Same sex marriage - Yes or No?

[Value Collector]

VC has a rage against God, and would like to see all these gone for his own religion.

No tink, I don't have a rage against any gods, because I don't believe any exist.

I do get angry when those who believe in gods try to enforce their silly rules on others.

I have no problem with you or others having an imaginary friends, and setting up a club to worship the imaginary friend, and making up rules about what your imaginary friend thinks, but keep those rules to your self, don't try and control the rest of us that are trying to go about our business.

 

[Value Collector]

We've already seen a world without religion. The ancients had unusual sexual relationships, nothing was off the table, and society was highly dysfunctional (lots of social problems).

Which accents are you talking about, as far as I know they all had religion.

Indeed, a wonderful world to live in... It was a cold world as well – the disabled were spat on.

You know people with disabilities were often thought to be curse by god, and were often treated badly due to the many different superstitious religions.

Even today in parts of the world religious people preach that disabled people are bad luck.

watch the introduction to this video and see how children and babies are being treated at the hands of christians in africa. where if you are born with a disability you can be accused of being a witch.

When religion came people started helping the poor. That goes along with believing in a deity.

Thats just cherry picking, you are leaving out all the killings and religious wars etc

 

[cynic]

Its unfortunate that you are too far gone by your upbringing to think objectively when it comes to certain topics. I don't mean that disrespectfully I honestly think you are blinded to see reason.

And what entitles you to cast judgment upon the rational capacity of others?

How exactly, did you arrive at the belief that your views are more reasonable, than those in opposition?

I too consider it unfortunate, that there exist those capable of discerning cause for criticism of others' views, whilst somehow failing to recognise how those same uttered criticisms can equally apply to the issuer of same.

 

[SirRumpole]

watch the introduction to this video and see how children and babies are being treated at the hands of christians in africa. where if you are born with a disability you can be accused of being a witch.

Do you think that view is representative of the wider Christian community ?

 

[basilio]

Hey I'm just stating how it is, I'm not judging. Like you insist that homosexuals are "born that way" and therefore they are "normal" and "just like us" (which is discrimination right there BTW), I'm just explaining that we heterosexuals think the way we do because we are born that way, it's normal, it's just like us (well for alpha males it is). The beige who walk amongst us choose to look away and detach themselves insipidly from the discomfort, other social vandals spruik equal for all oranges and apples (for all oranges are equal to apples apparently) and then there are those with clarity, purpose and God on their side .....

It's just plain common sense and if you want to wrap it up in some scientific mumbo jumbo it's heteronormativity.... an hierarchy of social needs based procreation of the (healthy) species... it's normal, we are born that way, .......

Yeah I can hear what your saying Tisme. Just stating it like it is from the position of "clarity, purpose and God on their side..." (Is your tongue in your cheek ? Maybe ?)

We have heard it before Tis. Many times, many places. The natural, normal, order of things. The subhuman status of blacks which made it perfectly ok to buy, sell, torture, breed, separate them. And then later on lynch them horribly if they became uppitty.

The God given right of the strong to take the property of the weaker. Whether its a country, a house, a servant, a wife. Thats just the natural order of things.

The One True Church that needed to ensure no Heresy was allowed and that they represented Truth and Light and that unbelievers needed to be purged to protect the Body of the Church. (Applicable to Christians, Jews , Muslims, Westbro Baptist, x number of cults.)

The need to keep the blood lines pure, the nation strong, the men proud, the women devoted, the others .... lets not ask too many questions here.

 

[basilio]

Anyone interested in discussing the topic of Legalising Same Sex marriages ? How about some pertinent arguments from a top Catholic theologian ?

Legalise same-sex marriage for the 'common good', says Catholic priest Frank Brennan

• 
  Michael Koziol

269 reading now

1) Same-sex marriage should be legalised for the "common good", one of Australia's leading Catholic thinkers has urged, arguing civil marriage cannot be seen as an instrument of the church.

2) In a marked departure from other Catholic leaders and many Coalition conservatives, Jesuit priest Frank Brennan said any concerns about religious freedom should be set aside until after a successful "yes" vote in the postal survey.

3) And he turned opponents' fears on their head, saying the increasing prevalence of same-sex couples with children was an argument in favour of marriage equality, not an argument against.

