The Abbott Government

[noco]

Fair go DR, Syd is the only one here who really crunches the facts and dishes up really good info and opinion.

I don't think he is a real fan of Labor either but you are going to have to accept the current mob (Liberals) are in government and are really making a complete mess of it due to utter complete incompetence.


BTW great summery from Lenore


http://www.theguardian.com/australi...-despite-the-daily-battles-hes-losing-the-war

How about we look at how the LUG party have control of the senate ....obstructing progress as often as possible, in the national interest of course and pigs might fly.

Shorten has no interest in creating more jobs, just delay projects to make sure the unemployment rises to help denigrate the Liberal Government.....

Ah yes good old Ms Lenore Taylor from the Guardian....What else would you expect from a Fabian.

Wake up Ifocus, you know the LUG party are all about politics and could not care less about creating jobs.

 

[Tisme]

Fair go DR, Syd is the only one here who really crunches the facts and dishes up really good info and opinion.

not the only one, but I agree he is an enjoyable constructive poster, not a white anter.

I don't think he is a real fan of Labor either but you are going to have to accept the current mob (Liberals) are in government and are really making a complete mess of it due to utter complete incompetence.

There's a corporate understanding that the boss gets the trophy when things get good and he/she should accept the smack in the head when things go wrong under his/her watch. Politics seems to bring out the worst blind loyalty in people.

BTW great summery from Lenore

Tony Abbott's first two years: broken promises and confected 'wars' leave voters deeply unimpressed

Two years in and the Abbott government remains a clamor of battle slogans in search of a policy purpose. The prime minister keeps shaping up for confected daily fights without comprehending that is exactly why he is losing the political “war”.

This is the point in the three-year cycle when a functional government would be finishing the hard grind of doing what it promised at the last election and beginning the task of selling those achievements, and a few new ambitions, at the next one.

Confected should be replace with "contrived" . The Prime Minister has always been a bull54it artist; an hollow man who fills vacuums due to lack of more capable contenders.

 

[sydboy007]

How about we look at how the LUG party have control of the senate ....obstructing progress as often as possible, in the national interest of course and pigs might fly.

Shorten has no interest in creating more jobs, just delay projects to make sure the unemployment rises to help denigrate the Liberal Government.....

Ah yes good old Ms Lenore Taylor from the Guardian....What else would you expect from a Fabian.

Wake up Ifocus, you know the LUG party are all about politics and could not care less about creating jobs.

Hmmm

Labor has control of the senate. that's news to me. Lets do some fact checking on that.

The senate has 76 senators. 6 from each state and 2 from each mainland territory.

Labor has 25 seats. Coalition 33. Greens 10 and the rest to micro parties and independents. labor lost 6 seats while the coalition lost 1, so the senate moved more towards favouring the Coalition after the 2013 election.

So the coalition has 8 more seats than Labor, but you say Labor control the senate. Just exactly how does that work? If Abott worked with the Greens and or micro parties and independents Labor would never be able to block anything in the senate. I seem to remember the Rudd and Gillard Govts faced an even more hostile senate but were able to generally get policy through.

Labor has not blocked much in the senate at all. The odd time they really should have, like with the internet tax meta data retention laws they waved things through. When they voted against indexing fuel excise to CPI again, the greens voted with Abbott to achieve this.

The senate is not a rubber stamp. the Australian public has very rarely given either major party a majority in both houses, and the disaster of work choices shows they've been wise to ensure the senate is there to keep the Govt of the day from becoming too extreme. It's as much a protection for the public as it is for the political parties themselves.

lets examine your claim that Abbott has been out madly creating jobs for workers. I always thought it was the private sector that did the job creation, but seems I was wrong.

In July this year we had 11,810,700 people employed. 800,700 wee unemployed. 1,633.2 million hours worked in the month.

How does this compare with Abbott coming into office

In Oct 2013 there were 11,636,600 workers. 710,000 unemployed. 1,648.5 million hours worked.

So over the Abbott Govt we see an increase of 90,000 extra unemployed, offset by 184,000 people with jobs.

