who has thought through his position", ie the God deniers, in the violet region.

If someone ticks a box on a census form then they have considered their position, albeit briefly, and made a decision. There might not be conviction in their decision, but they have voted and that will put them on one side of the mean or the other.

The problem I see with today's youth is that, due to the atheist messages continually put out by their "music" and celebrity idols, and the media in general, plus people like Richard Dawkins writing books and going on TV "preaching" his atheistic views, many youths think it's "cool" to be an atheist and very "uncool" to be a Christian, without fully understanding what it is they don't believe in, and because they see it as uncool, they don't bother to even investigate, which is what I'm thinking when I refer to the "rise in atheism". I think they might be what you refer to as the "haven't thought about it" atheists. We need a name for them, perhaps "htai" atheists? I don't think they're agnostics because an agnostic is a person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist) which suggests that they have at least thought about it. I guess it's much easier just to go with the majority of non-thinkers than join one of the minorities of thinkers. But some of these "htai" atheist youths then go around bullying, often physically, and persecuting those who choose Christianity. Why???

You say that "lapsed/disengaged" Christians are just as responsible as "htai" atheists for the violence we see. Really? While there are always exceptions, Christians, lapsed or otherwise, don't usually go around bullying and persecuting atheists or other Christians do they?

Youths seem to enjoy wearing black clothes and images of the "dark side" ... skulls, skeletons, etc. Most people don't see a problem with this, and laugh it off as harmless fashion which it could very well be, but is this obsession with the "dark side" healthy? Why is it so "uncool" to encourage the good and positive aspects of life? Alcohol (and previously cigarette) vendors continually try to tell us that their aim in advertising is to increase their market share. Could Satan be trying to do the same ... a form of subtle "grooming" perhaps? Atheists deny the existence of God, and ridicule the existence of Satan even more vigorously which, as I understand it, is just what Satan wants because his objective is to turn people away from God by whatever means possible. Just a thought and by all means, choose what you want to believe, but do your research.

The recent revelations about string and multiverse theory and then reincarnation were a real wake-up call for me and got me thinking, if the atheists are right and there isn't a God or a Satan, then apart from having to put up with some abuse of no real importance on an internet forum, I will have lost nothing by being a theist. But if the atheists are wrong and there is a God and a Satan, then the prospect of my soul ultimately ending up in Hell, whatever form it takes, is something to consider because Hell is unlikely to be pleasant. I wonder how many here can appreciate the implications of 10 spacetime dimensions? I've often wondered about Hell. Putting aside the old "fire and brimstone" model, I imagine being a space walker with an infinite life support system whose lifeline was cut so that he was left to drift endlessly in dark and empty space would be rather bad. Forget about stoking furnaces and laughing and joking with all of your mates, for a disembodied soul to be banished for eternity to the outer extremities of a lonely and empty universe in another dimension would be a Hell I would like to avoid.

Meanwhile, back here on Earth, there's a growing perception that society is becoming increasingly violent, with the rise in OMCGs, drug crimes etc. Assaults are no longer just bloody noses or black eyes, they're now stabbings, glassings, head stompings, etc. You say that if you asked the drunken thugs about their religious beliefs, they would "just laugh at you and punch you on the face." I'm more inclined to think they would scream, "I DON'T (expletive) BELIEVE IN ANY OF THAT (expletive) GOD S**T", and then punch you to the ground and stomp on your head, which would be a fairly strong admission of their atheism I think. If they have never thought or cared about God or Jesus, don't you think it would be good if they did?

I remember reading a book in the 60's titled "The Cross and the Switchblade". It tells the true story of pastor David Wilkerson's first five years in New York City, where he ministered to disillusioned youth, encouraging them to turn away from the drugs and gang violence they were involved with. BBC radio did a program about it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00w7psw Sounds like it should be compulsory reading for all young people, especially those hooligans and thugs.

Do you have any details of the number of Christian charity workers vs atheist charity workers? I'm guessing that they're all out there working tirelessly together to help those in need and we should all follow their example of peace, love and harmony, assuming that is the case.

I think most of us (I know I am) are tired of hearing about the sexual scandals. Some horrific crimes were committed, but the law has now dealt with the offenders and we've had the inquiries and the royal commission, and I think it's time to move on and focus on how we can improve our society in the future.

