Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[Value Collector]

It would be nice to be able to prove beliefs but as I said there are things that cannot be proved one way or the other, so it comes down to belief.

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So why would you believe something which can not be proven?

It may not be possible to disprove it, But I think if it were true, there would be ways to prove it, so the fact that it is unproven, leads me to think it is more than likely not true.

The logical position would be to claim unbelieving Agnosticism on the subject.

If you seek absolute evidence for life after death then you are going to be disappointed. As I also said before what we believe is irrelevant because we will all die and we will then find out the truth.

Beliefs inform your actions, So the things you believe are not irrelevant.

I'm fascinated by your apparent need to refute the possibility of an afterlife. Why does it matter so much to you that people not believe in life after death ? What others believe about this subject does not influence how you live your life one iota so the argument although interesting, is irrelevant

I don't have a need to refute an after life, If there was an after life it would be one of the most interesting topics I know of, and I would want to learn more about it. So when someone says they have evidence of one, I will always look into it, and if I find the person has made logical mistakes, I will try and explain that to them.

During my life I have believed all sorts of nonsense, But over time I have learned that it is much more important to believe things that are true, and I have developed a very sceptical mindset, my scepticism is very important to me, I feel it leads me to make better life decisions, and makes me a better person. So when I come across people who are basing parts of their life on unfounded beliefs, I sometimes ask questions to try and inspire a little scepticism in them.

I feel the more true things you believe and the less false things you believe the better, but one of the questions I always ask is "Do you care if the things you believe are true", if the person says "No, I just want to believe them because it makes me feel good", that's fine, I don't press on, But if the person says "yes, I do care", then I feel a responsibility to help that person identify areas where they are making logical mistakes,

 

[Julia]

Whether there is some sort of spiritual after life is an interesting subject and the discussion worth having imo, not because anyone is likely to prove or disprove it, but rather because it's fascinating to know what people believe.
It's probably a parallel belief to religion, ie a comfort in the face of the end of life.

My late father, although despising religion, had what to me was a weird conviction that there was another dimension. A few years before he died I suggested he promise to send me a sign of his continued 'existence' when he died. He agreed.

So he eventually did die, suicide. I waited for the communication. One night in the small hours, I was wakened by what sounded like soft, regular breathing. I thought "wow, here's father, come to keep his promise". I waited for something more, some words perhaps? Nothing at all, but the breathing noise continued. It happened on a few more occasions, seeming to come from outside rather than within the room. So I got out of bed and followed the sound. It was a small creature, no idea exactly what, about the size of a hedgehog but without prickles, that was snuffling its way round, presumably looking for food.

So nothing happening on that front.

But separately, a few years later I was walking past his house, then tenanted and spoke with the tenants outside. Nice, ordinary people, middle aged, unimaginative. I mentioned it had been my father's house, how were the fruit trees etc. They said they loved the house and garden but had to move on, looking uncomfortable as they said this. When I pressed them, they said in some embarrassment that they felt there was a 'presence' in the house. The woman described how she would be woken in the night by the sense of someone sitting on the bed in the main bedroom. She then said she had the sensation that the person was wet, entirely drenched, and in pain.

It so happens that my father drowned himself. She said she had no idea of the method of my father's death.
Now, I have no idea whether there's anything in this or not. Perhaps in fact this woman was more imaginative than I'd judged, maybe a neighbour might have mentioned something about the drowning, maybe they were just restless people who moved often.

I don't have any belief that there is anything after I die, but vaguely think it would be rather nice if I did have.

 

[SirRumpole]

A very interesting story Julia, and my condolences regarding your father and the means of his death.

Anecdotes like yours abound, proving nothing in themselves, but they all add up towards perhaps a meaningful conclusion. The fact that your tenants had no idea of your fathers departing or its means but had sensations that describe it could be considered a form of unbiased evidence.

My late mother reported having a vision of our neighbor in our house, the next morning we learnt of the death of our neighbor from natural causes. My mother didn't lie about anything and her degree of upset when she told me of her vision was enough to confirm to me that her experience was real.

Of course, the cynics will dismiss these type of events, but I don't particularly care. As I say, they all add up.

 

[Value Collector]

Anecdotes like yours abound, proving nothing in themselves, but they all add up towards perhaps a meaningful conclusion. The fact that your tenants had no idea of your fathers departing or its means but had sensations that describe it could be considered a form of unbiased evidence

.

