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Resisting Climate Hysteria


Just don't think your on the mark here Smurf. The analysis of the glaciers we are talking about indicates a break with the underlying land and a rapidly increasing movement to the sea. And there is nothing that can physically stop the flow. It's all down hill. Further increases in temperature will just accelerate the movement

In engineering terms consider a new super dam that has been built. Suddenly the engineers realise the builders used weak cement and didn't properly install the foundations.

As it fills the dam starts to leak from the bottom and perhaps the middle. You know that it will go and that as the dam fills and the pressure rises the probabaility of an earlier collapse increases dramatically.

http://www.latimes.com/science/environment/la-sci-0513-antarctic-ice-sheet-20140513-story.html
 

Not in any way, shape or form has any part this post refuted any part of Smurf's!

Onya Smurf



 
And all we need is another Mount Pinatubo to reduce the amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth's surface, lowering temperatures in the troposphere, and changing atmospheric circulation patterns. Ipso facto ... global cooling

 
Fantastic graphic time line graph TS , guess it put things into perspective. Considering Hobart Tassie has just broken another 100 warm record yesterday. This was also on top of the hottest day on April records , the last couple of years Hobart has broken nearly all record heat maximums.
Lets hope as the graphic shows , what goes up must come down. Just hope I'm still around to see it , Im running out of summer clothes .

Cheers IJN

Ps Smurf , how about this weather , are we saving on heating or what ?
 

Predicting structural failure when it is imminent isn't that difficult since you know that it's about to happen. You have actual proof that the structure isn't sound since the effects of this are clearly visible.

But predicting something 200 to 1000 years into the future is way beyond the abilities of civil engineering. Sure, you can make a prediction based on what is known today but there is a huge risk that this will end up being inaccurate over that length of time. You only need a slight change in the rate of degradation, compounded over a very long time, to end up being wrong in your forecasts if they go that far into the future.

External factors are also a major influence. Eg the Tasman Bridge was opened in 1964. I'm not sure of the actual design life, but it would likely be a century or so for a bridge like that. Then a ship rammed into it in 1975 causing a partial collapse. Needless to say, whilst it was always possible for such an event to occur nobody could have accurately predicted the timing unless by chance.

Or take the coal mine at Yallourn (Vic). Circa 1920 they took samples and used these as the basis for designing the boilers at the first Yallourn power station (Yallourn A). The power station was built and the mine developed. Just one problem - the samples they took turned out to be different to the coal from the mine that was actually developed to the point that the coal wouldn't burn in the boilers. End result = various attempts to modify the boilers and the SECV had to operate a second mine close by, which had coal of the type in the samples, in order to make use of the power station they'd just built. A simple mistake but a real one that was actually made.

Now, can anyone tell me that we know exactly all relevant information relating to this ice? No, you can't say that because there are uncertainties. And with uncertainties comes the possibility of error. And there will be external influences too - whilst it might be given that the ice has become detached and will eventually melt, the rate of melting would almost certainly change if the temperature changed. And there is a definite possibility that the water temperature won't be constant for the next 200 - 1000 years. Even without the man-made climate issue, natural variation alone is almost certain to result in a change over that time either up or down.

I am not an engineer but I know a few and none of them would be willing to make any definitive statements that far into the future about something as uncertain as naturally occurring ice without stating that they are estimates only, are based on current knowledge which is likely to be imperfect and are subject to ongoing revision as more data becomes available.
 
Ps Smurf , how about this weather , are we saving on heating or what ?

Walking around in T-shirt in May in Hobart just doesn't sound right. It's unusually warm weather that's for sure.

As for the heating, well power demand is only just above normal Summer levels so it's safe to say that not a lot of heating is being used. Some yes, but nowhere near as much as would normally be the case this time of year.
 

I wouldn't be quite so enthusiastic about accepting the evidence of the graph that TS posted.

Few points

1) The meteorologists who posted the graph are quite upfront about recognising that human activity with producing CO2 as well as deforestation ect will significantly increase temperatures. They do also point to volcanoes and solar activity as contributors to temperature changes.


2) I chased the origins of the graph to see exactly what was being measured. Turns out it's totally misrepresents the last 150 years . How? It seems to be based on the work of Don Easterbrook who relies on temperatures at the top of the Greenland ice sheet as a proxy for global temperatures. That in itself should send a message of concern. Using only one indicator for global temperatures is not a good look.

But there another quite fatal flaw. The final reading on the graph is in fact 1855 not 2000. I'll quote what he did.

Check it out..

http://www.skepticalscience.com/10000-years-warmer.htm
http://www.longrangeweather.com/global_temperatures.htm
 
Still wondering if/when the penny will drop with regard to the collapse of the east Antarctic Ice shelf and the implications of that.

Somehow people are trying to take comfort from the possibility it might be wrong, "that it is a long way off" or "that anything can happen in the future". Frankly you are better off saying a few Hail Marys because at this stage it will require an absolute miracle to stop that has now been put into motion.

The glaciologist who headed the research team has outlined the depth and breadth of research that was used to come to the view of his team. It is not a flimsy story.

I wonder what the response would be if other scientists announced they were 95% sure that an asteroid would hit the earth sometime in the next 200 years unless we did something "magical " ?


http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...tarctica-glaciers-melting-global-warming-nasa
 
... unless we did something "magical " ...

Asked a vineyard owner the other day, "How high are you above sea level?"
"105 feet", was his very, very casual reply!!

If I live to see the ice melt, I will be moving to high ground.









How's that for something "magical"!
 

My money is on an asteroid the size of a football field to hit Earth prior to the ice shelf collapsing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ast-Earth-tomorrow-YOU-watch-live-online.html
 
My money is on an asteroid the size of a football field to hit Earth prior to the ice shelf collapsing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ast-Earth-tomorrow-YOU-watch-live-online.html

Well THAT is a gloomy view!! Perhaps it will come around the next time Tony Abbott is believed again..

