Scalping the HSI & the K200 (SIM)

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Have you ever looked at thicker markets? Maybe its easier for me to learn this on a thicker market like Bonds, or the ES??

Maybe i just should give Monday's a MISS!!!!

CanOz

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Have you ever looked at thicker markets? Maybe its easier for me to learn this on a thicker market

learn what though is the question?

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

learn what though is the question?

Good bloody question!!!

Seriously i can see many times when the DAX just won't go Bid, or won't go Offer at a critical point, or i can see that i should take profits when the markets drops like a rock and then a big lot hits the bid and there are just no more sellers left...but honestly, i just rarely see that in the HSI, or i am looking for the wrong things in that market, that's why i think i should just stick with the DAX, at least I'm starting to get to know it, whereas the HSI is just plain nuts!

I can see why you only trade one market.

CanOz

 

[dionysustoast]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Interesting. I only really watch at predetermined price levels & time periods.

:bong:

Most do - but do you not think you need to watch it on it's own to pick up the skill in the first place?

I looked @ HSI last week - actually, CanOz showed me. Looks like a tough game DOM wise.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Most do - but do you not think you need to watch it on it's own to pick up the skill in the first place?

Personally I think you need to know what pattern/s or type of market or even why/when you want to trade then just use the DOM to see them develop. Rather than wait for them to show up on your chart and react after they have printed and started to move.

From time to time you can see bots operating, not just arb bots but ones that will move the market significantly across the day. But I wouldn't be basing my trading career around that. I'd try and find an approach that makes sense, not like H & S patterns or Breakouts etc. Something that shows up in your market, in the timeframe you watch and makes sense. Then go about finding how that develops in the DOM and use the DOM to get an advantageous entry and exit.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Classic DOM pattern of a false break just then. Will come back latter to post a chart.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Classic DOM pattern of a false break just then. Will come back latter to post a chart.

Ok here was a ripper. I mostly just fade...... everything

So we had a strong up trust on volume to new daily highs then a pull back and a drift up to the highs again where I got short at 1. It started to go my way then all of a sudden the offers above my entry cleared out and what was there got hit very quickly, including by me who moved it to a new high in a sweep at the very start of the 1 min bar. It looked like a setup for a big sweep and serious breakout. I covered at a small loss, at 2, what turned out to be the high for the day . BUT right after that the Book just got stuffed big time with offers cascading down at each price level so I hit out again and got short with extra size at 3. literally 6 seconds later.

Have a look at how the bar finished. Then have a look at where you would of entered if looking at the chart, 20 ticks lower. Then that was the same game at the test...

up trend all over. ripper!!

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Nice, appreciate the illustration TH. I think i got stopped out trying to fade the spike....then i got long thinking...'what are doing fading the trend like this??'

CanOz

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Nice, appreciate the illustration TH. I think i got stopped out trying to fade the spike....then i got long thinking...'what are doing fading the trend like this??'

CanOz

So my point is I know what chart setup I'm looking for to fade. I used the DOM action to re-enter that setup at a very tight stop level that greatly helped my R:R. Thats what I reckon the DOM is for.

 

[History Repeats]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

good post Trembling Hand. Also it seems i'm on the right track with my research, in regards to using the tape to reduce entry/exit risk.

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

I got into this trade because price came down and tagged the MA again, but i stayed in the trade because of the iceberg that appeared on the bid after i had been in for a few minutes. Had 3 contracts, took two off and let the third run...until just before lunch.

CanOz

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Its been a little quiet the last hour or so on the K200 so i wandered over to honkers for a look. Its the first time for a couple of days that I've looked at it. Now that I've been trading the DAX and CL more, I'm starting to be able to see where the pressure is. For example the HSI had just retraced a little off 19178. A big lot hit 19204 so i started watching for it to break lower. Slowly the offers got 'heavy'. Then they were reluctant to drop down to the bid, just hanging there almost saying 'come up here and buy some!", several points higher...they wanted to sell higher. After they did that for a while the price dropped and the bids got thinner as we went down. This was happening really slowly, as far as the HSI goes.

So some of things i now look for in the DOM, that I've learned only over the last couple of weeks really, are:

1.) Icebergs - constant refreshing on the inside bid or ask. Looks like the opposite on the Tape, but keeps getting refreshed. Need to see how the depth reacts to this before just taking a position most of the time.

2.) Whether or not the size on the depth is sticking or not. Are they just spoofing or are they serious and not budging? If they are not budging on the offer, as an example... then the depth should appear 'heavy' on the offer, and refuses to lift very far. The limit orders just keep filling in and few get pulled. Once there are no more buyers prepared to hit the offer the price drops, if the bid starts pulling their bids off quickly it may drop another level.

3.) One of the most valuable things I've learned this week is how long to stay in a trade. I try and use a measured type of move to estimate where i can expect to exit. This doesn't always work though, so I'll keep an eye on the depth. if they're pulling, trying to get thier orders out of the way, or the depth seems thin, then I'll stay in. If the depth thickens up then I'll start to think about an exit soon. Otherwise i will try and stay in to the measured move. I'm trading one lot today, but multiple contracts are really the only ay to trade as you can leave one on for a runner, in case you exit too early and the trade carry's on.

4.) I think i now have enough confidence to trade single lots next week on the K200 and CL. This is only to get used to making decision with real money on the line.

