Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[SirRumpole]

Here is a good explanation of the most likely cause a déjà vu. We have all had it, for a moment we have all thought we had experienced this situation before in a vision, but no, its just our brain fooling us again.

its actually a really informative video, it only goes for 6mins, I think you guys will really get something out of it.

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CSf8i8bHIns[/video]

Can't see the association with life after death, but at least I know I'm not going senile because I can't remember obscure people or places.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yes, but with 50,000,000 people dying each year, wouldn't we have a lot more examples to work with, wouldn't with such large volumes of spirits getting around we should have testable data regularly.

Not necessarily. If people go into another dimension when they die what makes you think we should be able to see them ? We can only see three dimensions.

What about all the examples of people who have said they will come back if there is an after life, Harry Houdini the famous magician and less famous sceptic and buster of psychics promised when he died, no matter what the cost to his immortal soul, he would come back and let us know, An annual seance has be held by his family and friends for the last 70 years, he has never showed.

People who are unaware of how things operate after they die made promises they couldn't keep.

Also, is it all 10,000,000 species of animals that have after lives, or just humans? What about chimps?

Who knows ? Do you talk to many chimps ?

And why is that these things mostly happen at night when we are close to sleep in the dark, when we are so close to dream state.

Perhaps our minds are more relaxed at that time.

And why have i not been visited?

What makes you think you are anything special ?

 

[pavilion103]

Lol drilled. Good work!

 

[Julia]

I agree, I'm a bit dubious of a 'rejection bias' idea to justify faith in anecdotes: the whole principle of science/emperialism is that we SHOULD reject ideas until we're provided sufficient proof.

A suggestion that we should lower this standard to allow for some leeway/faith is to depart from rationality and delve into blind faith.

What I was actually thinking of when agreeing with Rumpole that 'rejection bias' exists is climate change, rather than some supernatural anecdotal account.

I'm sceptical about the degree to which anthropogenic factors are responsible, and this probably renders my attitude biased against some of the very hysterical claims about civilisation being doomed.
(This is not any wish on my part to divert the thread into anything to do with climate change, hell no, but just an explanation of why I agreed that such a bias does exist.)

 

[Value Collector]

Not necessarily. If people go into another dimension when they die what makes you think we should be able to see them ? We can only see three dimensions.



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Well if we can't see, hear or sense them in anyway, that kind off blows your anecdotal stories out of the water.

Firstly your saying the evidence is that people have experienced them, now your saying we can't, because they are in another dimension, also before we jump to conclusions about things existing in other dimensions, you should probably focus on proving other dimensions exist.

People who are unaware of how things operate after they die made promises they couldn't keep

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Ok, so these spirits seem to be able to come into our dimension to creepily watch people sleep, but can't fulfil a mission they said they would?

Who knows ? Do you talk to many chimps ?

Whats me talking to chimps got to do with anything? I am wondering if people around north sydney have been woken in their sleep by the ghosts of chimps that passed away at Toronga zoo, or the ghosts of rats?

Perhaps our minds are more relaxed at that time

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No doubt the are, and this relaxation probably put them in a dream state.

What makes you think you are anything special

Well friends and family want to spend time with me while they were alive, why not when they are dead?

Do ghosts only visit certain kinds of people?

 

[Value Collector]

Can't see the association with life after death, but at least I know I'm not going senile because I can't remember obscure people or places.

Deja vu is just another example of the way people can trick them selves into thinking they have had visions.

Its another phenomena that the majority of people don't understand, so they jump to supernatural conclusions, I have also heard people use their own déjà vu experiences as a reason to believe in psychics, they said "even I get mini little glimpse into the future sometimes, you know like déjà vu, so why wouldn't I believe others have learned to hone this skill"

When you not a sceptical person, you set yourself up to be taken advantage of by hucksters selling all sorts of flim flam, whether than be religion, psychic readings, homeopathy, mystic healing etc etc

A healthy level of scepticism is the only way to protect yourself from the next charlatan your encounter, other wise you will end up like Pav.

 

[Tink]

VC, you just go on and on with no concept of what religion has actually contributed in society.

You really must be devoid of any beauty or warmth, from language, to music, to architecture, the list goes on.
Do you know the depth of what religion has contributed?

Where does morality come from?

If you are talking about, survival of the fittest, yes, you are on the right path to just thinking about yourself, but religion has always been about caring about others and giving.