But anyway just to add more light to the leaps and bounds science has made with regard to understanding what is happening in the Antarctic check out the following read.


Doubling of Antarctic ice loss revealed by European satellite


http://www.theguardian.com/environm...rctic-ice-loss-revealed-by-european-satellite
 
Maybe because it was a record HIGH prior to the melt?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...t-record-levels/story-e6frg8y6-1226913708208#

But but but it is melting ... no wait ... this happens EVERY year


http://www.theguardian.com/environm...1/climate-change-antarctic-sea-ice-expedition

"Collapse" is such a strong word:-


http://www.nbcnews.com/science/envi...k-antarctic-meltdown-rising-sea-level-n104616

Computer modelling is wrong:-


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/11/r...lobal-warming-models-are-wrong/#ixzz32J1lLqkj

Ho hum ... back to the coal face (pun intended)

 
The only collapse currently in progress is the reputation and credibility of UQ, Nuccitelli and Cooke, regarding the data fiasco of their consensus project.

The plot continues to thicken.
 
TS how about trying to discuss the same question rather than going in a totally different, irrelevant direction ?

The Antarctic research that has caused this major concern is about the rapid melt and retreat of glaciers and Antarctic land ice. Global satellites can now very accurately determine the thickness of ice and the movement over time.

Sea ice changes have absolutely nothing to do with this situation. Zip . Zero. Anyone quoting such material is just trying to distract with irrelevant dribble.

However having said the above when one actually reads the story from The Guardian you realise their point is that the sea ice story in fact is part of changes in the climate around Antarctica. Did you actually read the full story to find that out ?

And as far as climate modelling being wrong regarding temperature rises.? Just BS and completely irrelevant to glaciologist measurement of rapid changes in the size of Antarctic land ice

But hey why start looking at reality now ? It's too late to change what has/is happening and you wouldn't believe it anyway would you ?
 

OOOOOeeeeeerrrrr maybe if you read my posts you would realise that I am talking about the same thing

Your second post is to do with 160 billion tonnes of ice melting into the ocean. Happens every year as it is cyclical. I was pointing out the large thaw is due to the sea ice being at it's largest level in years. A record they claimed.

Your first post and subsequent post dribbles on about a "collapse" ... sells newspapers and nothing more and from the same newspaper you quoted I quoted the same thing that Smurf1976 pointed out ... a lot can happen in 200 - 1000 years. You are stating this as a fact rather then a computer model which is "predicting" this to happen.

But hey ... let's not be alarmist about this now shall we :frown:
 

TS get it right.

Sea ice freezes and melts every year in a cyclical fashion.

160 billions tons of ice melting from the glaciers and ice caps on Antarctica are NOT sea ice.

By the way that research report was carried by hundreds of papers around the world. I chose to use the report posted in News Ltd just to "show" it wasn't a beat up from the usual suspects.

But whats the point ? If you can't/won't recognises the simple differences between cyclical sea ice and the rapid melt of long term glaciers theres little sense in discussion.
 

So the sheet ice is "collapsing" (read catastrophic event) or is it slowly melting (nature at it's best) and comparing it with such select time lines is a moot point:-

The data collected from 2010-2013 was compared to that from 2005-2010.

Whose to say from 2015 - 2019 it might start freezing over again ? 160 billion tonnes of water is raising the sea level 0.45mm per annum so ten years will make the sea rise 4.5mm ??? Hardly a devastating affect. Like I said previously, only need a Mt. Pinatubo effect on the global climate and hey presto ... global cooling.

You, yourself is the first person to say "You can't cherry pick the data/timeline as it is too small a quotient to sample to come up with a plausible thesis." I also referred to "computer models" as the NASA scientist analysed 90 papers and found them to be 95% INACCURATE and overstated the actual position of global warming.

However, the computer models suggest that one of the ice sheet's key glaciers, Thwaites Glacier, won't disappear for another 200 to 1,000 years.

So please desist in trying to paint me as a neophyte who has no grasp of the written word. Perhaps you should try comprehending what I am writing and you might, just might get a grip on what is really going on.

Stop being such an ALARMIST !!!!!!!!!!
 
Please yourself TS as to how accurately you read information. The fact that you repeatedly confabulated the melting of glaciers and land ice with the ongoing melt and freezing of sea ice doesn't give me confidence in your judgement.

I also wonder just how much you accurately read all of the reports as distinct from picking the bits you feel are most useful for your argument. For example you quoted figures from 2005 to 2013 as somehow the most relevant examples. This came from information gleaned from the Cryo Sate 2 satellite which has only been up for a few years. What this report offered was a remarkably accurate analysis of the amount and rate of ice melt in the past 8 years.


The main papers however indicated that the retreating glaciers had been monitored for 40 years



Then you go on to suggest that somehow a Mt Pinaturbo eruption (or similar ) could reverse climbing temperatures.

Really ? Really ? Ok lets accept that a major volcano eruption will lower (or stabilize) world temperatures for 1 -3 years because of the particulates in the atmosphere. In no way will that have any longer term effects on global warming. When the dust settles temperatures will resume their upward path. And there is no chance that somehow the extra 3-4 degrees of warmth in the southern oceans will disappear because of one eruption. (Unless it takes everything out...)

And finally you suggest that it is alarmist to be concerned about a long term threat to every coastal installation less that 3 meters above sea level. How about posing that question to a Insurance actuary and see what they say ?

http://www.theguardian.com/business...account-climate-change-extreme-weather-losses

______________________________________________________________________________
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...et-collapse-has-already-begun-scientists-warn
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...rctic-ice-loss-revealed-by-european-satellite
 
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