Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

You mean seven is a lucky number ?

It seems arbitrary to me. If the Bible said it was 9 days, what difference would it make ?

The people that designed the calendar would have just made it around the number 9, and then cynic would be saying how insightful that was.

It's funny, out of all the positive claims the bible creation myth claims, it's know been reduced down to, "well they used the number 7, and that matches up with some modern use of that number"

Firstly any application of that number that came after the bible was written, eg our modern calendar, is probably not coincidence, and even if there is some significance to it, people would have been tracking lunar cycles etc for thousands of years before the bible was written.

 

[cynic]

Normally I would post this comment in the crazy thread, however, it seems that this thread has, in some respects, become an extension.

I believe that each of us is entitled to make our own enquiry into the questions of higher beings, afterlives etc. , and form their own opinions and/or convictions. The idea that there exists some infallible and obligatory metric that must be satisfied before anyone can entertain the possibility of otherwise unproven concepts, seems somewhat limited and likely to hamper humanity's progress in the quest for further knowledge.

To those whom are genuinely undecided about the existence of a divine or higher intelligence, I invite you to find a quiet moment in your life and direct a sincere prayer for evidence of existence.

Observe what happens and draw your own conclusions!

 

[cynic]

The people that designed the calendar would have just made it around the number 9, and then cynic would be saying how insightful that was.

It's funny, out of all the positive claims the bible creation myth claims, it's know been reduced down to, "well they used the number 7, and that matches up with some modern use of that number"

Firstly any application of that number that came after the bible was written, eg our modern calendar, is probably not coincidence, and even if there is some significance to it, people would have been tracking lunar cycles etc for thousands of years before the bible was written.

No. The number nine quite simply doesn't accommodate the division of a year neatly into seasons and lunar cycles, however, I do agree that this knowledge was very likely to have predated the biblical texts.

 

[luutzu]

No. The number nine quite simply doesn't accommodate the division of a year neatly into seasons and lunar cycles, however, I do agree that this knowledge was very likely to have predated the biblical texts.

The Chinese for one.

Use the Lunar Calendar for thousands of years. They still do.

Heard it's more accurate and more useful to predict tides and season than the Solar. But not as accurate measuring cycle around the Sun... guess weren't supposed to.

 

[cynic]

The Chinese for one.

Use the Lunar Calendar for thousands of years. They still do.

Heard it's more accurate and more useful to predict tides and season than the Solar. But not as accurate measuring cycle around the Sun... guess weren't supposed to.

I've often been impressed by the inventions of the Eastern world, whilst at the same time dismayed by the way that the western world is so quick to steal the credit after finally catching on to the usefulness of such innovations.

 

[Tink]

Normally I would post this comment in the crazy thread, however, it seems that this thread has, in some respects, become an extension.

I believe that each of us is entitled to make our own enquiry into the questions of higher beings, afterlives etc. , and form their own opinions and/or convictions. The idea that there exists some infallible and obligatory metric that must be satisfied before anyone can entertain the possibility of otherwise unproven concepts, seems somewhat limited and likely to hamper humanity's progress in the quest for further knowledge.

To those whom are genuinely undecided about the existence of a divine or higher intelligence, I invite you to find a quiet moment in your life and direct a sincere prayer for evidence of existence.

Observe what happens and draw your own conclusions!

+1

Good to see you in here, cynic.

------------------------------------

Bellenuit, you are entitled to your views, thankfully we live in a free society, for now.

What the left are doing, in my view, is a dangerous move, and the common practice in the Soviet Union.

It is interesting to note that Communism has always been about re-writing history, lawlessness.

George Orwell’s 1984

As I mentioned in my last post --

The attempt to airbrush historical stuff from the present is the height of authoritarianism.

It’s an attempt not merely to control what people can think and say today

“He who controls the past controls the future,” said Orwell. Yes, that’s it.

The intolerant students and others seeking to smash past images and ideas really have their eye on establishing their future authority to determine what all of us may think and say.

 

[Tisme]

Yes, sadly human behaviour has repeatedly demonstrated this tendency throughout history.

One of the things I find interesting about this discussion is the way in which it highlights the willingness to accept the authority of an agreeable viewpoint without question, whilst at the same time visiting any conflicting viewpoint with the utmost of scepticism.

