Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[grah33]

Why would you assume so much of physics has changed just? I mean the hoops that the young earth people jump through to twist things to make them fit their story is embarassing.

The scientific theories explain some much, the religious stories explain nothing, and directly contradict the evidence we see.

I meant what the guy was saying made sense to me. Why assume carbon 14 etc was decomposing at the same rate in the very beginning. We just weren't there.

The Christian religion isn't meant to explain science, but a lot of people think that without it (including Milo) there wouldn't be much science at all. I think when you have proper values/morals in a society being practiced, it just becomes natural for technology to develop (a view of many people). I'm sure the other countries would be achieving just as much if they had the same values which we used to have (all people have same brains). The Bible is pretty much about how those morals were spread everywhere, about the hope of human immortality, and some other things too.

 

[luutzu]

I meant what the guy was saying made sense to me. Why assume carbon 14 etc was decomposing at the same rate in the very beginning. We just weren't there.

The Christian religion isn't meant to explain science, but a lot of people think that without it (including Milo) there wouldn't be much science at all. I think when you have proper values/morals in a society being practiced, it just becomes natural for technology to develop (a view of many people). I'm sure the other countries would be achieving just as much if they had the same values which we used to have (all people have same brains). The Bible is pretty much about how those morals were spread everywhere, about the hope of human immortality, and some other things too.

Some would say that Christianity (and practically all religion in general) pull science back and prevented human progress wherever they operate.

Why wouldn't there be science without Christianity? The Greeks, the Romans, the Muslims, the Persians, the Chinese, Asians etc. etc.... have all made scientific discoveries long before Christ was born. In fact, the Romans perfected the scientific method of crucifying enemies of the empire. i.e. How do you kill some terrorist in the most painful way possible; how do you make examples out of them, warning other potential try-hards. You nail them at the wrists, not at the palms as they will just fall off, you nail their feet together over a block to keep them hanging just right... then you stand the cross up by the roads, let their moans and suffering be seen and heard etc. etc.

Science and morality don't necessarily go together. A scientist can invent the most horrifying weapons ever known, and be totally proud of their work as keeping the world safe and such. While a highly moral and intelligent person can be as illiterate as a typical carpenter back 2000 years ago.

I recently had an encounter with a Parish Priest. He's an absolute Grade A prick if there's ever one. His church and its massive carpark is literally sharing the same fence with a Primary Catholic school. To get to the school gate, crossing the carpark is the easiest way...

Yet the prick closed his carpark's gate around school time [8-10; 2:30-4:30]. Well, he left the gate just wide enough for a parent and child to walk through, so he's not a total dick.

Anyway, I know all this because I have to drop a few document to the kids' new school. Parked in "his" carpark and left just 5 minutes after the gate closes. Can't drive out of course, so I wondered why... asked around and was pointed to go see him. He said he can't open it because it closes at etc.

So how do I get out? Wait until 4:30, he said. Are you for real (a hole?). Yes, because If I let you out others will ask to be let out too. I have to look after the safety of the children.

Well, it's 2:35pm, the kids are still in class, and you are asking me to wait until 4:30PM? It's my first time here and I didn't know the rules.

It's clearly written (on A4, laminated print out) on the gate. We must all learn to read the sign. And learn from our mistakes.

Hmm... should I really be sending my kids to be this close to this prick. Shiet, what if he's the principal. Alright, thanks (a hole).

[btw, if you really care for the children's safety, "father", shouldn't you be opening your gate so it's easier for the parents to drop their kids off inside rather than outside on the street? Maybe put on a vest and pick up that lollypop sign to go direct traffic.]

Christ would be very disappointed in a lot of his preachers. But happy birthday either way.

 

[Value Collector]

I meant what the guy was saying made sense to me. Why assume carbon 14 etc was decomposing at the same rate in the very beginning. We just weren't there.

The Christian religion isn't meant to explain science, but a lot of people think that without it (including Milo) there wouldn't be much science at all. I think when you have proper values/morals in a society being practiced, it just becomes natural for technology to develop (a view of many people). I'm sure the other countries would be achieving just as much if they had the same values which we used to have (all people have same brains). The Bible is pretty much about how those morals were spread everywhere, about the hope of human immortality, and some other things too.

Have you bothered to read any of the reasons science has to explain why the physics behind radio active decay remain constant?

The Bible is not a good source of morals, you need to have good moral before reading it, other wise how do you know which parts to ignore?

Eg, the Bible condones slavery, but you ignore that bit, and you ignore it because your morals are actually sourced from outside the Bible to begin with, and you just follow the parts you already agree with.

