Suicide and Voluntary Euthanasia

[Knobby22]

Yes, good points.

Maybe Ruby's Mum just doesn't want to think about dying.

 

[Ruby]

You are probably right Knobby. I think a lot of people don't want to think about dying, and therin lies the problem. In life we all tend to put off doing things that are difficult and uncomfortable or which don't seem urgent. Perhaps avoiding the whole dying thing is an extension of that.

I think too, that there are still some older people who are stuck in a time warp, when it was 'impolite' to discuss certain subjects, and it is hard for them to discard a lifetime of ingrained teaching and habits. I was told as a child that "one never discusses sex, religion or politics". That net also seemed to include anything deeply personal.

It is healthy to have the issue brought out in the open and to be having discussion about it.

 

[Julia]

Maybe Ruby's Mum just doesn't want to think about dying.

Knobby, I don't think any of us want to think about dying. I certainly don't. But unless we do consider it we can end up suffering in ways we'd want to avoid. Do you, e.g. if there's no hope of your survival, want your life prolonged by artificial feeding, hydration, a machine to simulate breathing?
Is your family going to enjoy seeing you like that? Isn't it just stretching out the whole miserable event of your dying?

And in a purely practical sense, is it reasonable that the incredibly expensive intensive care costs should be going to this illogical process when that money could be better spent on someone who will recover?

If you read the letter quoted above (and a year or so ago I read a great book by an intensive care physician very much along the same lines), the staff want you to make their decisions easier by simply thinking about death when you're in a position to do so with all your faculties, and taking the simple step of completing a form with your instructions.

Makes it easier for your family and easier for the medical staff. The form leaves you plenty of room to write in special instructions in addition to the pre-printed Yes/No questions.

I found as soon as I'd done it (and you need to do it with your GP: he completes one part of it), it was easier to stop worrying about what might happen.

And we shouldn't be thinking it's only when we're old that we need to give attention to this. Anyone can have a serious accident any minute, and be faced with non-survival.

 

[Logique]

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Health/2010/11/03 Euthanasia_talks_in_Brisbane_534126.html

Euthanasia talks in Brisbane Wednesday, November 03, 2010

Two leading voluntary euthanasia advocates will be in Brisbane on Wednesday promoting overseas legislation that gives the right to choose to die.

Belgian oncologist Professor Jan Bernheim and Neil Francis, from the newly formed Australian alliance YourLastRight.com, will talk about voluntary euthanasia legislation in the USA and Belgium and how it could work in Australia at a public meeting at 2.30pm (AEST)at Lennons Hotel, in the Queen Street mall.

 

[Calliope]

Euthanasia is a DIY procedure and it is not an area for politicians and bureaucrats to be meddling in.

The drug of choice for euthanasia enthusiasts is Nembutal, but of course it can't be purchased in this country where its possession is illegal.

The recreational drug of choice for Australians is methamphetamine. It is illegal too, but enthusiasts set up DIY factories to manufacture it, and they can sell all they make for excellent returns, and apparently at very little risk.

It seems to me that there is scope for some enterprising and understanding souls to follow the same course with Nembutal, and thus save consumers a trip to Mexico, and bringing it back illegally.

 

[Calliope]

A TEACHER today became the first Queenslander to be jailed for aiding a suicide after he was convicted of helping his elderly friend to die by taking an animal anaesthetic.

Justice Jean Dalton ordered Merin Nielsen, 50, serve three years in prison, to be eligible for parole on August 15.

In a Queensland first, a Supreme Court jury in Brisbane took 2 1/2 days to find Nielsen, 50, of Mt Nebo, guilty of aiding Frank Ward , 76, to kill himself at Clayfield, on June 20, 2009.

Prosecutor Todd Fuller said yesterday there were no precedent cases in Queensland but there were some in Victoria, Tasmania and NSW.

He said general deterrence rather than individual deterrence was a major factor.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...f-elderly-friend/story-e6freoof-1226272620644

 

[DB008]

Euthanasia is a DIY procedure and it is not an area for politicians and bureaucrats to be meddling in.

Yep. It' an individuals right.