But wait, the average hours worked by each person for a month fell from 141.6 hours to 138.3 hours. This indicates to me that there has been flexibility within the labour market as rather than forcing more people to be unemployed, hours worked is being shared amongst the larger pool of workers.

Exactly what projects has Shorten delayed that would have lead to large increase in jobs?

 

[IFocus]

How about we look at how the LUG party have control of the senate ...

Actually they don't, Liberals have greater numbers and the cross bench are mainly right of center which make the current government look stupid that they cannot negotiate their polices through.


As I said this mob are really incompetent (leadership and front bench) other than a few standouts.


Plenty of talent on the backbench but none of it is religious or extreme right wing.

 

[IFocus]

not the only one, but I agree he is an enjoyable constructive poster, not a white anter.

Yes sorry Tisme you have put what I wanted to say with a greater degree of accuracy.

 

[noco]

Actually they don't, Liberals have greater numbers and the cross bench are mainly right of center which make the current government look stupid that they cannot negotiate their polices through.


As I said this mob are really incompetent (leadership and front bench) other than a few standouts.


Plenty of talent on the backbench but none of it is religious or extreme right wing.

So you honestly believe the LUG party have a history of good economic management......I would hate to have seen what the economy would be like now had the LUG party had had the reigns of our finances for the past two years.

 

[SirRumpole]

So you honestly believe the LUG party have a history of good economic management......I would hate to have seen what the economy would be like now had the LUG party had had the reigns of our finances for the past two years.

Yes, I would hate to see what the Australian economy would be like now if Labor hadn't stimulated it through the GFC.

And btw, it's only because of government spending on defence that we didn't have zero or negative growth in the last quarter.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comm...as-living-standards-slip-20150902-gjdi0t.html

 

[sydboy007]

So you honestly believe the LUG party have a history of good economic management......I would hate to have seen what the economy would be like now had the LUG party had had the reigns of our finances for the past two years.

So the deficit increasing by $111B is what you consider a good outcome?

Abbott, like Rudd, was squandered all his political capital on poorly implemented ideas and not listening to both his ministers and the voters.

The things Rudd could have done with his 2007 victory. The things Abbott possibly could have done. He may have got the respect he so desired if only he'd been less ideological and more pragmatic.

Alas we're stuck with captain pick after captain pick debacle. Taking part in a war near the opposite side of the world just so the PM can act macho. JoHo the treasurer telling us it's all good when we're facing around 100,000 high paying jobs disappearing by mid 2017, and it doesn't really matter how many new baristas and wait staff the tourism redeploys, the loss of income will wash through the entire economy. The Govt has set itself up to fail by budget time next year. The slight increase in the savings rate shows voterland is sensing the coming drought. To say Australia is not headed to recession, when real per capital NDI has been declining pretty much since 2011 means the majority of us already feel like we've been living in a recession for years.

I want the Liberals to win the next election. I want their full economic capabilities on display as Australia goes through the first recession in over a generation. i think a Labor Govt would handle the conditions of recession better than the Liberals, but sometimes you need a bit of pain for long term gain, and having voters realise that there's just as much economic and political ineptitude within the Coalition as their is in Labor would be a good thing. Then hopefully 3 word slogans wont cut it any more.

 

[noco]

Yes, I would hate to see what the Australian economy would be like now if Labor hadn't stimulated it through the GFC.

And btw, it's only because of government spending on defence that we didn't have zero or negative growth in the last quarter.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comm...as-living-standards-slip-20150902-gjdi0t.html

Are you saying the LUG Party did not waste $ billions during the GFC......I am sure a conservative government would have done twice as much with half the money wasted by the LUG Party.......Over priced Julia Gillard's memorial school schools, Kevin Rudds shambolic roof insulation with 4 deaths and a couple of hundred house fires with millions paid out in compensation and of course, lest we forget, the wasted $11 billion and still counting on Rudd and Gillard's open border policy with over 1200 men, women and children losing their lives at sea.

Oh yes the LUG party did a real good job 2007/2013 and aren't we still paying for it today?

Labor cut Defense spending to 1.8% of GDP...the lowest since 1938.......They did not place any orders on our own ship building industry in fact they bought some frigates from overseas.

