Julia
In Memoriam
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A very reasonable question which surely, basilio, deserves a clear answer from you.basilio - why do you think Australia should put it's economy at risk to reduce 5% of 1.35% of world carbon dioxide emissions? Don't you think it's futile when the biggest polluting countries are not interested in this nonsense?
Totally sensible comment, bellenuit. Good to see some objectivity.Science makes no statement on what is the best way to encourage the move from high CO2 emitting activities to low CO2 emitting activities and what economic effect such a move would have. That is the realm of economics and politics The carbon tax is one such method. One can accept the scientific view in relation to climate change but fully reject the proposed solutions to effect the change. That isn't challenging science, but challenging an economic model that has to date never been tested in the socio-economic environment that is Australia. My opinion is that it won't work and will lead to a weakening in Australia's economic position which will put us in a worse position to tackle the problem.
Ah, some heart tugging, emotive stuff there.I keep wondering about a couple of questions.
If we do nothing what will a world population of 9 billion do for energy and who goes hungry?
If we do nothing what will drive us to discover other other energy sources.
If we do nothing what will the wars look like in the battle for energy?
If we do nothing what happens if the oceans acidify.
Is there anyone here who believes oil will not run out?
Is there anyone here who believes coal or nuclear power will plant crops?
How can what we do today i.e. world growth in resource use continue with a population of 9 bil.
If we do some thing who will die?
That statement is a total cop-out, IF. What, then, do you suggest Australia should do (taking into account the non-action of other major industrialised nations) as an alternative to your 'doing nothing'?To be honest the carbon tax is neither here nor there but to do nothing is a much more serious decision.
Population control is the only option until there is a solution to the fossil fuel energy reliance, and need to eat and drink.I keep wondering about a couple of questions.
If we do nothing what will a world population of 9 billion do for energy and who goes hungry?
If we do nothing what will drive us to discover other other energy sources.
If we do nothing what will the wars look like in the battle for energy?
If we do nothing what happens if the oceans acidify.
Is there anyone here who believes oil will not run out?
Is there anyone here who believes coal or nuclear power will plant crops?
How can what we do today i.e. world growth in resource use continue with a population of 9 bil.
If we do some thing who will die?
Population control is the only option until there is a solution to the fossil fuel energy reliance, and need to eat and drink.
It's been mentioned before but still bears repeating. The mantra of continual economic growth as the only way to keep our society going is one of the basic reasons we are in this mess. And to get out of this mess (after we actually recognise it is there ! ) we have to find a way of restructuring our society to use less resources but still keep everyone alive and reasonably happy.
Population control is the only option until there is a solution to the fossil fuel energy reliance, and need to eat and drink.
Indeed. That really is the crux of the problem. Too many people.Population control is the only option until there is a solution to the fossil fuel energy reliance, and need to eat and drink.
Great summation bellenuit. The science, the economics and the politics. The boundaries get blurred and misinterpreted.Actually science doesn't say that at all. Science, at least the consensus view, tells us that the earth is warming and that the warming trend is due to an increase in carbon dioxide due to human activity. To the extent that I have followed the debate I accept that that is the case. Science also tells us that the way to slow down or stop the warming trend is to reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, which can only be achieved by reducing CO2 emissions to a point where CO2 absorption exceeds CO2 emissions. Science can also tell us what human activities produce the most CO2 and what produce the least.
Science makes no statement on what is the best way to encourage the move from high CO2 emitting activities to low CO2 emitting activities and what economic effect such a move would have. That is the realm of economics and politics The carbon tax is one such method. One can accept the scientific view in relation to climate change but fully reject the proposed solutions to effect the change. That isn't challenging science, but challenging an economic model that has to date never been tested in the socio-economic environment that is Australia. My opinion is that it won't work and will lead to a weakening in Australia's economic position which will put us in a worse position to tackle the problem.
Is it me or are the alarmists in this thread trying to write a book with "fact" packed posts? Er, anyone awake, still no credibility, you can't answer a simple question...
And the question: And the observed evidence that the tiny % of human CO2 raises temperatures can be found where? (Sorry IPCC models aren't observed evidence)
One line will do, no books required. Please CC Ross Garnut and Tim Flannery they're still looking.
