The Abbott Government

[rumpole]

Obviously you are not a taxpayer. Its got nothing to do with Abbott. Ford, GM and Toyota are going because the taxpayer is tired of bailing them out. It's called throwing good money after bad. It's surprising that you post on a Stock Forum yet know so little about market forces.

Tell it to the Americans, Germans, Italians, Japanese, Chinese. They all assist their industries in one way or another.

If you were so concerned about market forces you would call for a ban on all imports from state owned industries , like most products from China, ban Etihad , Emirates and Air NZ from flying here etc.

 

[sptrawler]

As I've said before, he doesn't have to write a blank cheque.

Inject some capital into those businesses. For example, buy their plant and machinery and lease it back to them or give them secured loans. The sort of things other investors would do. And reserve some of our gas exports for local users at a reasonable price.

That would keep them going until some of the structural problems can be sorted.

Can't you see, if the Government bought them out, there is no way GM would lease it back.lol

They would take the money and run, It isn't viable.

The Government could take over the plant and start running it as a government enterprise.
Then after 5 years and $30billion in loses, you would be sreaming for them to close it. Also everyone would be saying "Tony bought a dud, with tax payer money"

Let's keep it logical, G.M is global producer, they can't make money out of the plant.

Why do you think the government can improve the situation?
I think emotions are clouding common sense, the governmets are all to blame for this situation evolving.

There is no easy fix, and as Calliope says you can't keep throwing good money after bad.

You can't run your home buget like that and you can't run a country like that, Greece and Spain are an example of that ideology.
They were having a great time, everyone on a government funded pension at 55, great untill you run out of money. Now they have 20% unemployment.

As for giving G.M a secured loan and injecting tax payer money, they don't need it.
If they were going to make the plant profitable, they would have expanded its production, rather than build a new plant in Korea and Thailand.

 

[sptrawler]

Tell it to the Americans, Germans, Italians, Japanese, Chinese. They all assist their industries in one way or another.

If you were so concerned about market forces you would call for a ban on all imports from state owned industries , like most products from China, ban Etihad , Emirates and Air NZ from flying here etc.

Germany produces appriximately 6million cars per year, China 14million, Japan 7million, South Korea 4.5million, USA 4million.

Australia 113,000 cars, how do you compete?
O.K we put import tarrifs on China, USA, Germany and Korea.

They in return put tarrifs on our exports.

So we export less and we increase the tax on imports which puts the prices up, that means we need to lift wages and taxes.
Which makes the Australian car more expensive, so we increase the tarrifs further on cars.

Meanwhile we sell less cars, because even with tarrifs the overseas companies make cheaper and cheaper cars.
This comes about by improvements in technology, manufaturing techniques and economies of scale.

So we pour more tax payer money into the company, but the company can't justify updating the plant due to the low volumes.
So we increase the tarrifs and the wages and the taxes.

Rumpole, maybe you can see some logic in it, but it defeats me.

 

[McLovin]

As I've said before, he doesn't have to write a blank cheque.

Inject some capital into those businesses. For example, buy their plant and machinery and lease it back to them or give them secured loans. The sort of things other investors would do. And reserve some of our gas exports for local users at a reasonable price.

That would keep them going until some of the structural problems can be sorted.

They've had 25 years to sort out their structural problems, but the solution is to throw more money at them?

You need to face reality, producing a couple of hundred thousand cars/year will never be economic.

If throwing cash at them is the sort of thing other investors would do, then why aren't they doing it?

 

[rumpole]

They've had 25 years to sort out their structural problems, but the solution is to throw more money at them?

You need to face reality, producing a couple of hundred thousand cars/year will never be economic.

If throwing cash at them is the sort of thing other investors would do, then why aren't they doing it?

Taken to its logical conclusion, all your argument leads to is a country totally dependent on other countries for anything more advanced than digging a few minerals out of the ground, and this government does not even want to get a fair return from that.

Skills , zero. A nation of losers is the way we are going, but hey, let's just blame market forces shall we ?

 

[sptrawler]

Taken to its logical conclusion, all your argument leads to is a country totally dependent on other countries for anything more advanced than digging a few minerals out of the ground, and this government does not even want to get a fair return from that.