 

[grah33]

Some would say that Christianity (and practically all religion in general) pull science back and prevented human progress wherever they operate.
...
Christ would be very disappointed in a lot of his preachers. .

Well Luutzu, sounds like you had one of those whirlwind days...yeah, there would be a lot of religious hypocrites out there, and always has been. But you get the good ones too, and some are really good. The minority (including lay people of course) that literally lives with a clear conscience in everything , believe it or not.

True there has been science going on outside of Christianity. But there is a lot too from Christianity . Just my intuition that you need a society that is free so innovation can keep happening, a society that also has good living conditions, and therefore good people in government to ensure that. A democratic one seems to do the job, and that is known to be a Christian system. For instance, freedom of conscience (essential for a healthy democracy) is no doubt a christian thing, and stems from belief in a God (a christian God). but anyway...

The Bible is not a good source of morals, you need to have good moral before reading it, other wise how do you know which parts to ignore?

Eg, the Bible condones slavery, but you ignore that bit, and you ignore it because your morals are actually sourced from outside the Bible to begin with, and you just follow the parts you already agree with.

Your understanding is incorrect. Christians follow the New Testament, simple as that. From memory the Old Testament might have laws about slavery, but that is known to be imperfect. The Judaic law of the Old T was intended for a society that lacked morality , as in those times, hence they stoned/harsh treatment . The new testament explains this well enough. And Jesus overwrites it all well enough with love your enemies and forgiveness. And that verse in the New Testament about slavery which politicians like to bring up, that's not what it means at all.

“lover you enemies”, “to hate your brother is likened to murder”, “forgive 77 times “ “treat others as you would like to be treated”.+ a few more e.g. marriage fidelity... these are a good source of morals imo. Even if somebody kills your parents or child, you still shouldn't hate them.They also say something about the greatness of human dignity

 

[Value Collector]

Well Luutzu, sounds like you had one of those whirlwind days...yeah, there would be a lot of religious hypocrites out there, and always has been. But you get the good ones too, and some are really good. The minority (including lay people of course) that literally lives with a clear conscience in everything , believe it or not.

True there has been science going on outside of Christianity. But there is a lot too from Christianity . Just my intuition that you need a society that is free so innovation can keep happening, a society that also has good living conditions, and therefore good people in government to ensure that. A democratic one seems to do the job, and that is known to be a Christian system. For instance, freedom of conscience (essential for a healthy democracy) is no doubt a christian thing, and stems from belief in a God (a christian God). but anyway...





Your understanding is incorrect. Christians follow the New Testament, simple as that. From memory the Old Testament might have laws about slavery, but that is known to be imperfect. The Judaic law of the Old T was intended for a society that lacked morality , as in those times, hence they stoned/harsh treatment . The new testament explains this well enough. And Jesus overwrites it all well enough with love your enemies and forgiveness. And that verse in the New Testament about slavery which politicians like to bring up, that's not what it means at all.

“lover you enemies”, “to hate your brother is likened to murder”, “forgive 77 times “ “treat others as you would like to be treated”.+ a few more e.g. marriage fidelity... these are a good source of morals imo. Even if somebody kills your parents or child, you still shouldn't hate them.They also say something about the greatness of human dignity

There is immorality in the New Testament too, but are you saying slavery was moral back in the days if the Old Testament?

 

[grah33]

There is immorality in the New Testament too, but are you saying slavery was moral back in the days if the Old Testament?

Seems to me that God was giving them a law suitable for the times and rogue societies that existed back then. So he gave them instructions on how to fairly deal with slaves, even though slavery is outside of what he wanted. What he really wanted, in terms of morality, is revealed later on when the Son appears.

(New T) For the law (old testament law) was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious..... who kill their father or mother or commit other murders..

Perhaps stoning was the only way to control a people that were out of control. They lacked morality , so they weren't ready to receive the more perfect morals. While punishing a murderer by killing them might seem just to some people, it's more morally correct to practice mercy.

 

[luutzu]

Well Luutzu, sounds like you had one of those whirlwind days...yeah, there would be a lot of religious hypocrites out there, and always has been. But you get the good ones too, and some are really good. The minority (including lay people of course) that literally lives with a clear conscience in everything , believe it or not.

True there has been science going on outside of Christianity. But there is a lot too from Christianity . Just my intuition that you need a society that is free so innovation can keep happening, a society that also has good living conditions, and therefore good people in government to ensure that. A democratic one seems to do the job, and that is known to be a Christian system. For instance, freedom of conscience (essential for a healthy democracy) is no doubt a christian thing, and stems from belief in a God (a christian God). but anyway...