Why do you keep saying, can't we make up our own set of rules. regarding the ten commandments, this is rubbish.
Yet it has kept this country standing until now.

Christianity is the foundation of this country.

 

[SirRumpole]

A healthy level of scepticism is the only way to protect yourself from the next charlatan your encounter, other wise you will end up like Pav.

I think I have a healthy level of scepticism. I think most psychics can be dismissed as charlatans, especially if they do it for money. If people are really psychic and want to make money out of their "gift", why bother having seances (or mucking around with The Great Randi), instead of just picking the Lotto numbers each week ? But that doesn't mean I automatically dismiss anecdotal evidence as being worthless. Taken with a grain of salt certainly, and look for mundane causes of their experiences first, but if you can't find mundane explanations then you have to accept that there may be something in what they say.

Well if we can't see, hear or sense them in anyway, that kind off blows your anecdotal stories out of the water.

Most ghosts appear to people very soon after their death. On their way to the next dimension.

 

[Tink]

SirRumpole, great posts

 

[Value Collector]

You really must be devoid of any beauty or warmth, from language, to music, to architecture, the list goes on.
Do you know the depth of what religion has contributed?

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lol, I am not immune to beauty, wonder or awe I can have my breath taken away by the view across a valley or even learning a new fact about the universe, I enjoy both music and architecture, but I don't know why I would have to believe in a god to enjoy these things.

Yes, the religions did build some great buildings in honour of themselves, you can do that when your swindling the population and they are handing you enormous amounts of unearned income, when it comes to music, I find a lot more meaning in non religious music.

Where does morality come from?

Morality comes from empathy, not religion. Empathy would have evolved in humans as we became social animals, anti social, selfish individuals without empathy would have been ejected from the group, and had a lower survival rate, social animals with empathy would have flourished in the group and survived and breed at a higher rate.

That's evolution, not scripture.

You actually need morality before you read the bible, other wise how would you distinguish between the good stuff and the bad stuff?

If you are talking about, survival of the fittest, yes, you are on the right path to just thinking about yourself, but religion has always been about caring about others and giving.

Survival of the fittest is not about caring for yourself when it comes to social animals like humans, The "fittest" were the ones who worked together in groups the best, protected each other, feed each other and ensure their shared genes were passed down.

But survival of the fittest is just the story of how we got here, no one here is saying its what we should base our society on today.

Why do you keep saying, can't we make up our own set of rules. regarding the ten commandments, this is rubbish.
Yet it has kept this country standing until now.

Because we can and have developed better rules than are in the bible, and the ten commandments are not a great list, any thinking person could write a better list, get rid of the first 4 for a start and you would have room for some better ones.

Christianity is the foundation of this country

No it's not, But you can believe that if you want, just try not to force your nonsense on the rest of us.

 

[Value Collector]

and look for mundane causes of their experiences first, but if you can't find mundane explanations then you have to accept that there may be something in what they say.
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That's just a combination of two logical fallacies, 1. Anecdotal evidence 2. argument from ignorance

Most ghosts appear to people very soon after their death. On their way to the next dimension

See what your doing there, your inventing a story to justify your belief. In response to questions rather than say "I don't know" your saying "Oh, no, the ghosts just must be on there way to the other dimension" that's just baseless rationalization.

you have no evidence that the other dimension exists or that its even possible for a ghost to exist, all you have is some anecdotal stories that you are taking on faith because you can't explain them, when they may not even be true.

 

[SirRumpole]

See what your doing there, your inventing a story to justify your belief. In response to questions rather than say "I don't know" your saying "Oh, no, the ghosts just must be on there way to the other dimension" that's just baseless rationalization.

That is my theory to explain your question about why ghosts don't appear all the time. Of course I don't know, but scientists don't know what dark matter is, yet they keep making up theories to explain it.

you have no evidence that the other dimension exists or that its even possible for a ghost to exist, all you have is some anecdotal stories that you are taking on faith because you can't explain them, when they may not even be true.

Ever heard of string theory ? It predicts the existence of other dimensions. If you don't believe it then I suggest you write to the scientists responsible for that theory and tell them that it's rubbish.

 

[Value Collector]

That is my theory to explain your question about why ghosts don't appear all the time. Of course I don't know, but scientists don't know what dark matter is, yet they keep making up theories to explain it.