I don't think you have anything to gloat about with Labors record....If I were you I would be ashamed to talk about it.

 

[drsmith]

lets get the full flow of how I see the conversation progressed



to which you replied



to which I replied



to which you replied



So how is it double standards when I blame Howard / labor / Abbott for the fiscal mess we're in?

You're the one who claimed that it's solely Labor Govts that tax and spend. I've shown that the Abbot Govt has continued to tax and spend. Howard was the biggest tax and spender of them all. The stats agree. the IMF agrees.

Where in that so-called "full flow" that you presented did I day that it's solely Labor Govts that tax and spend?

You're going to have to look very hard because you won't find it.

You've also raised the question of letting the former Labor Government off the hook while remaining critical of the prior Howard Government.

 

[SirRumpole]

I want the Liberals to win the next election. I want their full economic capabilities on display as Australia goes through the first recession in over a generation. i think a Labor Govt would handle the conditions of recession better than the Liberals, but sometimes you need a bit of pain for long term gain, and having voters realise that there's just as much economic and political ineptitude within the Coalition as their is in Labor would be a good thing. Then hopefully 3 word slogans wont cut it any more.

How long have you been a sado-masochist ?

 

[noco]

So the deficit increasing by $111B is what you consider a good outcome?

Abbott, like Rudd, was squandered all his political capital on poorly implemented ideas and not listening to both his ministers and the voters.

The things Rudd could have done with his 2007 victory. The things Abbott possibly could have done. He may have got the respect he so desired if only he'd been less ideological and more pragmatic.

Alas we're stuck with captain pick after captain pick debacle. Taking part in a war near the opposite side of the world just so the PM can act macho. JoHo the treasurer telling us it's all good when we're facing around 100,000 high paying jobs disappearing by mid 2017, and it doesn't really matter how many new baristas and wait staff the tourism redeploys, the loss of income will wash through the entire economy. The Govt has set itself up to fail by budget time next year. The slight increase in the savings rate shows voterland is sensing the coming drought. To say Australia is not headed to recession, when real per capital NDI has been declining pretty much since 2011 means the majority of us already feel like we've been living in a recession for years.

I want the Liberals to win the next election. I want their full economic capabilities on display as Australia goes through the first recession in over a generation. i think a Labor Govt would handle the conditions of recession better than the Liberals, but sometimes you need a bit of pain for long term gain, and having voters realise that there's just as much economic and political ineptitude within the Coalition as their is in Labor would be a good thing. Then hopefully 3 word slogans wont cut it any more.

I think you are being a little bit one sided here.

Firstly, you rave on about the increased deficit but you don't take into consideration the legacy carried over from the Labor Party and had the Liberals stopped spending, the economy would have come to a grinding halt just as what is happening in Queensland with the Labor government at the present time...unemployment rising...business confidence at an all time low....building and construction down....A Labor government taking daily instructions from the CFMEU...A premier who has no plan or any ideas as to how to pay back the debt left by the previous Beattie/ Bligh goverment.

Secondly you do not give any credit to the stimulus given to small business and the return which will be gained from the FTA with Japan, South Korea and China, something the Labor Party talked about but took no action because it was all too hard for them.....These things take time to take full affect so i think you should be reasonable and give it a fair chance without pulling things to pieces typical of the Labor Party who only want to play down the economy....No doubt if Labor are returned to office in 2016, they will receive the benefit and will ultimately claim it as their success.

BTW...what poorly implemented Abbott ideas are you talking about?

 

[SirRumpole]

and had the Liberals stopped spending, the economy would have come to a grinding halt

OK, it's fine when the Liberals spend, but a waste of money when Labor spend ?

 

[Smurf1976]

Economically we seem to have pretty much dropped the ball when it comes to reform.

Hawke and Keating (Labor) were big on it and much was done. Hewson (Liberal) never became PM but he certainly had some big ideas for change, some of which were ultimately implemented by Howard (Liberal).

Since that time the wheels seem to have fallen off. It happened under Howard but Rudd, Gillard and Abbott have failed to put them back on.