5.) I've also set up my hot keys to hit the bid and offer, not just grab at market. This makes a difference, I'm not sure why i didn't see that before...doh!

Appreciate any constructive feedback. I hope those that are interested in this stuff are learning something from my experience. There seems to be so few good, willing teachers, although the ones we have on this site have been very generous.

If i do manage to learn this and be profitable. I would love to give free lessons. I think that would be the best way to give back.

This is quite exciting to learn, but very frustrating at times. I now know why there are times when the patterns on the chart failed so often. I cannot imagine trying to trade off the charts alone now. It would be like driving by looking out over a very long bonnet!

Thanks TH, and Joules...for all your tips so far. If there is anyone following that doesn't understand some of the terms then let me know. Also, if anyone would like to have a look. I can share my screen on Skype and show you what I'm seeing, one at a time though i think. I could do this tomorrow, once the wife gets a bit better.

Cheers,


CanOz

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

3.) One of the most valuable things I've learned this week is how long to stay in a trade. I try and use a measured type of move to estimate where i can expect to exit. This doesn't always work though, so I'll keep an eye on the depth. if they're pulling, trying to get thier orders out of the way, or the depth seems thin, then I'll stay in. If the depth thickens up then I'll start to think about an exit soon. Otherwise i will try and stay in to the measured move. I'm trading one lot today, but multiple contracts are really the only ay to trade as you can leave one on for a runner, in case you exit too early and the trade carry's on.

Just on this one. You need to make sure you are not going to limit your 5-10 R winners by bailing just because you come up against a little volume. To get the really big winners you almost always need to hold through a few pull backs. I mean how else do we get high volume? only way is that theres lots in the order book not only being hit but being refreshed. Its the move after the heavy hits thats counts.

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Just on this one. You need to make sure you are not going to limit your 5-10 R winners by bailing just because you come up against a little volume. To get the really big winners you almost always need to hold through a few pull backs. I mean how else do we get high volume? only way is that theres lots in the order book not only being hit but being refreshed. Its the move after the heavy hits thats counts.

View attachment 47667

Yeah that's a great point. Although i think its important for me to take profits at first, to build confidence. Also, i like getting back in on those pullbacks, its good practice for me. By keeping focused i should be able to develop the confidence to stay in or at least be able to trade multiples and take one off at the top and leave one in for that pullback, is that what you do?

You just need to understand that letting a winning trade turn into a loser is very damaging on the confidence. I need to figure out a way to keep building confidence while not exiting too early. I sense that you have stronger emotional fortitude than i, so you have heart to stick it through. For me, 90% of applying this is confidence.

Great points though TH, thank you!

CanOz

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Yeah that's a great point. Although i think its important for me to take profits at first, to build confidence. Also, i like getting back in on those pullbacks, its good practice for me. By keeping focused i should be able to develop the confidence to stay in or at least be able to trade multiples and take one off at the top and leave one in for that pullback, is that what you do?

Chatting to the prop dudes yesterday about how to move even more volume. Here is their advice,

"When you have a good idea and a trade comes back against you and all you want to do is just spew it up the only thing you should do is hit out and double up"

LOL pressure!! :microwave

 

[Joules MM1]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Chatting to the prop dudes yesterday about how to move even more volume. Here is their advice,

"When you have a good idea and a trade comes back against you and all you want to do is just spew it up the only thing you should do is hit out and double up"

LOL pressure!! :microwave

that one i used to have real challenges with.....then i moved onto waiting longer and accepting more points loss on lower position size until i'd replayed all those moves that i didnt read in real time.......eventually i have moved to adding to the pullback and even tho i sometimes get hit the longer i've waited the better the results.....i'll especially add on smacks that are just wrong......i can see news smacks, those diff for sure, but smart-rse smacks, you get to read those plays......

i think replaying the moves afterwards is vital.....it sounds babble, but, replay once youve worked each bar in context and relative place .......must admit, hard to keep out of the patterning trap

great thread

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Chatting to the prop dudes yesterday about how to move even more volume. Here is their advice,

"When you have a good idea and a trade comes back against you and all you want to do is just spew it up the only thing you should do is hit out and double up"

LOL pressure!! :microwave

Yeah, i can understand why they want guys like you that have a ton of experience + confidence and are at a level where you could respond positively from that advice.

Good luck with that!

CanOz

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

i think replaying the moves afterwards is vital.....it sounds babble, but, replay once youve worked each bar in context and relative place .......

Agree, and i will get that recorder installed today or tomorrow!

CanOz

 

[CanOz]

Re: Scalping the HSI (SIM)

Far out, i just got into this huge sh*t fight at the HOD on the K200:shoot::badass:, thinking it would pop...instead i just got chopped up:fan.

How do you stay out of these? It hit the high and then the bergs piled on :bricks1:and drove it back, this happened several times but the bulls wouldn't give up. I should have realized it wouldn't work as there was a ton of R above the high anyway. I got short as it broke low with gusto and made it all back with a 5 lot...Also, being close to the end of the day i should have realized there would be plenty of profit takers and those that would fade it...any other ways to avoid this? Wait for a pullback after the high has been broken or just don't try and buy that mess before the the high?

Cheers,


CanOz

 

[dazers]

Can I ask about what kind of setup you have that allows you to simulate scalping trades with market depth? How much does it cost?

Also what attracted you to trade the HSI, is it not notoriously difficult and unpredictable?