I am also tired of anyone who dares to mention God or Jesus or the Bible, being reviled and labeled as "godbotherer", "brainwashed", "gullible", etc. which is as offensive to me as all atheists being labeled as "ignorant savages" would be to you. Yes, atheists have been persecuted in the past but our thinking has evolved since then and we should now try to respect each others views. Anyway, we probably won't find out which side is really correct until it is too late to do anything.

burglar said:
agnostic definition vs atheist
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...ion+vs+atheist&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
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Burglar, which of those "agnostic definition vs atheist" links do you favour?

McLovin said:
Is there any actual evidence that society is deteriorating? Crime has been falling for decades.
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There are many categories of crime but I saw some data that indicated that violent crime in recent years has increased.
 
Chris45 said:
... Burglar, which of those "agnostic definition vs atheist" links do you favour? ...
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I threw up the definitions to show that "choice of words" cause some views to appear opposed.

In throwing up many links, I see that the populace has added to the confusion.
(One of the fruits of internet dictionaries. :p:)

I have been an agnostic ... I would have believed if reasonable evidence was produced!
I am leaning to atheism ... I can no longer believe.
 
There are some points I disagree with and some I think need clarification.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ atheist: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
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I don't like that definition because it really mixes up two distinct sets of atheists (there really should be two different words for it). I would prefer (and other definitions do it similar to this): One who disbelieves the existence of God or gods or one who denies the existence of God or gods. Pretty much all the "leading" atheist thinkers, such as Dawkins, Harris and Dennett profess to be of the sort that disbelieves the existence of God or gods. That is they are open to believing the existence of God, but haven't seen any evidence to support such a belief. Being open doesn't mean they see it as a 50/50 bet and they are more inclined to hold the view that he doesn't exist, but don't rule it out. I personally regard myself as one who disbelieves God exists from the evidence I have seen, but would accept his existence should I see sufficient proof.

That definition suggests more of a definite stance against God than the one you gave. So atheists can be God disbelievers or God deniers. A denier sounds more emphatic than a disbeliever.
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Agreed and that is why I dislike the definition and in particular because it is probably not representative of what we now regard as mainstream atheism.

Both intelligent and caring Christian parents, and intelligent and caring atheist parents, teach their children proper regard for basic human values and responsibilities and the law, and both endeavor to give them good moral compasses to guide them, and their children usually grow up to be decent and law abiding citizens.
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Agreed

The problem I see with today's youth is that, due to the atheist messages continually put out by their "music" and celebrity idols, and the media in general, plus people like Richard Dawkins writing books and going on TV "preaching" his atheistic views, many youths think it's "cool" to be an atheist and very "uncool" to be a Christian, without fully understanding what it is they don't believe in, and because they see it as uncool, they don't bother to even investigate, which is what I'm thinking when I refer to the "rise in atheism".
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No way would I put Dawkins in the same category as musicians and celebrity idols. I follow Dawkins extensively and he continuously strives to expose and fight injustice where he sees it. He expresses a very positive message for youth, not the nihilistic message of some musicians. Most of his books do not directly concern religion (apart from some well publicist titles such as The God Delusion) but are scientifically important (The Selfish Gene) or are expressions of joy in nature and the universe (Magic of Reality: Richard Dawkins, bestselling author and the world’s most celebrated evolutionary biologist, has spent his career elucidating the many wonders of science. Here, he takes a broader approach and uses his unrivaled explanatory powers to illuminate the ways in which the world really works. Filled with clever thought experiments and jaw-dropping facts, The Magic of Reality explains a stunningly wide range of natural phenomena: How old is the universe? Why do the continents look like disconnected pieces of a jigsaw puzzle? What causes tsunamis? Why are there so many kinds of plants and animals? Who was the first man, or woman? Starting with the magical, mythical explanations for the wonders of nature, Dawkins reveals the exhilarating scientific truths behind these occurrences. This is a page-turning detective story that not only mines all the sciences for its clues but primes the reader to think like a scientist as well). Dawkins promotes a positive outlook on life but urges readers to view our universe with an open and scientific mind. The musicians who promote nihilistic and anti-social attitudes could be believers or non believers. One cannot tell unless they expressly state their position but are probably of the sort that couldn't care less either way.

But some of these "htai" atheist youths then go around bullying, often physically, and persecuting those who choose Christianity. Why???