Politically, both major parties have dropped the ball here. Both have gone from a focus on the future to a focus on the present.

I blame the mining and housing booms. We've become drunk on the flow of money from that source and have failed to do what's necessary for the long term when the boom inevitably fades. Now we've got falling prices for minerals, a few mines here and there closing, and house prices looking somewhat iffy. Trouble is, we forgot about the need for a plan B and that goes for politicians of all persuasions.

I do not wish to see a recession given the misery it will inevitably cause for a great many ordinary people. But I feel that it has become an unfortunate but inevitable outcome necessary in order to refocus the nation's attention.

As for which party can best deal with the situation, there are no quick fixes and as such the duration and depth of recession won't likely change much with Labor or Liberal. Any difference is more likely to be in how they deal with the social effects of mass unemployment.

On that point Labor should do better at least in theory although with the current "leadership" I'm far from convinced. That said, ideological Abbott and "get a better job" Hockey are the last people you want in charge if you're unemployed and there's 2000 people lined up out the door, down the street and around the block all hoping to get the one job as a night shift cleaner.

 

[SirRumpole]

Since that time the wheels seem to have fallen off. It happened under Howard but Rudd, Gillard and Abbott have failed to put them back on.

True, but one good thing that Rudd did was to establish Infrastructure Australia as an independent body to recommend and finance necessary infrastructure.

Abbott undid all that good work when he repoliticised IA and decided he knew better than the experts where to spend our money. Like that road in Victoria that people then decided maybe they didn't need after all.

 

[sydboy007]

I think you are being a little bit one sided here.

Firstly, you rave on about the increased deficit but you don't take into consideration the legacy carried over from the Labor Party and had the Liberals stopped spending, the economy would have come to a grinding halt just as what is happening in Queensland with the Labor government at the present time...unemployment rising...business confidence at an all time low....building and construction down....A Labor government taking daily instructions from the CFMEU...A premier who has no plan or any ideas as to how to pay back the debt left by the previous Beattie/ Bligh goverment.

Secondly you do not give any credit to the stimulus given to small business and the return which will be gained from the FTA with Japan, South Korea and China, something the Labor Party talked about but took no action because it was all too hard for them.....These things take time to take full affect so i think you should be reasonable and give it a fair chance without pulling things to pieces typical of the Labor Party who only want to play down the economy....No doubt if Labor are returned to office in 2016, they will receive the benefit and will ultimately claim it as their success.

BTW...what poorly implemented Abbott ideas are you talking about?

* Labor we in office during the largest fall in global economic growth since pretty much the great depression. There was no way to not produce a deficit during that period. i am not arguing they did a perfect job. i am arguing that to blame them for the total deficit is not rational nor fair. It's also not particularly fair or rational to blame the Liberals for the increase of $111B in debt since they came to office, but if it's good to blame Labor then it's euqally good to blame the Liberals.

* There has never been any rigorous study as to the benefit of FTAs to Australia. over 10 years since the US FTA was signed and we have no idea if we're better off from it or not. we do know that the PBS is paying out over $200M a year in extra costs due tot eh extension of patents. I believe Labor were unwilling to sign some of the FTAs due to various clauses they felt were not in the national interest. I don't believe allowing the possibility of thousands of Chinese workers with no proof as to their qualifications onto projects in Australia should be an option of any agreement. The complexity of the rules of origin of each FTA is a nightmare for small businesses. Each FTA can potentially have hundresds of clauses in determining if a good will be classified as Australian or not. Most SMEs find the cost too great so don't bother using the FTAs. Multinationals love them.

We also have the issues around the very LLOOONG times it takes for aussie farmers to get much access from the FTA. The US FTA has provided little yet on that score and wont till past 2020. The Japan FTA is similar with many of the agricultural sectors totally off limits. An area we have a decent competitive advantage in but it always seems to be the one area of the economy that is jettisoned to get the photo opp of signing a new trade agreement.

The other issue I have with FTAs is the trade diversion and loss of income. Because you remove a tarrif from country A the imported price is now lower than country B that does not have an FTA with Australia. So now we buy the more expensive product from country A and lose the tax revenue so we suffer an economic loss.