Wiki

Human euthanasia

Pentobarbital has also been used for physician-assisted suicide. In the US state of Oregon "oral doses of a barbiturate" have been used for this purpose.[6]

In Switzerland, the only country that allows foreigners to have assisted suicide, the Dignitas clinic uses the antiemetic drug metoclopramide followed by sodium pentobarbital for the procedure.[7] It is also used in the Netherlands, and was used n the Northern Territory of Australia during the brief period in which euthanasia was permitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentobarbital

Suppose if your desperate, you could always buy a 1 way ticket to Switzerland?

But that's not so convenient in every situation?

 

[pixel]

Yep. It' an individuals right.

Suppose if your desperate, you could always buy a 1 way ticket to Switzerland?
But that's not so convenient in every situation?

Not only is it not convenient, but I find it disgusting that supposedly civilised country like Australia should force its terminally ill (or simply world-weary) citizens to spend a fortune on (at least two) tickets half around the world, just so they can end their suffering in a dignified and "legal" manner.

"Butt out, politicians and self-anointed apostles of morals for others!"

When, why, and how I want to leave this world is nobody else's bluddy business but mine.

I concede that the process has to be formalised, by way of a kind of "Living Will" to be independently witnessed. By all means, have it notarised by a JP or the person's GP - mainly to prevent a friendly gold-digger helping grampaw or nan make up their mind...

But once that precaution has been satisfied, all it should take is for me to ask a GP or Pharmacist for a prescription.

Like Jubal Harshaw (alter ego of R.A.Heinlein) put it in "Stranger in a Strange Land" -

One For The Road

There's amnesia in a hang knot,
And comfort in the ax,
But the simple way of poison will make your nerves relax.

There's surcease in a gunshot,
And sleep that comes from racks,
But a handy draft of poison avoids the harshest tax.

You find rest upon the hot squat,
Or gas can give you pax,
But the closest corner chemist has peace in packaged stacks.

There's refuge in the church lot
When you tire of facing facts,
And the smoothest route is poison prescribed by kindly quacks.

Chorus: With an ugh! and a groan, and a kick of the heels,
Death comes quiet, or it comes with squeals””
But the pleasantest place to find your end
Is a cup of cheer from the hand of a friend.

 

[JTLP]

TBH - I'm kind of torn on the issue.

Very recently my grandfather passed away from dementia - he had it for 7 odd years. He was an amazing person through and through - and a very dignified soul. Had he been of sound mind and body - he may have chosen euthanasia to pass with dignity and respect. My father believes that euthanasia would have been the best option also - to allow somebody to use the facilities that my grandfather was using.

But here is the catch - would you really want to bundle all your family (and we are a big family) into a room and say "hey everybody...I've decided on xyz date that I'm going to end it...say your goodbyes now". It would make for a very confronting and difficult situation. It sounds easy in principle - but I think the process of 'dying' - as awful as it is for terminal illnesses - allows for people to slowly grieve and accept what has happened - as well as those around them. It also gives people time to repent/love again/rectify any situation etc that they may see fit.

Plus there is the added moral conflict of a JP or GP or whoever signing the declaration to end life. Plus the Pharmacist or nurse mixing the lethal concoction and handing it over to whoever. You can just imagine the red tape "have you told your family?" "you do realize you only get 1 shot at this?" "have you organized for somebody to pick up your body?" etc etc

Conclusion - I probably lead more to natural time of death. As I said I understand the gravity of terminal illnesses but having time to say goodbye to someone very dear to me meant a lot...deterioration or not.

 

[Julia]

TBH - I'm kind of torn on the issue.

Very recently my grandfather passed away from dementia - he had it for 7 odd years. He was an amazing person through and through - and a very dignified soul. Had he been of sound mind and body - he may have chosen euthanasia to pass with dignity and respect. My father believes that euthanasia would have been the best option also - to allow somebody to use the facilities that my grandfather was using.

I'm very sorry to hear about your grandfather, JTLP.

But here is the catch - would you really want to bundle all your family (and we are a big family) into a room and say "hey everybody...I've decided on xyz date that I'm going to end it...say your goodbyes now".

Yes, absolutely. Why not? It should be totally about the person who is dying, not about what makes those left behind feel more comfortable!