It would be even more interesting if parties to each side of the debate were to unilaterally review their personal beliefs with the same degree of scepticism that they typically reserve for others.

True scepticism isn't defined as simply questioning the things one doesn't happen to believe, that would be more akin to prejudice or bigotry.

Is any one here willing to make a sincere endeavour to examine all sides of this debate with true scepticism?

You don't think your own post shows a bias to your own desire to express and impose your own opinion?

I wonder how open minded you will be when you do an introspective and find out you are just as susceptible as the rest of us to bigotted closed mindedness and social engineering.

 

[Tisme]

Not if they have valid reasoning to back up their claims.

Validity of argument is at best subjective, normally a non sequitur when viewed by the protagonist.

 

[Tisme]

The people that designed the calendar would have just made it around the number 9, and then cynic would be saying how insightful that was.

It's funny, out of all the positive claims the bible creation myth claims, it's know been reduced down to, "well they used the number 7, and that matches up with some modern use of that number"

Firstly any application of that number that came after the bible was written, eg our modern calendar, is probably not coincidence, and even if there is some significance to it, people would have been tracking lunar cycles etc for thousands of years before the bible was written.

I tend to agree with you on this score VC. Certainly the Church is currently reviewing Easter celebrations, with the view it should be a set date in our calendar rather than lunar tracking it.

Seven is certainly used frequently in the old bible, but so is 12, (12 sons Jacobs, Gods's temple loaves,etc) and Jesus liked 12 too:- disciples, legions of angels, gates and dimensions of New Jerusalem, salvation army come end of times, etc.

I think it was the Egyptians who locked into the apparent twelve solar months long before the Romans came along. The seven days is a no brainer to a fishing addict: ~28 day lunar cycle, first day crescent moon, seven days later half moon, seven days later full moon, seven days later half moon, etc.

 

[Value Collector]

.

It is interesting to note that Communism has always been about re-writing history, lawlessness.

George Orwell’s 1984

.
[/I]

You are obsessed with communism Tink, you are the only one bringing it up, and no one here is mentioning anything that could be described as communism.

lawlessness

No, that anarchy, not communism, communism is full of rules.

 

[cynic]

You don't think your own post shows a bias to your own desire to express and impose your own opinion?

I wonder how open minded you will be when you do an introspective and find out you are just as susceptible as the rest of us to bigotted closed mindedness and social engineering.

Actually I do think that my own posts regularly expose my personal bias and I also agrèe with your comments about susceptibility to bigotry and social engineering.

Did I ever claim to be unprejudiced?

 

[luutzu]

+1

Good to see you in here, cynic.

------------------------------------

Bellenuit, you are entitled to your views, thankfully we live in a free society, for now.

What the left are doing, in my view, is a dangerous move, and the common practice in the Soviet Union.

It is interesting to note that Communism has always been about re-writing history, lawlessness.

George Orwell’s 1984

As I mentioned in my last post --

The attempt to airbrush historical stuff from the present is the height of authoritarianism.

It’s an attempt not merely to control what people can think and say today

“He who controls the past controls the future,” said Orwell. Yes, that’s it.

The intolerant students and others seeking to smash past images and ideas really have their eye on establishing their future authority to determine what all of us may think and say.

Pretty sure that if Christians were to ask and do what Jesus would do, Australia wouldn't be built by Christians, as you say.

King George: I say governor, what say you go to that Southern Land and claim it for us before them Dutch stake claim to it too. I'm sure that's what Jesus would want us to do. Isn't that right Bishop?

Not sure what Jesus would do if He comes back and take a walk down the Wall Streets of the world. Or God forbid visit the high priests and their not-modest accommodation and treasuries.


In the end, I think, does it matter if Christianity is less prominent in Australians public lives? As long as our God-fearing and mostly "Christian" politicians still care for the people, look after the sick and not at all pay themselves modest life-time pensions and cutting welfare all over the place... as long as that's still achieved and you and fellow Christians still could practice your religion in peace and without oppression. What's the harm right?

As Lao Tzu said, the Great Man do his good work until it is done. Once done he retreat from the world.

 

[Value Collector]

Our 3.5 year old have been asking us to draw and cut out the solar system for him (3 times a day, two months now). It's cheap so I don't mind, and the kid could be kept busy for at least an hour afterwards playing with the planets.