"We've got to factor that in to the common good argument about what's necessary," Father Brennan told Sky News on Friday, following his delivery of the Lionel Bowen Lecture this week in which he declared he would vote "yes".

T

"We are now in a society very different from what it was a decade ago": Father Frank Brennan. Photo: Lee Besford
4) The legalisation of same-sex marriage in like-minded countries such as Britain and New Zealand was also a reason to support change, he said, to provide consistency for couples who moved around the world.

He imagined the example of a married Canadian same-sex couple, where same-sex marriage is legal, who are in Australia. If one person were dying in hospital, their partner's spousal rights may not be recognised.

"That's a common good argument you've got to look at," said Father Brennan, who runs Catholic Social Services Australia and is a professor of law at the Australian Catholic University.

5) "They're the sort of arguments which have me saying 'yes'. We are now in a society very different from what it was a decade ago."

6) Father Brennan said he continued to espouse the Catholic Church's teaching on marriage - that it is between a man and a woman - but this had to be separated from civil marriage, which was the question before the Australian people.

"It's a very different institution from what is marriage in the Catholic Church," he told Sky News. He said concerns about religious freedom were valid, but should be dealt with by Parliament in the advent of a "yes" vote, and not "during the hubbub of a publicity campaign".

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/fed...lic-priest-frank-brennan-20170901-gy8njv.html

And perhaps some comments from readers of the paper.

- Thank you Father Brennan at least there is some compassion and sense within the catholic church over this divisive debate. I am very concerned about the hateful debate and hope that people can be respectful. Father Brennan rightly has argued this is about human rights, not religious at all.

- It's fascinating that the church is now differentiating between the legal concept of civil marriage and the Catholic concept of marriage as an institution.

Perhaps this is the middle ground where all parties can manage to reconcile and justify their various desires and beliefs.

-
-Governing is about 'the common good', and it strikes me as strange that we need to have a Catholic Priest telling our society what the 'common good' is - rather than our government....

For example:
"He used the example of a Canadian same-sex couple in Australia while one is dying in hospital, arguing their partner should be granted spousal rights.

"They're the sort of arguments which have me saying 'yes'. We are now in a society very different from what it was a decade ago."

 

[Value Collector]

Do you think that view is representative of the wider Christian community ?

Not anymore, But it is happening, but I don't think isis is representative of islam either.

Remember the claim was that religion came and made the world great and stopped disabled people being abused, when in reality for a very long time it contributed to the abuse.

Remember the "smiley faced christians" you see to day is a relatively modern thing, most of their history is horrible, and in certain areas and on certain topics its still horrible.

 

[basilio]

The Lional Bowen lecture by Father Frank Brennan was interesting for a range of reasons. He did analyse the issue of same sex marriages from a Common Good perspective. But he also touched on a wide range of contempoart political issues through the same lens. IMO it's worth a read.


Tonight, you have asked that I pay tribute to Lionel Bowen addressing the topic, 'Citizenship and the Common Good'. What is the common good? We Australians now are used to hearing a lot about rights, and occasionally some public talk about responsibilities and duties. We are committed to the fair go and mateship. We pride ourselves on providing a safety net for fellow citizens who fall through the gaps not being able to find paid employment or not being able to afford basic health care, housing or education. We have become an increasingly individualist society emphasising the rights of the autonomous individual being free to do their own thing provided they do not interfere with the rights of others wanting to do their own thing. But is there more to a good life than this individual freedom?


The American theologian Fr David Hollenbach SJ recently spoke on 'The Glory of God and the Global Common Good: Solidarity in a Turbulent World'. Hollenbach says that 'the common good is a normative concept with a rich history'. Sometimes it just means 'the greatest good for the greatest number'. But then it can also mean 'the sum of those conditions of social life which allow social groups and their individual members relatively thorough and ready access to their own fulfilment'. Hollenbach thinks it is also useful to look at what economists call 'public goods'. He says, 'A public good is a good present for all members of a community when it is present for any of them. If it is absent for some, it is absent for all. For example, when a city creates the public good of an effective system of traffic lights, it benefits all drivers. More technically, public goods are "nonrivalrous in consumption."' We might think of climate change and the common good to be achieved by ensuring that our planet is sustainable for future generations. This needs to be done with market forces ensuring that everyone pulls their weight and that there are no free riders enjoying the benefits without paying the costs. Energy producers need a renewable energy target so that the market might set prices with certainty and equity and so that the producers can plan, invest and research for the future.


