The beauty in religion

[pavilion103]

The fundamental part of Jesus teachings were not about "good life principles." They included these but these were not the main message at all.

Jesus message was a very clear one about eternal salvation. He unquestionably claimed to be the messiah, the only Son of God. And he spoke of salvation for those who received Him and the sacrifice He was about to make. He predicted His own death and bodily resurrection.

This is very very clear. He was not some good teacher.
He is either a lunatic, a liar or Lord.
He left no room for the title "good teacher"

 

[Ruby]

Ruby, this nation was built on Christianity and has shaped it to what it is today.

??? Didn't you just say the following - a few posts back:- ".....and as we can see in society its slowly taking a dive as people become more selfish and its all about themselves rather than having responsibilities and caring for others.

The Mental Health units are all booming with drugs and alcohol as we have a crisis with all these children that have no direction in life." ?

So you are saying that this is the society Christianity has shaped?

I don't know where you get Jesus isn't a Christian.

I didn't say that either, so please don't misquote me. However, since you mention it, he wasn't. Christianity wasn't invented until well after JC died. He was a Jew.

If you cant see how much the Church contributed through the years, then that's your choice, and that video sums it up perfectly.

As stated, I do see the church's contributions, but I don't filter out everything I don't want to see - as you do Tink.

Its my choice to choose that I prefer the teachings of the Church.
I prefer what they stand for which is for all life, for the common good, and family values.

I am glad they are there standing up for what I believe in.

As I said before, you are welcome to believe any fairy tale you like. If you are happy to overlook centuries of greed, corruption, power struggles, and total control of the population through fear - then that is fine by me, but please spare the rest of us the lie.

 

[Chris45]

...

FxTrader, the venom with which you discuss religion and churches and attack Tink suggests that you not only disbelieve in God, you really hate him and the church and Christians with a vengeance! Most people are prepared to give some credit where credit is due, but you appear to have nothing positive to say. Were you a victim of church abuse by any chance?

... and secondly, the teachings of Jesus did not originate with him and are not "owned" by the Christian church. They are the guiding principles of all good people - and have been for thousands of years - long before Jesus was born - as others before me have pointed out. You might say that JC hijacked them from other ancient philosophies.

Ruby, are you saying that none of Jesus' teachings are original?

Can you give some specific examples plus the ancient philosophies from which they were hijacked?

As stated, I do see the church's contributions, but I don't filter out everything I don't want to see - as you do Tink.

Tink, I am happy to accept that religion gives some of its adherents comfort, but please stop trying to white wash it. You have obviously been brainwashed but others among us haven't.

Your criticism of Tink is both harsh and unjustified!

I think Tink is trying to compensate for the religious negativity and hatred that seems to abound these days. The media is full of the horrific abuse stories and there is probably a growing perception in the general community that the church is rotten to the core and all priests are pedophiles, etc. which must make the VAST MAJORITY of decent and honorable church people very concerned.

In "A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse" by Thomas Plante, a psychiatrist specializing in abuse counseling and considered an expert on clerical abuse, he states "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (and mostly in the 1960s and 1970s) have had a sexual experience with a minor." According to Newsweek magazine, the figure is similar to that in the rest of the adult population. But the media generally aren't interested in stressing this because it's the sensational that sells.

Churches are composed of people, the overwhelming majority of whom are decent and compassionate, and if you ever find yourself in a desperately unfortunate situation, it's more likely to be a Christian, or other religious person, who comes to your aid than a hardened atheist, at least that's been my experience.

 

[McLovin]

Churches are composed of people, the overwhelming majority of whom are decent and compassionate, and if you ever find yourself in a desperately unfortunate situation, it's more likely to be a Christian, or other religious person, who comes to your aid than a hardened atheist, at least that's been my experience.

It's rubbish statements like this that are the reason people have such little time for Bible bashers.

 

[CanOz]

It's rubbish statements like this that are the reason people have such little time for Bible bashers.

Yup. pretty much turned me off to the rest of the drivel here...just when i was trying hard to relate

 

[Tink]

Thanks Chris, for your post.

No one agrees with the abuse that has happened as I have stated numerous times, and I agree with you that the balance in the papers is out of context, its a pity that they dont zone in on all pedophiles in all areas rather than only on the Church.
I have been involved in the Church my whole life and am yet to meet one that was abused.

The balance of what the Church/religion has contributed over the years and still contributes is what I have been bringing forward when I put up this video.


As stated, I prefer the teachings of the Church, and if I want to say that, I can.

As mentioned, in previous posts, the private/religious schools are all booming with long waiting lists because of their higher standard of education and their superior discipline.

I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Chris45]

It's rubbish statements like this that are the reason people have such little time for Bible bashers.