It would make for a very confronting and difficult situation. It sounds easy in principle - but I think the process of 'dying' - as awful as it is for terminal illnesses - allows for people to slowly grieve and accept what has happened - as well as those around them. It also gives people time to repent/love again/rectify any situation etc that they may see fit.

You will likely develop a different view as you get older and can see the situation from the reality of someone who is old, sick and exhausted.

Plus there is the added moral conflict of a JP or GP or whoever signing the declaration to end life. Plus the Pharmacist or nurse mixing the lethal concoction and handing it over to whoever.

Such a scenario is entirely unlikely and totally fanciful. No way would a JP be ever given responsibility for such a situation, or just a GP either. It's quite possible to draft legislation that puts in place very adequate safeguards and requires the agreement of three qualified people, e.g. a psychiatrist, and two other doctors.

You can just imagine the red tape "have you told your family?" "you do realize you only get 1 shot at this?" "have you organized for somebody to pick up your body?" etc etc

It would never be so ridiculously casual. You make it sound like buying a bottle of Coke.

Conclusion - I probably lead more to natural time of death. As I said I understand the gravity of terminal illnesses but having time to say goodbye to someone very dear to me meant a lot...deterioration or not.

Again, you are rather selfishly looking at this from your own point of view, rather than that of the person who is in pain and misery.

 

[pixel]

... but that's my point:
It shouldn't take "Red Tape" and endless questions. And quite frankly, Doctors ought to be able to handle the moral dilemma of "playing God"; there is only a small adjustment between their taking the responsibility to condemn an incurable patient to more weeks of suffering, vs allowing them to "be cured" of it.

Yes, I get your point about how can the family deal with it. But isn't there also an issue of compassion and allowing a loved-one the personal choice when to say their Good-Bye? It does require a paradigm shift - and restraint from the leaders of our established religions. As long as they keep mumbling about God's Will and Sanctity of Life, that change won't come easy. See the "Religion is Crazy" thread.
Since I have decided to assume responsibility for my own life decisions, I don't believe that I (or anyone else) can deny a family member the right to choose the time. In a close-knit family, it would hardly be a secret that someone had made a Living Will. In our family, we don't keep such important issues a secret. But that also means, when one or the other would decide it's time, it won't be a secret. The family members that matter would certainly know - and have time to get used to the facts that cause the decision.

A very dear friend of ours was diagnosed with brain tumor. She and her husband put the questions to the Doctor: How long? What treatment? What prognosis? What quality of life during the time of treatment?
Weighing up the options, Hubby sold the family business and took his beloved on a world cruise while she could still enjoy it. They came back when the symptoms put a stop to it. They visited family and friends around the country one last time and we said farewell. Not once did the thought arise that she should have spent the time instead in hospital, undergoing risky operations that might actually shorten her time of independence, and suffering through radio and chemo.
Did the family grieve? I'm sure they did. But the sadness was very much alleviated by the knowledge that their mother, aunt, sister, friend... could enjoy a great holiday before taking the last step on her terms. Dignity. Courage and Dignity. No Regrets.

PS: Julia, +1
ours crossed obviously. The terms "selfish" and "comfortable for others" had crossed my mind too.
... but I decided to give JTLP the benefit of the doubt, rather than judging him/her too harshly.

 

[Glen48]

How much is going on in hospitals we can never know.
Maybe some way the person can press a button on a injection machine when they feel ready (if capable ) as well as a safety button if they suddenly change their mind, also why not have it on your licence like the donor program and you can decide when you are younger.
But like every thing else it will never come to pass while we have do gooders around.

 

[Logique]

...A very dear friend of ours was diagnosed with brain tumor...Not once did the thought arise that she should have spent the time instead in hospital, undergoing risky operations that might actually shorten her time of independence, and suffering through radio and chemo....

Great post Pixel, highlighting an enlightened and contemporary approach, I admire the couple that went on a holiday instead.

 

[Calliope]

I think it should be obvious by now that we can't leave the arrangements for our final exit in the hands of a second ot third party, nor can we arrange the peaceful exit of loved ones. To do so is to risk incarceration. If the good Samaritan is a beneficiary of the deceased person (and why wouldn't they be?) it will also be labelled motive.

