........... If you continue to accept the lie after it has been shown to false - then perhaps some people just don't care what the truth might be as long as they don't have to face some unpleasant consequences.
It would be a bit like going a huge spending spree on credit card and when the bill comes in declaring that it's just not true and I'm just not going to pay it.
Lets move onto some other examples of deliberate and outrageous deceptions that masquerade as "fact". .................
Basilio my friend, you could equally apply these words to yourself and your beliefs on climate change.
I didn't specify which of your statements I'd like to see citations for, but there are several. Here are some from this thread:
From post 1931:
From post 1965:
From post 1988:
From post 2000:
From post 2025:
Also from post 2025. In this case I'm asking for the source of the argument that that you rightly reject.
From post 2203:
From the same post, I'm asking what significance you attach to this point, which you've made several times:
Post 2283:
Thanks,
Ghoti
basilio: One could accept that the science is not totally settled. I'm certain every scientist in the field would acknowledge that. If one sees this as a giant jigsaw puzzle a certain number of pieces have not been put in place. But the big picture seems very clear and ignoring it in favour of alternative points of points appears wantonly wrong given that the consequences of putting more CO2 in the atmosphere look catastrophic.
Why do we want to take such a risk unless we were totally certain all these scientists were wrong ?
A great post.
A great post.
And as I have repeated, we do not really know but can we afford to sit idly by, cost or no cost?
To cut to the truth of each argument, I made peer-reviewed science the ultimate authority. There's no higher standard than evidence-based research conducted by experts, which is then rigorously scrutinised by other experts. As I began to piece together the various pieces, a clear picture began to emerge.
China might attack, we do not really know but can we afford to sit idly by, cost or no cost?
Logical fallacy.
The gospel according to preacher Basilio.
"Beliefs about change ? ". In particular of course that the large majority of current and foreseeable climate change is caused by human produced CO2.
I just think that the scientific understandings of how CO2 warms the atmosphere are rock solid. They have provable evidence to back up the effect of CO2 on trapping heat.
I accept the empirical evidence of temperature measurements around he world that our world is warming at a very rapid rate in geological terms.
In particular as John Cook noted from research papers .......
I can also understand the bigger and longer picture of how our climate has change and the various factors that have influenced it. In that sense I can see the capacity for various other factors at play.
But in the end I accept the basic understandings I have and finally the collective knowledge and cross checked research of the vast majority of the scientific community.
One could accept that the science is not totally settled........
..........But the big picture seems very clear and ignoring it in favour of alternative points of points appears wantonly wrong given that the consequences of putting more CO2 in the atmosphere look catastrophic.
.....I've already said that one could closely question current theories and measurements.
On the big picture however I find it extremely hard to see how querying small elements of what is happening climatically will make a substantial difference to the overall story.
..... it just demonstrates the proponent has no interest in observed facts and is willing to accept or make up anything that will support his/her case.
At that stage that person in my eyes has little credibility and particularly when they use their Professorial status to say they understand how science works. That's Professor Carter
There are scores of similar outright lies, cherry picked figures, illogical arguments and misinformation promoted by organization trying to stop decisive action on reducing greenhouse emissions. Again John Cook has taken each of these statements and pointed out what the observed facts are or the logical fallacies or the use of cherry picked data.
The problem for those who want to legitimately hold a skeptical view and query uncertain aspect of the science of AGW is that these areas are quite small and often obscure. (Much of science is obscure) So the rest of the deniers (not genuine skeptics) simply throw in any sort of drivel with the view that if its said loud enough and often enough then we will accept it.
Thank you Ruby. That was an excellent link to the Guardian article on why John Cook set up his Climate Skeptics site.
It certainly explains far better than I can the ways in which climate change deniers ignore observable facts, cherry pick information, create false arguments and so on.
Certainly well worth reading and I'm sure the links explain his statements.
So what does he use as a base for his arguments ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2011/apr/28/climate-change-denial-skeptical-science
On current evidence the probability that almost all climate scientists are right and that we will have catastrophic effects as a result of ensuring cliamte change is 90% plus.
BS response Wayne. On current evidence the probability that almost all climate scientists are right and that we will have catastrophic effects as a result of ensuring cliamte change is 90% plus.
A more equivalent situation would be the weather bureau predicting a force 5 cyclone coming within a few days and telling everyone to get out or get flattened. There is always a chance the cyclone will veer away or loss strength. But the smart money takes notice of what the science is saying and takes action instead of ignoring it.
Bas, can you please explain what you mean by "almost all climate scientists are right"? That is a very sweeping generalisation. How do you know what "almost all" climate scientists think?
Expert credibility in climate change
William R. L. Anderegg a , 1 ,
James W. Prall b ,
Jacob Harold c , and
Stephen H. Schneider a , d , 1
+ Author Affiliations
aDepartment of Biology, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305;
bElectrical and Computer Engineering, University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada M5S 3G4;
c William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, Palo Alto, CA 94025; and
dWoods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305
Contributed by Stephen H. Schneider, April 9, 2010 (sent for review December 22, 2009)
Abstract
Although preliminary estimates from published literature and expert surveys suggest striking agreement among climate scientists on the tenets of anthropogenic climate change (ACC), the American public expresses substantial doubt about both the anthropogenic cause and the level of scientific agreement underpinning ACC. A broad analysis of the climate scientist community itself, the distribution of credibility of dissenting researchers relative to agreeing researchers, and the level of agreement among top climate experts has not been conducted and would inform future ACC discussions. Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and (ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers.
I just think that the scientific understandings of how CO2 warms the atmosphere are rock solid. They have provable evidence to back up the effect of CO2 on trapping heat.
But you said the picture was clear.
Bas, there is one thing you keep ignoring. You say 'we must take action to prevent this climate change' but there is nothing we can do in Australia that can stop it. If we shut down tomrrow the difference would be miniscule. Our climate has always changed and always will.
Bas, a generalisation is not sufficient to assert that "almost all climate scientists agree..." when quite clearly they don't, and when dissent has been rigorously suppressed. See link for one such instance.It is a generalization that is supported by research amongst climate scientists and their understandings of how human produced CO2 is affecting our cliamte. The paper that establishes this fact is listed below. I attached the Abstract
With regard to Peter Cook's intention in setting up his website. He is trying to carefully explain the myriad stories that are thrown around to discredit the overwhelming evidence of AGW. To do that he uses what he sees as the strongest available evidence - peer reviewed scientific research. So if someone says "volcanoes throw out more CO2 than us " they need to produce the evidence that this is so.
The way to show this is a lie is to point to scientists in that field who have actually done the measurements and can show this is untrue.
There are scores of other assertions. Each of these is similarly dealt with. At this stage the response offered by those who want to disagree with the findings is to dismiss almost all peer reviewed research that supports AGW and somehow put up ideas that are either proven to be wrong, irrelevant or half truths.
There is nothing new about this process. The Tobacco industry was faced with a similar problem in the 1950's when doctors made the link between smoking and lung cancer (as well as other throat, mouth etc cancers) So the industry started a systemic public misinformation campaign and even established it's own Research institute to continue studies on the effects of smoking. It took about 50 years for our societies to accept what scientists had established and to expose the deceptions of the Tobacco industry. (References available)
This is no different. It's just that the stakes are far higher.
Biology: Electrical & Computer Engineering: some foundation about which we know nothing: a university department of environment.+ Author Affiliations
aDepartment of Biology, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305;
bElectrical and Computer Engineering, University of Toronto, Toronto, ON, Canada M5S 3G4;
c William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, Palo Alto, CA 94025; and
dWoods Institute for the Environment, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305
Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field ...........
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