A survey completed last year by Dr. Murray Mitchell of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration reveals a drop of half a degree in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968. According to George Kukla of Columbia University, satellite photos indicated a sudden, large increase in Northern Hemisphere snow cover in the winter of 1971-72. And a study released last month by two NOAA scientists notes that the amount of sunshine reaching the ground in the continental U.S. diminished by 1.3% between 1964 and 1972.
In this paper, Broecker correctly predicted “that the present cooling trend will, within a decade or so, give way to a pronounced warming induced by carbon dioxide”, and that “by early in the next century [carbon dioxide] will have driven the mean planetary temperature beyond the limits experienced during the last 1000 years”. He predicted an overall 20th Century global warming of 0.8 ºC due to CO2 and worried about the consequences for agriculture and sea level.
Of the 186 billion tons of carbon from CO2 that enter earth's atmosphere each year from all sources, only 6 billion tons are from human activity. Approximately 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and another 90 billion tons from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants.
The idea that man-made pollution is responsible for global warming is not supported by historical fact. The period known as the Holocene Maximum is a good example-- so-named because it was the hottest period in human history. The interesting thing is this period occurred approximately 7500 to 4000 years B.P. (before present)-- long before humans invented industrial pollution.
Yes, it looks like they're trying to write a book!
We all know there is climate change - there always has been. The argument is about man's contribution to the coming alleged end of the world. This climate change hysteria is all based on an unproven THEORY, which won't be proven or disproven in our lifetimes, but in the meantime some people in power are planning on getting as much mileage as possible out of it and making as much money as possible.
There are many things we could and should be doing to make the environment better, such as cleaning up the oceans which are treated as a huge rubbish tip, but why do we see no interest shown by anyone in doing anything in these areas? Is it because there is no money to be made out of something like this???
And the question: And the observed evidence that the tiny % of human CO2 raises temperatures can be found where? (Sorry IPCC models aren't observed evidence)
One line will do, no books required. Please CC Ross Garnut and Tim Flannery they're still looking.
Garnaut's cry from the heart for honesty
June 1, 2011
Comments 91
Lies and political slogans have demeaned our climate change politics.
ROSS Garnaut's final report on climate change has three great strengths. It skewers myth after myth spread by those who oppose putting a price on Australia's carbon emissions. It restates his state-of-the-art 2008 blueprint on how the world should share the burden of cutting global emissions in half by 2050.
But perhaps most important of all, he proposes a way to take politics out of Australia's future decisions on climate change by setting up three independent agencies to advise the government on future targets, on future industry assistance measures and to administer the scheme.
After 18 months of sloganeering and lies that have demeaned Australian politics, this offers us a structure for honest, objective decision-making on what is arguably the most important issue of our time.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/po...for-honesty-20110531-1feky.html#ixzz1NzNimi7A
Good story in The Age reviewing the updated Garnaut report on how to tackle climate change. The article itself highlights some of the issues raised here (what is the rest of the world doing ) and why the carbon tax makes sense as a way to drive investment towards low carbon technology and away from high carbon businesses.
Basilio, Derty?
Let me give you a hand.....could this be an answer? 1979 : Before The Hockey Team Destroyed Climate Science, perhaps, as many have been pointing out, a cooling trend is upon us? Ah, no it couldn't be since CO2 isn't the driving force.....this research must be completely wrong, right?
pls post your observed evidence, should be easy to find since there is a "con-sensus"
Science isn't a house of cards, ready to topple if you remove one line of evidence. Instead, it's like a jigsaw puzzle. As the body of evidence builds, we get a clearer picture of what's driving our climate. We now have many lines of evidence all pointing to a single, consistent answer - the main driver of global warming is rising carbon dioxide levels from our fossil fuel burning.
OWG, can you please answer me this? How do you explain the increase in atmospheric CO2 of almost 40% over pre-industrial levels?Is it me or are the alarmists in this thread trying to write a book with "fact" packed posts? Er, anyone awake, still no credibility, you can't answer a simple question...
And the question: And the observed evidence that the tiny % of human CO2 raises temperatures can be found where? (Sorry IPCC models aren't observed evidence)
One line will do, no books required. Please CC Ross Garnut and Tim Flannery they're still looking.
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