Christianity is not the same as democracies and scientific methods etc. Just as a "Christian system" of government, or a Christian society/civilisation/value that such gov't came out of, us automatically great and generous.

For one, Christian kingdoms [Western civilisations] has and still are killing each other practically forever.

Right now, Western civilisation isn't fighting evil Islam as we're told. It's just the same old imperialism expanding its boots on land inhabited by the majority Muslims. that mean "Christian" Washington working with Muslim dictators and warlords... they could also work with other religion or people; or fight other religion or people just the same, as long as it serves their purpose.

An example of Christianity (and any religion in its place) holding back scientific discovery would be Charles Darwin censoring himself from publishing the Origin of Species. He stopped going to Church after his vogages, but still refused to publish his findings until pressured to do so by another scientist to say that if Darwin won't publish his findings then he will publish his same findings and conclusion.

There's the witch burning; the book burnings; slavery; genocide... Christians are up there with the best of them. And if we judge it by today's map and international standards, the Christians did a much better job at those things than other imperial powers.

Though I don't think such things are taught in the Bible; or are the value Christians in general cherished... Just state and religion are not the same. They might serve each other here and there, but what's acceptable Christian value might not be acceptable state policy. And vice versa.

--------------

Yea, I do know a fair amount of good Christians. Though I think they're just good people and that their faith is just another part of themselves. But they would say that they're nice people of their religion, though I know a few who claims to be Christians but are definitely not going to heaven that's for dam sure.

A clear conscience... it comes at a heavy price. It's a lot easier to just be a total a hole sometimes. Maybe not even an a-hole, just a legally binding, by the book kind of guy.

 

[Tink]

As I have mentioned before Luutzu -

The Pope, the President, and the Prime Minister.
Pope John Paul II, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher - that changed the direction of the World.

Pope John Paul II was shot by the Communists/Stalinists..
In the late 80s he came to Melbourne.
I wonder if he would be allowed back in our state - Melbourne.

He had seen his country invaded.

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's

----------------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/is-political-correctness-going-too-far.18326/

 

[grah33]

Christianity is not the same as democracies and scientific methods etc. Just as a "Christian system" of government, or a Christian society/civilisation/value that such gov't came out of, us automatically great and generous.

For one, Christian kingdoms [Western civilisations] has and still are killing each other practically forever.

Yea, I do know a fair amount of good Christians. Though I think they're just good people and that their faith is just another part of themselves. But they would say that they're nice people of their religion, though I know a few who claims to be Christians but are definitely not going to heaven that's for dam sure.

(merry Christmas to you too . Forgot to wish you one...)

Well, these countries and Australia obviously aren't christian anymore. The laws aren't in harmony with Christian morals as they used to be. If they were (and laws /policy are a product of the kind of people we are), I don't think there would be as much chaos as there is now on the planet. Usually bad society and bad laws and bad behavior all go together. But don't expect perfect behavior, nor a perfect track record of a 2000 year old Church.

Many of the really good Christians find they believe strongly as a result of some divine experience, or even miracle. e.g. Heard a story once from a credible source. This guy Barry had a bad back. Was bent over or something. Received a healing and was walking totally normal. Hospital took scans and there were 3 new discs there (they had taken them out before). 3 discs came out of nowhere...Hospital didn't want to give him the scans in case they get sued. That's what she told me. That's a special miracle since she herself could verify it by seeing a bent over guy become straight /normal in front of her eyes.

 

[wayneL]

Haven't really been following this thread because of the inevitable application of luutzu logic, but perhaps God was created in man's image (whatever iteration has been created by the various great religious tribes), irrelevant to what God actually is?

Shear pantheistic (nuanced meaning) speculation..... YMMV

 

[explod]

Haven't really been following this thread because of the inevitable application of luutzu logic, but perhaps God was created in man's image (whatever iteration has been created by the various great religious tribes), irrelevant to what God actually is?

Shear pantheistic (nuanced meaning) speculation..... YMMV

What is YMMV ole Pal ?

God is the corporate icon. Witch Doctor lined the tribe up for the Chief. Jesus ensured that Constantine kept all on their knees and in the fields. Then we have the Queen, die for your country and if that's failing, the TAB, pokies, footy and the great game of cricket. Just party, greed wins.

 

[explod]

Another interesting angle:-

 

[Tink]

All three, Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, and John Paul II all survived assassination attempts, and brought down Soviet Communism

 

[luutzu]

As I have mentioned before Luutzu -

The Pope, the President, and the Prime Minister.
Pope John Paul II, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher - that changed the direction of the World.