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No, it's your hypothesis, not theory. Actually it's not even a hypothesis, it's just a straight out rationalisation.

Ever heard of string theory ? It predicts the existence of other dimensions. If you don't believe it then I suggest you write to the scientists responsible for that theory and tell them that it's rubbish

Yes I have heard of it, and it is one of the most misrepresented ideas by pseudoscience, probably second only to quantum mechanics.

It in no way describes the types of dimensions you are talking about, just like quantum mechanics, people trying to justify all sorts of "Woo" often bring up string theory, string theory does not help you in anyway to justify the claims you are making.

 

[Value Collector]

If anyone is in doubt as to whether altruism, selflessness, kindness and charity etc, were developed by evolution here is a 11 minute video that clearly lays out how all these things are based on natural selection.

Many people have a false understanding of survival of the fittest, they think it only leads to selfishness, but this is not true in social animals. There is many reasons why the genes carried in animals that care for other members of their group will survive.

for example, if I kill a deer and use it to feed my nieces and nephews, or if I risk my life to protect my nieces and nephews I am still ensuring the survival of my genes, because my nieces, nephews and cousins all share 99.999% of their genes with me.

It's not about the survival of the individual, it's about the survival of the genes, Same can be said for honey bees, I bee defending the hive dies, but it allows its sisters and queen who share it's genes to live on and multiply.

 

[Knobby22]

Richard can justify his many marriages then.

 

[SirRumpole]

It in no way describes the types of dimensions you are talking about, just like quantum mechanics, people trying to justify all sorts of "Woo" often bring up string theory, string theory does not help you in anyway to justify the claims you are making.

I doubt if you have the qualifications to define the nature of other dimensions or what they may contain. Maybe you should follow your own advice, and if you don't know, just say so.

 

[Value Collector]

I doubt if you have the qualifications to define the nature of other dimensions or what they may contain. Maybe you should follow your own advice, and if you don't know, just say so.

Well, I am not a physicist, but have read enough on string theory, and seen enough real physicists express their displeasure at how string theory is used to try and prove all sorts of pseudoscience, to know that the things your trying to say, are not what string theory is about.

it would be the equivalent of someone trying the use the theory of evolution to justify a belief in mermaids.

Hearing that humans share ancestry with fish might give a believer in mermaids some sort of feeling that they are on the right track, but anyone with a real understanding of evolution of species would see right through their claims.

this is what your doing here, you really want to believe in an after life, and have developed this personal "theory" to rationalise it, and have heard scientist talk about dimensions, and your bending a theory to try and rationalise your beliefs.

 

[SirRumpole]

Well, I am not a physicist, but have read enough on string theory, and seen enough real physicists express their displeasure at how string theory is used to try and prove all sorts of pseudoscience, to know that the things your trying to say, are not what string theory is about.

Scientists don't have a mortgage on how the Universe works. They don't "Own" string theory, the Law of Gravitation, or any other principle that they have merely demonstrated existed long before they did. If what they discover can explain other things that they never bother thinking about then they should be pleased that maybe they discovered more than they bargained for.

 

[Value Collector]

Scientists don't have a mortgage on how the Universe works. They don't "Own" string theory, the Law of Gravitation, or any other principle that they have merely demonstrated existed long before they did. If what they discover can explain other things that they never bother thinking about then they should be pleased that maybe they discovered more than they bargained for.

What I am talking about is taking a scientific theory out of context, or grabbing some key words to try and give credit to pseudoscience / mythical beliefs.

For example People such a Deepak Chopra try to use quantum mechanics to justify a belief that you can create things with your mind and the universe will respond to your thoughts. There is absolutely nothing in quantum mechanics that suggests this.

You should be able to see that when scientists spend decades piecing together an understanding of an aspect of the universe, You can't just come along and say. "Yep, they said different dimensions may theoretically exist, that's proof of ghosts" you actually have to go and get an understanding of what they mean by dimensions.

As I said it's just like the mermaid example I gave, your jumping to a huge false conclusion that is not supported by any of the actual science behind the theory.

Not to mention you are about 10 steps ahead of yourself, the first step is to prove that consciousness can survive outside of a brain, once that is proved then you can move on.

 

[SirRumpole]

Yep, they said different dimensions may theoretically exist, that's proof of ghosts" you actually have to go and get an understanding of what they mean by dimensions.

OK, so explain to me how string theory's idea of dimensions contradicts with what I'm saying.