When Lionel Bowen died, there were great tributes paid to him in the Federal Parliament. Senator John Faulkner the straight-talking torch bearer of Labor values in turbulent times told the Senate: 'Lionel Bowen saw public service not as a vehicle for personal advancement but as a vocation with the purpose of improving the lives of others and serving in the nation's interest. His time on the national stage never diminished his deep commitment to his local community. As my colleague Senator Bob Carr said — and Bob, of course, knew him so well: "He knew suburban politics like the back of his hand."'

https://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=52976#.Wai0LbKg8uU

 

[Macquack]

Or ashamed of themselves for entertaining and developing an itch they shouldn't scratch. Or they were being groomed into the lifestyle necessarily kept out of public view. The local buggery priest opened a door they feel they can't go back through for shame. etc

There is an innate reaction by the procreators of the human tribe to consider the queer and wierd as inferior and repugnant. You see it where ever men meet, without the restrictions of social graces and women present.

It's that inbuilt consideration of an inferior construct, that is the reason for the empathy drive to have homosexuals accepted into the group by dogooders. It's like giving native americans wampum; at the end of the day it has no real value and the attitude toward the takers still remains the same....... pity favours, not merit based.

You are a classic homophobe.

All your comments reek of smugness and superiority.

 

[Hodgie]

Cynic, the difference is i am willing to change my view based on information. I don't have a predisposition on a topic based on some scripture. Im perfectly willing to accept I could be wrong based on new information. When you base your opinions and your view of morality on old scripture there is no change and you cannot adapt and progress.

Btw im sorry I shouldn't have made it personal that is my error I apologise.

 

[Tisme]

You are a classic homophobe.

All your comments reek of smugness and superiority.

as does your comment.

 

[cynic]

Cynic, the difference is i am willing to change my view based on information. I don't have a predisposition on a topic based on some scripture. Im perfectly willing to accept I could be wrong based on new information. When you base your opinions and your view of morality on old scripture there is no change and you cannot adapt and progress.

Btw im sorry I shouldn't have made it personal that is my error I apologise.

Thankyou for your attempts at employing diplomacy in your reply.

I could make an effort to respond in kind, but as you are likely already aware, I do at times have a tendency to be unapologetically bold (and at times brutal) in the expression of my personal views.

Too many times, I have been witness to people (myself included), fantasising about being possessed of distinctions which somehow render chosen opinions superior to those of their opponents. When such people become overly engrossed in such fantasies of superiority, behaviour akin to that of a religious zealot typically ensues.

I am of the opinion that the "holier than thou" religion, is one of the oldest of all mankind's religions. And yet somehow, many of its adherents fail to recognise their religious zeal when decrying their religious opponents.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Anyone interested in discussing the topic of Legalising Same Sex marriages ? How about some pertinent arguments from a top Catholic theologian ?

It is most probable SSM supporters have friends, family and visitors with a different sexual orientation and feel obliged to push the marriage cause. Crikey, they may even have repressed desires for a pure bottom. The desire for such things has spilled over for certain religious faiths. The (supposed) sanctuaries from evil.

 

[wayneL]

This is the religion of Facebook cynic.... holier than thou, and thou art racist, homophobic xenophobic, islamophobic.

I am perfectly virtuous in every way (except for the betrayal of my own kind)

 

[overhang]

http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...beral-mps-reignite-push-for-marriage-equality

This poll is 65% to 35% in favour of the NO vote

I was a bit stumped why this poll with such a large sample size seemed to have the opposite results to all other polling. Then I found out that this was circulated by a few religious groups

"Dear my friends, please forward this in private message to many of your Christian and Muslim friends to vote NO to the same sex marriage. NOW IT IS THE TIME TO PRAY & ACT PRECIOUS PEOPLE OF GOD: I invite all of you to share the below link to all of your friends and invite as many to vote as possible. The online poll is carried out by Channel 9. A real chance for us to speak up. Please vote 'NO' and help to forward. http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...beral-mps-reignite-push-for-marriage-equality Yes is currently about 80%. Please vote. Thanks, John Gabriel."