Pope John Paul II was shot by the Communists/Stalinists..
In the late 80s he came to Melbourne.
I wonder if he would be allowed back in our state - Melbourne.

He had seen his country invaded.

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's

----------------------------

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/threads/is-political-correctness-going-too-far.18326/

Why wouldn't the Pope be allowed back into Melbourne?

Not all changes are good and welcomed though.

Reagan and Thatcher kicked neo-liberalism into high gear. The decline of Western standard of living has been the result of such policies. Decline for the average working slobs anyway. For the rich, it's been doing pretty dam well.

So if you look at such measure as income inequality, real wage growth vs corporate profit vs productivity; look at the systematic undoing of social safety net; the privatisation of major utilities - and the increased costs to consumers that follow... The Western World was changed... for better or worst we just have to look at how the average western citizen have been faring.

If we look back throughout all of Western civilisations, beside the post WW2 period to about the mid 1970s, the wellbeing of the average citizen in Western/Christian countries are pretty much the same as all other countries. There are the very, very rich at the top. They rule through some sort of devine right given to them and their ancestors by God or Heaven...

Under them are the Courtiers, the Mandarins... well trained, well educated, and very obedient in carrying out what the Majesty ordered.

So those two groups rule the land with absolute power.

The rest are peasants, soldiers, mercenaries, merchants and tradies... your basic working poor and landless peasants.

After WW2, there was some sense of idealism. The godless commies offer an alternative model to capitalistic imperialism... To prevent the population turning against the ruling elite, concessions were made to them. Some crumbs were given up.

Such crumbs include worker's rights, safety regulation, safety net, universal healthcare in most Western countries, free education etc. etc.

These are the policies that made Western civilisation the envy of the world. Just that it hasn't always been there.

Then came the Powell Memorandum [Robert Reiche, Noam Chomsky etc]... where a consultant to the chamber of American business summarise the "crisis of democracy" and what to do about it.

Crisis of democracy is caused by well fed, well educated, well paid population. These peasants actually think they own the place, seriously believe that their votes matter and it is their country, tey have equal rights to this and that nonsense.

So how do you prevent this crisis of democracy that's stopping imperialist wars across the world? That's demanding civil rights, equal pay, healthcare and education?

Forget that such policies are good for the country and the majority of its people, that doesn't matter. What matter is that the peasants must know their place.

But since too much rights had been won, how can the "national interest" be served without causing a violent revolution.

That's when Carter, then Reagan and Thatcher comes in... That's when the likes of Murdoch, Packer and I'm sure other press barons and oligarchs comes together to take back what has always been theirs.

But of course you can't do that openly, people wouldn't put up with it. So you have convenient targets; you paint ugly pictures of your target... welfare queen; lazy grannies scamming the system; illegals, Muslims, migrants, refugees, greenies and noisy activists standing in the way of jobs and progress in "clean coals" etc. etc.

Chris Hedges quoted some smart guys saying that a gov't rarely need to fear foreign invaders. Their first fear is their own citizens rising up against them.

How do you police that? Fight terrorism by spying on everyone, removing everyone's rights...

 

[luutzu]

(merry Christmas to you too . Forgot to wish you one...)

Well, these countries and Australia obviously aren't christian anymore. The laws aren't in harmony with Christian morals as they used to be. If they were (and laws /policy are a product of the kind of people we are), I don't think there would be as much chaos as there is now on the planet. Usually bad society and bad laws and bad behavior all go together. But don't expect perfect behavior, nor a perfect track record of a 2000 year old Church.

Many of the really good Christians find they believe strongly as a result of some divine experience, or even miracle. e.g. Heard a story once from a credible source. This guy Barry had a bad back. Was bent over or something. Received a healing and was walking totally normal. Hospital took scans and there were 3 new discs there (they had taken them out before). 3 discs came out of nowhere...Hospital didn't want to give him the scans in case they get sued. That's what she told me. That's a special miracle since she herself could verify it by seeing a bent over guy become straight /normal in front of her eyes.

Thanks Grah. Hope you and your love ones had a great Christmas too.

I think that as long as Australia, or any other country, has good laws, laws that benefit its citizens... it doesn't need to be a Christian or a Jewish or a Buddhist state. It's just a good state to live in, raise your family and contribute towards.

Australia is a better country because it is not a legally "Christian country". The majority of its people are Christians, it celebrates Christian holy days etc., But if it were to become a "Christian" state, the harm would far outweigh the benefit.

That's not because other religion would be better and such, it's just that a secular democracy is always better than a theocratic state.