Skills , zero. A nation of losers is the way we are going, but hey, let's just blame market forces shall we ?

No, I don't think that is right.

We just have to work out where we have a natural advantage, and then exploit and grow those industries.

Maybe it will come through the NBN, or agriculture or an offshoot of mining. Maybe it will come from a technology that hasn't been discovered yet.

Singapore has no natural resources and very little manufacturing, yet it is a financial power house.
They have found their niche, we have to do the same.
We are not going to maintain our living standards, trying to make T shirts cheaper than China.

 

[McLovin]

Taken to its logical conclusion, all your argument leads to is a country totally dependent on other countries for anything more advanced than digging

Rubbish. They were saying the same thing 30 years ago when they started tearing down tariffs. Everyone would be out of a job.

I can't think of many people who today would argue that was the incorrect decision. But I guess some people will never be happy unless they can buy a pair of Australian made Dunlop Volleys.

 

[rumpole]

Rubbish. They were saying the same thing 30 years ago when they started tearing down tariffs. Everyone would be out of a job.

I can't think of many people who today would argue that was the incorrect decision. But I guess some people will never be happy unless they can buy a pair of Australian made Dunlop Volleys.

It's coming true, it's just taken a long time to happen. The underlying under-employment rate is disturbing, as is youth unemployment, but I guess you don't care much about that.

As for Australian made Dunlop volleys, they may be more expensive, but they would be better quality than the imported rubbish.

 

[McLovin]

It's coming true, it's just taken a long time to happen. The underlying under-employment rate is disturbing, as is youth unemployment, but I guess you don't care much about that.

You mean this youth unemployment? Looks lower to me. Maybe I'm being to glass half full.



Yes, underemployment is a problem, but I can't for the life of me understand how using taxpayer dollars to prop up companies selling cr@ppy cars will fix the problem. Weekly earnings have been rising for decades. Weekly earnings includes earnings of all employees, not just full time.

As for Australian made Dunlop volleys, they may be more expensive, but they would be better quality than the imported rubbish.

Sarcasm?

 

[rumpole]

You mean this youth unemployment? Looks lower to me. Maybe I'm being to glass half full.

View attachment 57149

Yes, underemployment is a problem, but I can't for the life of me understand how using taxpayer dollars to prop up companies selling cr@ppy cars will fix the problem.




Sarcasm?

Sarcasm was not intended. The last pair of joggers I bought (imported coz their are no Aus ones) lasted about a year. People of our technical prowess must be able to do better.

 

[noco]

As I've said before, he doesn't have to write a blank cheque.

Inject some capital into those businesses. For example, buy their plant and machinery and lease it back to them or give them secured loans. The sort of things other investors would do. And reserve some of our gas exports for local users at a reasonable price.

That would keep them going until some of the structural problems can be sorted.

rumpole, why don't you suggest to your comrades in the unions to buy and manage these unprofitable industries....they have plenty of money....it would be like commune sharing for the workers who could also take out shares with their redundancy payouts ($300,000 to $500.000)...your problem will be solved. I think it would a great idea...what do you think?

But please don't ask the taxpayers to help you out if you start losing money.

 

[rumpole]

rumpole, why don't you suggest to your comrades in the unions to buy and manage these unprofitable industries....they have plenty of money....it would be like commune sharing for the workers who could also take out shares with their redundancy payouts ($300,000 to $500.000)...your problem will be solved. I think it would a great idea...what do you think?

But please don't ask the taxpayers to help you out if you start losing money.

Fraid I don't know anyone in a union, but maybe you should ask some of your mates running car parts businesses what they are going to do when the car makers leave.

 

[noco]

Fraid I don't know anyone in a union, but maybe you should ask some of your mates running car parts businesses what they are going to do when the car makers leave.

So I pray, tell me dear rumpole, what are your solutions?

Inject more taxpayers money to prop up unprofitable overseas corporations?

I was hoping you would have commented on my idea of the unions and their members buying out Holden or Ford.

 

[sptrawler]

Fraid I don't know anyone in a union, but maybe you should ask some of your mates running car parts businesses what they are going to do when the car makers leave.

Probably the same as what, horse shoe manufacturers did when all the blacksmiths shut up shop.

The same as all the wool press manufacturers and wool mills did, when the downturn in wool industry happened.