You say that "lapsed/disengaged" Christians are just as responsible as "htai" atheists for the violence we see. Really? While there are always exceptions, Christians, lapsed or otherwise, don't usually go around bullying and persecuting atheists or other Christians do they?
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I'm a bit lost here as I was never suggesting that the violence we see from drunken youths in Australia is religiously motivated. I think the religion or lack of religion is irrelevant and many of the gangs probably contain youths from both camps in the same gang or group. They have no strong conviction either way and they seek violence for the sake of violence, not as some religious issue (apart from some ethnic gangs that due to their ethnicity share a common religion).

Youths seem to enjoy wearing black clothes and images of the "dark side" ... skulls, skeletons, etc. Most people don't see a problem with this, and laugh it off as harmless fashion which it could very well be, but is this obsession with the "dark side" healthy?
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I agree that it is not healthy, but that is not something promoted by atheists. They oppose using the supernatural as an explanation of things.

Why is it so "uncool" to encourage the good and positive aspects of life?
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I agree. If you don't believe in an afterlife, you hopefully will try to make the best of this life.

Atheists deny the existence of God, and ridicule the existence of Satan even more vigorously
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as discussed above many atheists do not believe the evidence for God's or Satan's existence, denial applies to just some.

The recent revelations about string and multiverse theory and then reincarnation were a real wake-up call for me and got me thinking, if the atheists are right and there isn't a God or a Satan, then apart from having to put up with some abuse of no real importance on an internet forum, I will have lost nothing by being a theist. But if the atheists are wrong and there is a God and a Satan, then the prospect of my soul ultimately ending up in Hell, whatever form it takes, is something to consider because Hell is unlikely to be pleasant.
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Pascal's wager once more. An all loving all forgiving God sentences you to eternal suffering for using the brain he gave you. Doesn't make any sense to me, but it has been discussed ad nauseum before in other forums.

Meanwhile, back here on Earth, there's a growing perception that society is becoming increasingly violent, with the rise in OMCGs, drug crimes etc. Assaults are no longer just bloody noses or black eyes, they're now stabbings, glassings, head stompings, etc. You say that if you asked the drunken thugs about their religious beliefs, they would "just laugh at you and punch you on the face." I'm more inclined to think they would scream, "I DON'T (expletive) BELIEVE IN ANY OF THAT (expletive) GOD S**T", and then punch you to the ground and stomp on your head, which would be a fairly strong admission of their atheism I think
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A complete non-sequiter Chris. Atheists have a moral compass too and there are bad atheists and bad Christians.

If they have never thought or cared about God or Jesus, don't you think it would be good if they did?
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It would be much better if they thought about their fellow humans and our shared humanity. If they get that through religion or through a humanist upbringing, that is OK with me.
 
Great posts..

I do agree that the ramifications of people actions is the problem, and sadly, justice isn't getting served in society as we can see, and for some reason, some people are feeling this entitlement mentality which is coming from home and society, at the moment.

In religion, its taught that you are answerable to all your actions, it is your responsibility to look after yourself and your fellow man -- equally, not just at Christmas, but every day of the year. Children should be taught that, that helping others is what its all about.

Until these things are strengthened in the home, and that's how I see also, through the Church, that the world doesn't owe you. To make the world a better place, you need to give.
Also appreciation in things, some of these people seem so angry. Its not all about you!!!
We seem to be becoming a very selfish society.
Instead of it being about US its about ME!

Our choices affect others.
Happiness doesn't come from just getting what you want in life.
Its becoming a cold society.

Also agree about the media, swearing, the sexualization of everything, the list goes on
The balance needs to be brought back in and its concerning.

Just my thoughts..
 
Chris45 said:
Youths seem to enjoy wearing black clothes and images of the "dark side" ... skulls, skeletons, etc. Most people don't see a problem with this, and laugh it off as harmless fashion which it could very well be, but is this obsession with the "dark side" healthy? Why is it so "uncool" to encourage the good and positive aspects of life? Alcohol (and previously cigarette) vendors continually try to tell us that their aim in advertising is to increase their market share. Could Satan be trying to do the same ... a form of subtle "grooming" perhaps? Atheists deny the existence of God, and ridicule the existence of Satan even more vigorously which, as I understand it, is just what Satan wants because his objective is to turn people away from God by whatever means possible. Just a thought and by all means, choose what you want to believe, but do your research.
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Wow.:eek:
 

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