For one, it welcome all citizens and their contributions. It make them feel at home. You don't really want fake pretend Christians; and you don't want social unrest from having to send out the Christian police with Bibles and rule on clothing or behaviours.

Second, scientific advances, research and development... religion will prevent such progress.

So I reckon a good country would have laws that actually benefits all of its citizens, not the selected few. Have that for a few generations and the country will be what Australia is.

Problem is... our policies seem to mimic that of the US. A country that, according to a recent UN rapporteur [?], says is top in being the richest and having the biggest military... but is pretty much down the list on every other international measure. Infant mortality; access to healthcare; wealth equality etc. etc.

 

[Value Collector]

Seems to me that God was giving them a law suitable for the times and rogue societies that existed back then. So he gave them instructions on how to fairly deal with slaves, even though slavery is outside of what he wanted. What he really wanted, in terms of morality, is revealed later on when the Son appears.

(New T) For the law (old testament law) was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious..... who kill their father or mother or commit other murders..

Perhaps stoning was the only way to control a people that were out of control. They lacked morality , so they weren't ready to receive the more perfect morals. While punishing a murderer by killing them might seem just to some people, it's more morally correct to practice mercy.

So he was able to tell them not to eat pork or shell fish, yet didn’t have the guts to tell them not to own people?

Seems like your god doesn’t have his priorities in order, or maybe the book was just written by men, and reflects their rules not he rules of a god.

 

[Tink]

Wayne, as you said, the more the left push, the more the right rise.

Mother Government is not Christianity, as Luutzu portrays.
I am a conservative.

Christianity is what our country was built on, our foundations, which includes the upcoming New Year.
Anno domini, the year of our Lord.

 

[luutzu]

....

Many of the really good Christians find they believe strongly as a result of some divine experience, or even miracle. e.g. Heard a story once from a credible source. This guy Barry had a bad back. Was bent over or something. Received a healing and was walking totally normal. Hospital took scans and there were 3 new discs there (they had taken them out before). 3 discs came out of nowhere...Hospital didn't want to give him the scans in case they get sued. That's what she told me. That's a special miracle since she herself could verify it by seeing a bent over guy become straight /normal in front of her eyes.

Yea, I know of two Christian converts who did so because they were convinced they had witness a miracle, a divine experience.

One was my maternal grandmother seeing Mother Maria standing in a glow behind a Church during mass. Grandma converted pretty much right away. I told my year 6 mass class and the old nun wasn't as impressed as I was. But yea, you don't want to sound sceptical about all these religion thing in front of her.

the other was my parent in law. He had a stroke/aneurysm and his wife prayed to God that he would survived it. He did and they attend Church everyday since.

But it's best to leave medicine and such to the scientists.

 

[luutzu]

Wayne, as you said, the more the left push, the more the right rise.

Mother Government is not Christianity, as Luutzu portrays.
I am a conservative.

Christianity is what our country was built on, our foundations, which includes the upcoming New Year.
Anno domini, the year of our Lord.

I'm not sure why a conservative would like Trump or Reagan or Thatcher. I mean, on the political spectrum, yeah, maybe... on the Christian-value conservatism... none of their laws and policies scream of Christian kindness or morality. It's literally dog-eat-dog, go fark yourself, every rich men is by friend while every poverty-stricken mother should go get a job while their sick kid can go die somewhere because there ain't no money for healthcare.

There's plenty for endless wars; plenty more for tax cuts, but diddly for kids and their "healthcare".

I'm not exaggerating. Look up their policies and that's what it is.

Jesus would not approved.

 

[grah33]

So he was able to tell them not to eat pork or shell fish, yet didn’t have the guts to tell them not to own people?

Seems like your god doesn’t have his priorities in order, or maybe the book was just written by men, and reflects their rules not he rules of a god.

I can't give you a good answer for every single thing. I'm guessing it had something to do with the kind of society there was back then. People were sacrificing children, raping , they had intercourse with animals, polygamy and killing for convenience. (side comment: we're actually gravitating there but in a different way – convenience abortion (instead of child sacrifice), and we're sodomizing with the gay marriage thing...)

This answer though is good enough for me :

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you .
“

And we do that because of the greatness of human dignity. As I said before the Law was for a people that lacked morality, but the morals of Jesus are for a more sane society. And no Law was given in the Gospel , since this wouldn't be practical. Countries make their own laws, and if the laws are in harmony with Jesus's values, then it will be a good law. If not, I think that living conditions etc will go down, and, as we're seeing now, the arrival of Big Brother (after the vote).