The same as all the copper radiator repair shops did, when plastic/aluminium radiators became the norm.

Adapt, improvise, evolve or go out of business. Or would you still be pumping tax payers money into them, to keep them going?

 

[rumpole]

So I pray, tell me dear rumpole, what are your solutions?

Inject more taxpayers money to prop up unprofitable overseas corporations?

I was hoping you would have commented on my idea of the unions and their members buying out Holden or Ford.

Probably the best idea is to let the foreigners depart then start from scratch, building vehicles for the local market with appropriate tariffs until the business gets on its feet.

The public should have an input into the type of vehicle they want, judging by sales it would be a medium SUV type family car.

Finance this by a serious resource rent tax , like Norway's. Source as many parts from local parts suppliers as possible, have an eye to export sales and require purchase of a certain percentage of local vehicles by State, Federal and local governments.

 

[AAA]

Probably the best idea is to let the foreigners depart then start from scratch, building vehicles for the local market with appropriate tariffs until the business gets on its feet.

The public should have an input into the type of vehicle they want, judging by sales it would be a medium SUV type family car.

Finance this by a serious resource rent tax , like Norway's. Source as many parts from local parts suppliers as possible, have an eye to export sales and require purchase of a certain percentage of local vehicles by State, Federal and local governments.

We already pay more for cars than a lot of other countries do. An 'appropiate tariff ' would have to add a fair bit to the price to protect the new Australian car industry. Before Ford closed down a large % of government cars would have been holden and ford. Holden and Ford still lost money then in the Australian market.

Talk about flogging a dead horse!

 

[sptrawler]

Probably the best idea is to let the foreigners depart then start from scratch, building vehicles for the local market with appropriate tariffs until the business gets on its feet..

Noble sugestion.

The public should have an input into the type of vehicle they want, judging by sales it would be a medium SUV type family car..

Therein lies your problem.
10 years ago everyone wanted a large family car, today they want a medium sized SUV,
next year a small compact might be the flavour of the month.

Re tooling and making panel dies costs a fortune, that is where economies of scale comes in.
Australians buy 1million cars a year, that's all shapes and sizes.
Yet you are sugesting, we can re tool every time there is a change in consumer tastes and sell enough to cover our costs and compete with overseas products?

Finance this by a serious resource rent tax , like Norway's. Source as many parts from local parts suppliers as possible, have an eye to export sales and require purchase of a certain percentage of local vehicles by State, Federal and local governments.

To make it viable, you would have to block the importation of any overseas cars and legislate to only allow the purchase of an Australian car.
As AAA said most Govt cars are Aust, also 90% of Aust taxis would be Falcons and they're still not viable.

 

[rumpole]

Noble sugestion.



Therein lies your problem.
10 years ago everyone wanted a large family car, today they want a medium sized SUV,
next year a small compact might be the flavour of the month.

Re tooling and making panel dies costs a fortune, that is where economies of scale comes in.
Australians buy 1million cars a year, that's all shapes and sizes.
Yet you are sugesting, we can re tool every time there is a change in consumer tastes and sell enough to cover our costs and compete with overseas products?

You don't take into account emerging technology like 3D printing. It's not quite there yet for mass production, but there is no reason we can't be one of the first to develop its full potential. You don't change dies, you just change a computer program.

To make it viable, you would have to block the importation of any overseas cars and legislate to only allow the purchase of an Australian car.

I don't think so. People are looking for quality which is why Mercedes and BMW are so popular. We could compete on price against those makes using better technology than is currently in our old factories.
.

 

[AAA]

You don't take into account emerging technology like 3D printing. It's not quite there yet for mass production, but there is no reason we can't be one of the first to develop its full potential. You don't change dies, you just change a computer program.



I don't think so. People are looking for quality which is why Mercedes and BMW are so popular. We could compete on price against those makes using better technology than is currently in our old factories.
.

Would this be a privately owned or a government run business. Your average Australian consumer can't afford a merc or bmw

 

[noco]

Fraid I don't know anyone in a union, but maybe you should ask some of your mates running car parts businesses what they are going to do when the car makers leave.

As I have said before, if those car maker components companies have all their irons in the one fire, then they are not very good business people to be relying on one customer....those people are tooled up to make not only car components.