A predictable response from a REAL Bible basher.
CanOz you disappoint me.

 

[muir]

_______


Harry Lime: Nobody thinks in terms of human beings. Governments don't. Why should we? They talk about the people and the proletariat, I talk about the suckers and the mugs - it's the same thing. They have their five-year plans, so have I.

Martins: You used to believe in God.

Harry Lime: Oh, I still do believe in God, old man. I believe in God and Mercy and all that. But the dead are happier dead. They don't miss much here, poor devils.

 

[cynic]

A predictable response from a REAL Bible basher.
CanOz you disappoint me.

Chris, whilst I can respect the right of another to form opinions derived from personal experience, I believe that the sentiments expressed in that last paragraph of your earlier post were very unwise.

I not only fully with sympathise McLovin's and Canoz's response, I join them in their indignation at the offensive suggestion that the Christian religion holds a monopoly on morality!

 

[Chris45]

I not only fully with sympathise McLovin's and Canoz's response, I join them in their indignation at the offensive suggestion that the Christian religion holds a monopoly on morality!

With respect Cynic, some of us find the strident atheist views and language expressed here equally offensive.

Everyone should be entitled to express their views without being treated rudely and disrespectfully, and ridiculed.

It strikes me that hardened aggressive atheists have much in common with religious extremist nutters. Both are intolerant, both lack compassion, both are hate-mongers and both should be condemned.

I don't know where the suggestion that "the Christian religion holds a monopoly on morality!" came from. My comments were referring to acts of charitable kindness that I have witnessed.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby, are you saying that none of Jesus' teachings are original?

Yes, I am. They have been expressed differently, but the essence of them had been around for thousands of years. All the "do unto others" stuff has appeared in various guises in many ancient philosophies. The "believe in me and you will be saved and live everlasting life" has also been the promise of other more ancient gods, or some variant of it has. My point is that religion was around long before Christianity, and the promises it provided the hopeful were all variations on the same theme. The "live a good moral life" bit was written about and taught by ancient philosophers well before Christ.

Can you give some specific examples plus the ancient philosophies from which they were hijacked?

Chris - no, I can't give specific examples, I'm afraid, but if you read some of the ancient Greek myths and legends you will find them buried there - for a start. Philosophers.............. Socrates (around 400bc), for example, taught (in the manner of his era - dialogue with small groups of fellow citizens) such things as justice to fellow man, virtue, the importance of seeking wisdom while retaining humility, piety, self-mastery, etc. And there were many others.

This is not a criticism of Jesus' teachings, but he was not the first to propose them.

Your criticism of Tink is both harsh and unjustified!

I'm sorry you think that. I believe it is quite justified.

In "A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse" by Thomas Plante, a psychiatrist specializing in abuse counseling and considered an expert on clerical abuse, he states "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (and mostly in the 1960s and 1970s) have had a sexual experience with a minor." According to Newsweek magazine, the figure is similar to that in the rest of the adult population. But the media generally aren't interested in stressing this because it's the sensational that sells.

I don't know what the figures are, so I can't argue with you, but what upsets people so much is not just the paedophilia (which is horrific in itself) but the way the church knowingly covered it up and allowed it to continue unabated for decades. That is what is rotten to the core. I have just been reading a book about a catholic priest called John Day who raped hundreds of children in and around Mildura for decades - took his pick of the local youth - and was never brought to justice owing to the protection offered him by the church and a corrupt catholic police officer. This disgusting pervert also consorted with prostitutes - also known by the church. This is what makes people think the church is rotten to the core!!!!! The hierarchy knowingly allowing this to go on - as it has, for decades!

Churches are composed of people, the overwhelming majority of whom are decent and compassionate ......

Agreed, absolutely!

.........and if you ever find yourself in a desperately unfortunate situation, it's more likely to be a Christian, or other religious person, who comes to your aid than a hardened atheist, at least that's been my experience.

What a bigoted, sanctimonious, nonsensical statement that is!!! You have no evidence to back that up! And what makes you think atheists are 'hardened'??? It is no wonder people are turned off Christianity with ambassadors like you.

 

[bellenuit]

Ruby, are you saying that none of Jesus' teachings are original?

Can you give some specific examples plus the ancient philosophies from which they were hijacked?

Chris. Not quite what you asked for, but while looking for examples I came across this, which is interesting in its own right. It looks at similarities in the "story of Jesus" and the stories of deities which preceded him. It would be hard to conclude that although Jesus may be a real historical figure (debatable), much of what is attributed to him was "hijacked" from the stories of deities long before his time. These deities are of course today regarded as mythological figures.