To devise a DOY kit that will deliver a painless, peaceful and tidy exit sittnig in you favourite armchair is not rocket science, nor is it expensive. All it requires is a lttlle research and dedication to the concept.

My only sister died ten days ago after years of crippling arthritis and dementia. She died after a year in the best care facility that money could buy, but her quality of life was non-existant, and her trauma deeply affected the lives of her husband and children.

To avoid this trauma we should make preparations before we lose our cognitive abilities.

 

[Julia]

PS: Julia, +1
ours crossed obviously. The terms "selfish" and "comfortable for others" had crossed my mind too.
... but I decided to give JTLP the benefit of the doubt, rather than judging him/her too harshly.

You're right, pixel. And JTLP, my apologies for the harsh response toward your post.
It's a subject I feel strongly about having witnessed two loved family members struggle with hideous suffering before eventually committing suicide.

My grandmother had a bone disease which caused her severe and unremitting pain over many years. She could not walk, only crawl, had lost her sight so could no longer experience the pleasure of reading or even watching television. She was unable to wash or feed herself. A strongly independent woman, this was crushing and humiliating for her and she pleaded with us to help her die on many occasions.

I seriously considered giving the help she so wanted but the likelihood of being jailed for assisting a suicide overcame my desire to help end her misery.

One Sunday I went to visit her and found the house empty. She had managed to crawl outside and drown herself in a tub of filthy water behind the garage. We had all forgotten about the ancient laundry tub dumped there when it was replaced in the laundry.

By the time I found her the flies were crawling all over her. I will never forget their buzzing frenzy.

My father also killed himself in a manner that I'm can't bring myself to discuss.
He would have suffered horribly in the process. I learned about it from the police arriving at my door early one morning asking me to come and identify the body.

It shouldn't take "Red Tape" and endless questions. And quite frankly, Doctors ought to be able to handle the moral dilemma of "playing God"; there is only a small adjustment between their taking the responsibility to condemn an incurable patient to more weeks of suffering, vs allowing them to "be cured" of it.

Pixel, I agree entirely for myself, you and others like us. But I'm also conscious of the level of elder abuse in our society and how easily old, frail and vulnerable people could be persuaded by greedy relatives to get out of the way.

This is the basis for the cliched 'slippery slope' argument put forward by those who are opposed to euthanasia and it's not without validity imo.

It does require a paradigm shift - and restraint from the leaders of our established religions. As long as they keep mumbling about God's Will and Sanctity of Life, that change won't come easy.

Hence the current stalemate. Approximately 85% of the population in repeated surveys have agreed with voluntary euthanasia. However, the minority against it are emphatically so for religious and other reasons. As long as our politicians e.g. Rudd and Abbott, just as two examples, have any say, we will not see any change to the current laws.

Since I have decided to assume responsibility for my own life decisions, I don't believe that I (or anyone else) can deny a family member the right to choose the time.

Ideally your wishes, properly expressed, should be all that is necessary.
But, given at present your clearly expressed written wishes can be overridden by your partner or offspring, even just on the issue of organ donation if you were to die naturally, the reality is that you cannot be sure that your wishes will be honoured.
Yes, this is absolutely wrong, but it's how the situation stands at present.

In a close-knit family, it would hardly be a secret that someone had made a Living Will. In our family, we don't keep such important issues a secret. But that also means, when one or the other would decide it's time, it won't be a secret. The family members that matter would certainly know - and have time to get used to the facts that cause the decision.

Completely agree. But I also think that family members with possibly an innate opposition to anything other than a 'natural' death could deny you what they have previously agreed, especially when faced with the reality of your death, rather than a distant hypothetical situation.

A very dear friend of ours was diagnosed with brain tumor. She and her husband put the questions to the Doctor: How long? What treatment? What prognosis? What quality of life during the time of treatment?
Weighing up the options, Hubby sold the family business and took his beloved on a world cruise while she could still enjoy it. They came back when the symptoms put a stop to it. They visited family and friends around the country one last time and we said farewell. Not once did the thought arise that she should have spent the time instead in hospital, undergoing risky operations that might actually shorten her time of independence, and suffering through radio and chemo.