Maybe it doesn't explain the result and the silent majority have spoken but going by this thread the silent majority seem to be yes voters.

 

[basilio]

This is supposed to be thread discussing the arguments for/against SSM. I'm surprised that one has yet responded to the arguments posed by Father Frank Brennan in terms of The Common Good and the distinction between a religious view of the Holy Sacrament of Marriage amd a civil view of a social contract.

I thought his comments of the idea that marriage for gay people with children in fact strengthens the social contact and committment of partners and should be encouraged.

 

[SirRumpole]

This is supposed to be thread discussing the arguments for/against SSM. I'm surprised that one has yet responded to the arguments posed by Father Frank Brennan in terms of The Common Good and the distinction between a religious view of the Holy Sacrament of Marriage amd a civil view of a social contract.

I thought his comments of the idea that marriage for gay people with children in fact strengthens the social contact and committment of partners and should be encouraged.

Marriage hasn't meant a great deal to the heterosexual community considering the divorce rate (40% I believe), why should it make any difference to gays who statistically have many more sexual partners than straights ?

 

[wayneL]

This is supposed to be thread discussing the arguments for/against SSM. I'm surprised that one has yet responded to the arguments posed by Father Frank Brennan in terms of The Common Good and the distinction between a religious view of the Holy Sacrament of Marriage amd a civil view of a social contract.

I thought his comments of the idea that marriage for gay people with children in fact strengthens the social contact and committment of partners and should be encouraged.

The reason is that the opinion of a single virtue signalling is irrelevant, basilio.

...and perhaps folks have noticed your attempt to run with the hares and hunt wirh the hounds?

 

[grah33]

Which accents are you talking about, as far as I know they all had religion.
You know people with disabilities were often thought to be curse by god, and were often treated badly due to the many different superstitious religions.
Thats just cherry picking, you are leaving out all the killings and religious wars etc

The romans etc, pre Christianity times. Crueler world to live in . Helping needy people wasn't a value as in today's society. With Christianity also came a big arm to help the poor/afflicted. Even now you have lots of charities. The gov for a good while has been happy to have religious (catholic) hospitals around. Whatever free health one can get is always going to be a good thing. Buy yeah, looks like a bunch in authority (catholic church) covered stuff up, inflicting lots of harm. Regards wars, you probably already know that you get evil people everywhere, but what does the christian religion teach? Stuff like “love your enemies, hate nobody (even your parents' killers)”. Seems harmless to me... Regards the brutality of the old testament, that was all nullified in the new testament so we're not cherry picking e.g. the stoners (and everybody really) were now given a new order to forgive etc. Although the other 2 religions are still guided by the principles of the old testament, but we're talking about leaving things in Australia the way they have been (male and female , non polygamous ie christian ) or used to be anyway .

Just to add , in debating it's important to agree with good answers . The pros do it. And audiences negate points from debaters when they don't see that . Likewise when they use inferences such as “person A has this view against and they're part of it, therefore it's wrong etc" . This is not good debating.

 

[Value Collector]

The romans etc, pre Christianity times. Crueler world to live in . Helping needy people wasn't a value as in today's society. With Christianity also came a big arm to help the poor/afflicted. Even now you have lots of charities. The gov for a good while has been happy to have religious (catholic) hospitals around. Whatever free health one can get is always going to be a good thing. Buy yeah, looks like a bunch in authority (catholic church) covered stuff up, inflicting lots of harm. Regards wars, you probably already know that you get evil people everywhere, but what does the christian religion teach? Stuff like “love your enemies, hate nobody (even your parents' killers)”. Seems harmless to me... Regards the brutality of the old testament, that was all nullified in the new testament so we're not cherry picking e.g. the stoners (and everybody really) were now given a new order to forgive etc. Although the other 2 religions are still guided by the principles of the old testament, but we're talking about leaving things in Australia the way they have been (male and female , non polygamous ie christian ) or used to be anyway .

Just to add , in debating it's important to agree with good answers . The pros do it. And audiences negate points from debaters when they don't see that . Likewise when they use inferences such as “person A has this view against and they're part of it, therefore it's wrong etc" . This is not good debating.

For over a 1000 years after the romans, Christians were still killing non believers, burning witches, treating Jews like crap, suppressing science etc.

They were called the dark ages for a reason.