One of his favourite youtube video show Earth in relation to the entire solar system, then relative to the various known stars.. and there is a star that scientist have discovered so far where if a half of it takes up half an iPad our Earth is probably a pixel.

.

 

[stockscbd]

View attachment 65570

Australia should be French!

 

[SirRumpole]

"Every kid starts out as a natural born scientist, and then we beat it out of them"

That's true but I don't think the beating is done just by religion which is becoming less influential these days.

It's being done by the "instant gratification" of social media, the dumbing down of school curriculums and the presentation of scientists as "nerds" and "wonks" who are too smart for the rest of society.

You need great teachers to instill enthusiasm for science and maths in children, and I'm afraid that the trading of quality education for mass market lowest common denominator education is what is dragging our kids down, not the ever scapegoated religion.

Why do religious private schools generally have the better education standards if religion is such a drag on education ?

 

[Tisme]

Actually I do think that my own posts regularly expose my personal bias and I also agrèe with your comments about susceptibility to bigotry and social engineering.

Did I ever claim to be unprejudiced?

Goddammit cynic, can't you just disagree just once !!!!

 

[Tisme]

"Every kid starts out as a natural born scientist, and then we beat it out of them"

?

So Tarzan and Mowgli would have been genius scientists?

 

[pixel]

"Every kid starts out as a natural born scientist, and then we beat it out of them"

That's true but I don't think the beating is done just by religion which is becoming less influential these days.

It's being done by the "instant gratification" of social media, the dumbing down of school curriculums and the presentation of scientists as "nerds" and "wonks" who are too smart for the rest of society.

You need great teachers to instill enthusiasm for science and maths in children, and I'm afraid that the trading of quality education for mass market lowest common denominator education is what is dragging our kids down, not the ever scapegoated religion.

Why do religious private schools generally have the better education standards if religion is such a drag on education ?

You need to differentiate, methinks.

Not all "religious" private schools are equal. Yes, a lot of the top achievers each year come from a handful of Catholic or Methodist or Cathedral Grammar. But every year, there is also a select group of public schools featuring a high percentage of High Achievers. (Haven't seen an Islamic school mentioned though.)
In my experience, the common factor across "successful schools" lies more in the fact that they value self-respect and discipline, rather than religious doctrine. That set of values can prevail in a public school just as easily as it can in a private one. Funny enough, where these values are upheld and supported by the bulk of teachers and students' parents, you find academic excellence on a par, regardless whether the school is private or public.

I agree with you about broad-based dumbing-down and striving for the lowest common denominator. Sadly, a particular faction of social engineers have introduced this mad concept of political correctness, where a child's rights come first, but responsibility and discipline are to be shunned because they could stunt a kid's fragile ego. Unwittingly, these "democrats" push their charges towards conformity, make them follow bland norms that are dominated by social media, which ultimately turns out unquestioning consumers of whatever junk Big Business and Entertainment Media trot out as "role models".

 

[Value Collector]

Why do religious private schools generally have the better education standards if religion is such a drag on education ?

Firstly, the more religious they are the worse they do, for example the really fundamentalist Islam and Christian schools can be appalling.

But few reasons others may excel is, generally they have more resources available to them, they dip into both the public and private monies.

Secondly, I think there is a chicken and the egg situation happening here, by this I mean society in general has a view that private schools are better, So a lot of people that really care about education and raising good children will choose a private school, the fact that this child might go on to excel, may have less to do with the school itself, but is highly related to the fact that the child grew up in a home that valued education with parents that would take extra steps to help their children succeed.

I watched freakanomics the other night, and it made the point that if your the type of parent who read 10 books about raising children, you will probably be a better parent, but not because you read the books, it will be because your the type of person to care enough to buy and read the books, just caring enough to go out and read books shows you are already probably going to be an above average parent.

Also public schools have to take everyone, a lot of private schools pick and choose who they take, meaning they start with a clutch of slightly better stock, and then kids who aren't achieving may be dropped, eg if a child isn't performing, some parents will remove the child but to a cheaper school if they feel they aren't getting value.

 

[Value Collector]

So Tarzan and Mowgli would have been genius scientists?

apart from the fact they are fictional characters.

each generation of scientists stands on the shoulders of the ones who went before, taking whats been learned already and adding to it, So no tarzan wouldn't have been able to build a rocket, but his curiosity and willingness to learn and explore would have been there.