Great story. I've never been able to understand why people will endure the misery of the side effects of chemo and/or radiation to gain perhaps a few months more of life.
But then again, perhaps I would feel differently if I was ever in such a situation. Then maybe death might be such an overwhelming thought, I might also clutch at some additional time.

I think it should be obvious by now that we can't leave the arrangements for our final exit in the hands of a second ot third party, nor can we arrange the peaceful exit of loved ones. To do so is to risk incarceration. If the good Samaritan is a beneficiary of the deceased person (and why wouldn't they be?) it will also be labelled motive.

Yes.

My only sister died ten days ago after years of crippling arthritis and dementia. She died after a year in the best care facility that money could buy, but her quality of life was non-existant, and her trauma deeply affected the lives of her husband and children.

I'm very sorry about your sister, Calliope. This is the sort of situation, especially the dementia, that is so utterly ignored by the anti-euthanasia brigade. They rabbit on about how most pain can be dealt with etc, but fail to acknowledge the side effects, and give no credence to the degradation and loss of dignity experienced when a person can no longer even use a toilet.

 

[JTLP]

Without multi quoting - thanks for your sympathies Julia and I'm glad that Pixel asked that you don't be too harsh on myself (I fear I may have been a bit brash back - would not have been nice to do to someone whom I admire on these forums ).

You could well be right - I am young and thankfully have not had to really deal with it. I'm not a big religious person (Buddhist actually ) and whilst I respect that life is our decision - the complexity and enormity of the situation is perhaps too much for me to comprehend at the moment. I'm sure that once life goes on I may begin to formulate a different opinion - but for now I know my stance.

Pixel - Very interesting take on what your friends did. Do you mind me asking how old the lady was?
Calliope - Sorry for your loss.
Julia - That was a haunting story about your grandmother and I'm sorry it ended that way for her.

 

[Glen48]

The only good thing I have seen so far is any one convicted gets a light sentence which shows the courts don't that it to seriously but still a long way to go so the invidual has choice to be or not to be.

 

[pixel]

Pixel - Very interesting take on what your friends did. Do you mind me asking how old the lady was?

JTLP, does age really matter in such a situation?
If the verdict is "terminal", I believe there is no big difference between 26 and 62.
But fwiw, in this case we're talking a couple not yet of "pension age", but with adult children, who were living independently with children of their own; and the entire extended family supported their parents. As did their friends.

Had she "fought it" and allowed the doctors to extend her life, we would have supported her just the same. Think Jane McGrath and others like her.

That's not the issue here. The point is, if someone is struck down by a condition that takes away their own sense of dignity and purpose, it is up to the person to decide how to handle it. If a friend were to ask my opinion, I would try and be as objective as possible; ask whether they want to consider the benefit to their children, as in Jane's case, of having their mother a few months or years longer. But also consider the impact a prolonged suffering would have on them. Does the person feel strong enough to stay level-headed? Is the partner strong and supportive enough? What part of their personality will be affected? To a ballet dancer, the loss of a leg could be catastrophic and make life unbearable. To a highly intelligent person, it might be the threat of Alzheimers or Dementia.

Let's leave it there. The fundamental "wisdom" I have picked up in close to "three score and ten" years, is this: Never tell another person how to live their life. Never judge anybody by your own standard. Find out theirs instead. Then be supportive, but respect their personal freedom.

 

[Julia]

Never tell another person how to live their life. Never judge anybody by your own standard. Find out theirs instead. Then be supportive, but respect their personal freedom.

Pixel, clearly your almost three score and ten has not been wasted if those years have given you the wisdom to offer the above advice. Well said, thank you.

 

[JTLP]

JTLP, does age really matter in such a situation?

Of course it does - no disrespect to your friend so I'll speak in the general sense - but if you were young and diagnosed as terminal I think you would feel robbed and try and fight it all you could - knowing there should theoretically be a lot of life left in you. Maybe you'd sit there hoping and wishing for a breakthrough or something (not that anyone of any age wouldn't)...

Being older probably means you've done a lot of what you've wanted to do so it's slightly easier to accept. Obviously not as black & white as I make it but I'm assuming the consensus from my forum peers is that the older you get the more you accept (in this sense) and not wanting to burden others.

Hopefully I've not offended and we can continue rationally...