I have checked some of the deities listed at this link and though some of the claims made are disputable, a great deal of their stories are as stated.

10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

 

[Ruby]

I have been involved in the Church my whole life and am yet to meet one that was abused.

Do you think that a man who was raped by a priest when he was a child in 1970 (for example) would be likely to tell you? You may know lots of people to whom that has happened.

 

[bellenuit]

On searching whether Jesus' teachings were original, I came across this.

Gautama Buddha taught that all men are brothers, that charity ought to be extended to all, even to enemies; that men ought to love truth and hate the lie; that good work ought not to be done openly; but rather in secret; that the dangers of riches are to be avoided; that man's highest aim ought to be purity in thought, word and deed, since the higher things are pure, whose nature is akin to that of man.

http://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000121.html

This one is from a website that suggests that Jesus may be a reincarnation of Buddha. What is interesting is that this following section quotes the holy books of each (BTW, "identical" would not be my choice of word, I would opt for "similar"):

Identical Teachings of Buddha and Christ

1. "Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:31)
"Consider others as yourself." (Dhammapada 10:1)

2. "If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also." (Luke 6:29)
"If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon any desires and utter no evil words." (Majjhima Nikaya 21:6)

3.
"But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." (Luke 6:27-28)

"Hatreds do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good ... Overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth." (Dhammapada 1.5 & 17.3)

4.
"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.̢۪" (Matthew 25:45)

"If you do not tend one another, then who is there to tend to you? Whoever would tend me, he should tend the sick." (Vinaya, Mahavagga 8:26:3)

5.
"Put your sword back in its place,†Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." (Matthew 26:52)

"Abandoning the taking of life, the ascetic Gautama dwells refraining from taking life, without stick or sword." (Digha Nikaya 1:1:8)

6.
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one̢۪s life for one̢۪s friends." (John 15:12-13)

"Just as a mother would protect her only child at the risk of her own life, even so, cultivate a boundless heart towards all beings. Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world." (Sutta Nipata 149-150)

7. "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
"The body of the Buddha is born of love, patience, gentleness and truth." (Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra 2)

8.
"He told them another parable: 'The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches." (Matthew 13:31-32)

"Do not underestimate good, thinking it will not affect you. Dripping water can fill a pitcher, drop by drop; one who is wise is filled with good, even if one accumulates it little by little." (Dhammapada 9:7)

9.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother̢۪s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother̢۪s eye." (Luke 6:41-42)

"The faults of others are easier to see than one's own; the faults of others are easily seen, for they are sifted like chaff, but one's own faults are hard to see. This is like the cheat who hides his dice and shows the dice of his opponent, calling attention to the other's shortcomings, continually thinking of accusing him." (Udanavarga 27:1)

10.
"They said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" He said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:4-7)

"Do not look at the faults of others, or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done." (Dhammapada 4:7)

11.
"Your eye is the lamp of your body. If your eye is healthy your whole body is full of light; but if it is not healthy, your body is full of darkness. Therefore consider whether the light in you is full of darkness. If then your whole body is full of light, with no part of it in darkness, it will be as full of light as when a lamp gives you light with its rays." (Luke 11:34-36)

"As a man with eyes who carries a lamp sees all objects, so too with one who has heard the Moral Law. He will become perfectly wise." (Udanavarga 22:4)

12.
"Your father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." (Matthew 5:45)

"That great cloud rains down on all whether their nature is superior or inferior. The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low." (Saddharma Pundarika Sutra 5)

13. "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20)
"Let us live most happily, possessing nothing; let us feed on joy, like the radiant gods." (Dhammapada 15:4)

14.
"If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." (Matthew 19:21)

"The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond." (Dhammapada 13:11)

15.
"He looked up and saw rich people putting their gifts into the treasury; he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. He said, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them; for all of them have contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in all she had to live on." (Luke 21:1-4)

"Giving is the noble expression of the benevolence of the mighty. Even dust, given in childish innocence, is a good gift. No gift that is given in good faith to a worthy recipient can be called small; it effects us so great." (Jatakamala 3:23)

16. "Everyone who lives and believes in me will never die." (John 11:26)
"Those who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven or beyond." (Majjhima Nikaya 22:47)

17.
"Those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will save it." (Mark 8:35)

"With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging." (Majjhima Nikaya 72:15)

18.
"Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." (Matthew 8:20)

"The thoughtful exert themselves; they do not delight in an abode. Like swans who have left their lake they leave their house and home." (Majjhima Nikaya)

19.
"When the devil had finished every test, he departed from him until an opportune time." (Luke 4:13)

"During the six years that the Bodhisattva practiced austerities, the demon followed behind him step by step, seeking an opportunity to harm him. But he found no opportunity whatsoever and went away discouraged and discontent." (Lalitavistara Sutra 18)

20. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." (Matthew 5:8)
"Anyone who enters into meditation on compassion can see Brahma with his own eyes, talk to him face to face and consult with him." (Digha Nikaya 19:43)

21. "Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them." (John 20:26)
"He goes unhindered through a wall." (Anguttara Nikaya 3:60)
22.
"And after six days Jesus takes with him Peter, and James, and John, and leads them up into a high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on Earth can white them." (Mark 9:2-3)

"Ananda, having arranged one set of golden robes on the body of the Lord, observed that against the Lord's body it appeared dulled. And he said, "It is wonderful, Lord, it is marvelous how clear and bright the Lord's skin appears! It looks even brighter than the golden robes in which it is clothed." (Digha Nikaya 16:4:37)

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen045.html

 

[Chris45]

What a bigoted, sanctimonious, nonsensical statement that is!!! You have no evidence to back that up! And what makes you think atheists are 'hardened'??? It is no wonder people are turned off Christianity with ambassadors like you.

I was quite enjoying your post until I got to the last bit of abusive, venomous, unwarranted over-reaction!

What part of "at least that's been my experience" didn't you understand?

If you are turned off Christianity by such a simple observation then there is obviously no way you would ever become one!!!

Not all atheists are "hardened", rude, and abusive, and most I have met are considerate and reasonable, but there are a few here that definitely fit the former description!!!

 

[Chris45]

On searching whether Jesus' teachings were original, I came across this.

Thanks Bellenuit, that's most interesting! Especially, "Buddha and Jesus were both holy prophets of God who appeared in their own times for the spiritual rejuvenation of the people to whom they were sent. Buddha appeared in India about six hundred years before Jesus. In both were found a purity of life, sanctity of character and patient endurance under fierce persecution. It appears that they were both very near in resemblance as suggested by the following analogies." ... and the bit about ... "Jesus may be a reincarnation of Buddha"

According to Wikipedia, "Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity, refused to endorse many views on creation and stated that questions on the origin of the world are not ultimately useful for ending suffering." which conflicts with the above.

But, apart from the creator deity bit, basically both religions are teaching the same good stuff but to different congregations. Learn something new every day.

 

[Ruby]

Not all atheists are "hardened", rude, and abusive, and most I have met are considerate and reasonable, but there are a few here that definitely fit the former description!!!

Now you are contradicting yourself. A few posts ago atheists were "hardened". My objection was to your deciding that atheists were "hardened" as if being one meant you were automatically the other. You would not even know the religious leanings of most people you meet on an everyday basis, so why make such a judgement?

 

[cynic]

With respect Cynic, some of us find the strident atheist views and language expressed here equally offensive.

Everyone should be entitled to express their views without being treated rudely and disrespectfully, and ridiculed.

It strikes me that hardened aggressive atheists have much in common with religious extremist nutters. Both are intolerant, both lack compassion, both are hate-mongers and both should be condemned.

I don't know where the suggestion that "the Christian religion holds a monopoly on morality!" came from. My comments were referring to acts of charitable kindness that I have witnessed.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify that for me.
I can now more comfortably relate to what you've expressed. As you've no doubt already noticed, a certain phrase was sufficiently ambiguous to be mistaken by a number of members as a sweeping generalisation with which anyone identifying with atheism could easily take offense. I now understand that was not your intent.

Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.

P.S. "monopoly on morality" was my misconstrued understanding of the paragraph in question. (I know! Very naughty of me! Naughty, naughty cynic!!!)

 

[Tink]

Thanks for saying that, Chris.

It gets tiring hearing that language when you express an opinion and thats not just in this thread, we should be entitled to express our views without hearing that.

 

[Ruby]

Thanks for saying that, Chris.

It gets tiring hearing that language when you express an opinion and thats not just in this thread, we should be entitled to express our views without hearing that.

Tink - I fully respect your right to express your views, but if you do so, you must also respect the right of others to disagree. There is nothing wrong with robust discussion! What is wrong, however, is the sweeping assertions (made on numerous occasions on this thread and others) that the Christian church has a monopoly on morality, and the implication that somehow Christians are better people than non-believers. I am not the first (or only) person to point this out. What is also wrong is making statements which are blatantly without any basis in fact, and which have no evidence to support them. This has also been done on this thread by people supporting the Christian viewpoint.

If you and Chris find my objections to such utterances offensive, then perhaps you would be better not making offensive statements in the first place.

If some of the claims you make were more factual and less biased, and with less white-washing of the truth, we could probably have a more interesting and respectful debate.

I apologise in advance if you find my language rude; I don't intend it that way.