* As for Abbott's poorly thought out ideas. We had the medicare doctor levy to create that wonderful $20B medical slush fund. we had the stupidly expensive PPL. We had major changes to University funding. we had waiting for 6 months for unemployment benefits for the under 30s. We have Abbott blocking any reform on CGT, NG and super.

So in your own mind, what are Abbott's achievements? He hasn't slowed the increase in the deficit. He's killed off most renewable energy investment at a time when the mining boom construction is falling over. He's sat on the tax white paper for how many months with an increase in the GST as his only idea, excepting for saying no to a few of the suggestions. I feel less secure about my job than I did in 2013, and I don't think I'm alone in that. There's an extra 90,000 people looking for work, so if you lose your job you're going to be fighting with plenty of people for the ones on offer.

Do I think Shorten will be much better? Nothing makes me think so. He's not provided much in the way of policy alternatives, has tried to block some sensible revenue options like the indexation of fuel excise and is in denial about the affordability of the pension. But then Abbott is denial about the affordability of super tax expenditures, and totally out of touch with what's going on in the rest of the world in terms of coal becoming the tobacco of the energy industry.

 

[orr]

I think you are being a little bit one sided here.



BTW...what poorly implemented Abbott ideas are you talking about?

I've pulled my head out of Satyajit Das's 'A Banquet of Consequences' after a laugh at the end of the first paragraph on pg59, to have a cup of tea and run an eye down the latest day or so of comments here.... Then this; with absolutely no sense of irony... incredulous!

With regard free trade... younger people of this country might want to think more seriously about a home veggie patch.

 

[IFocus]

Why is Abbott going to start bombing Syria?

Government taking Syria air strike request 'very seriously', Tony Abbott says as Defence Minister Kevin Andrews backs move




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...australia-extends-air-strikes-reports/6752046


When this bloke says its bad

Bombing raids in Syria would be illegal and disastrous, former ADF General Peter Gration warns


Retired General Gration, who was the Commander of the ADF from 1987 to 1993, told The World Today the move would be "inviting disaster".

"I believe this would be a strategically bad decision; in fact I would call this strategically dumb," he said.

"To commit us to what is complex and confused war with a centuries old religious conflict between the Sunnis and the [Shiites], the underlying issue, I think is really inviting disaster."

Retired General Gration said the US air strikes in Syria had not stopped IS and Australia's contribution would be "at best a marginal increase".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-...-invite-disaster-former-adf-head-says/6750638

 

[noco]

OK, it's fine when the Liberals spend, but a waste of money when Labor spend ?

It is not a matter of talking just about spending but how it is spent, whether it would be wasted by the Labor Party or spent wisely by the Liberals Party.

There is a major contrast between the two parties and I know who has the better record.

 

[sydboy007]

It is not a matter of talking just about spending but how it is spent, whether it would be wasted by the Labor Party or spent wisely by the Liberals Party.

There is a major contrast between the two parties and I know who has the better record.

So the $111B in deficit spending the Liberals have provided the economy, how was it spent wisely?

I don't believe the infrastructure PM has gave us much. Certainly the NBN is crawling along. Renewable energy infrastructure has stalled. Definitely no rail projects funded.

To say the Liberals would always spend wisely seems to forget the allowance scandals, forgets the infrastructure projects Abbott said he'd do a CBA on before investing in, broker that promise before the election, and never had the guts to let IA actually do an audit and confirm we were getting value for money. You continually complain of Labor not backing the economically irresponsible $1M per meter tunnel in Melbourne, a tunnel that was forecast to generate a net negative return on the investment. If I said to you Noco I have an investment opportunity. For every $1 you invest I'll return to you 55c what would you say? But when Abbott says he'll fund a tunnel with that kind of return you consider it to be spent wisely.

We're slowly going broke. The last thing we can afford is to "invest" in infrastructure that doesn't generate a positive return to the economy. IA has quite a few projects on it's books that would provide a decent return, but so far Abbott has shown no interest in investing in them. Why do you think that is?