Not at all, many anecdotal stories do not add up to proof, do you accept the multiple stories of alien abduction as proof earth is regularly visited by aliens?

it hasn't actually been shown that the tenants didn't know, I couldn't imagine the topic would have been skipped by the neighbourhood gossip cycle.

 

[Value Collector]

Whether there is some sort of spiritual after life is an interesting subject and the discussion worth having imo, not because anyone is likely to prove or disprove it, but rather because it's fascinating to know what people believe.
It's probably a parallel belief to religion, ie a comfort in the face of the end of life.

My late father, although despising religion, had what to me was a weird conviction that there was another dimension. A few years before he died I suggested he promise to send me a sign of his continued 'existence' when he died. He agreed.

So he eventually did die, suicide. I waited for the communication. One night in the small hours, I was wakened by what sounded like soft, regular breathing. I thought "wow, here's father, come to keep his promise". I waited for something more, some words perhaps? Nothing at all, but the breathing noise continued. It happened on a few more occasions, seeming to come from outside rather than within the room. So I got out of bed and followed the sound. It was a small creature, no idea exactly what, about the size of a hedgehog but without prickles, that was snuffling its way round, presumably looking for food.

So nothing happening on that front.

But separately, a few years later I was walking past his house, then tenanted and spoke with the tenants outside. Nice, ordinary people, middle aged, unimaginative. I mentioned it had been my father's house, how were the fruit trees etc. They said they loved the house and garden but had to move on, looking uncomfortable as they said this. When I pressed them, they said in some embarrassment that they felt there was a 'presence' in the house. The woman described how she would be woken in the night by the sense of someone sitting on the bed in the main bedroom. She then said she had the sensation that the person was wet, entirely drenched, and in pain.

It so happens that my father drowned himself. She said she had no idea of the method of my father's death.
Now, I have no idea whether there's anything in this or not. Perhaps in fact this woman was more imaginative than I'd judged, maybe a neighbour might have mentioned something about the drowning, maybe they were just restless people who moved often.

I don't have any belief that there is anything after I die, but vaguely think it would be rather nice if I did have.

Thanks for sharing your story Julia,

thats actually a funny story about the breathing you thought was your father, You can probably see how many people have had experiences like this and not investigated, and instead just gone ahead believing that they have had a supernatural encounter, you can also see how people can jump to supernatural conclusions which are completely unjustified.

I have not been immune to such things, I once was convinced there was a ghost in my bathroom, every night as I was going to sleep my toilet would make sounds like someone was playing flicking the water, this went on for weeks, every night just as i turned the lights off and tried to sleep. later i learned we had a partial blockage in the pipe, and my routine of having a shower just before bed was causing the water pressure in the pipe to cause bubbles to pop up in the toilet. If I had a relative pass, perhaps I would have thought it was him.

My partner who used to really believe in ghosts was regularly jumping to conclusions of ghosts, at her cousins funeral a family photo was taken, the photo made it look like it was snowing, the whole family said this was because the cousin who has passed loved the snow, and was showing his presence. however i did some research, and the snowing effect was a common thing that happens in low light condition photos.

another time we traveled to New Zealand for my grandmothers funeral, me and my partner were sleeping on an air bed in the lounge room, with my auntie on the couch, My partner woke me up terrified that my dead grandmothers ghost was outside the window breathing. We sat there for a few minutes and i couldn't here anything, she was convinced breathing was coming out the window, finally I said, all i could here was my aunties faint snoring, when my partner finally moved her head, she realised she was hearing my aunties snoring, and having one ear down on the pillow was creating an audio illusion of the sound coming from the other side.

in regards to your tenant, I wouldn't write of the possibility that they have heard your dad's story, and why is it so many of these ghost encounters happen at night, as people are drifting off to sleep? Could it be that when people are in the dark, and quite, and able to hear faint sounds they normally can't, and are in a semi dream state as they slowly drift off to sleep imagine these things?

 

[Julia]

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Not at all, many anecdotal stories do not add up to proof, do you accept the multiple stories of alien abduction as proof earth is regularly visited by aliens?

it hasn't actually been shown that the tenants didn't know, I couldn't imagine the topic would have been skipped by the neighbourhood gossip cycle.

I thought Rumpole's response was interesting in that (no offence intended, Rumpole) he seemed to discount my thought that perhaps a neighbour had mentioned the way my father died) and accept that the tenants' account of their experience likely did indicate some spiritual event. Goes to the way we naturally seek confirmation of existing views.

Thanks for sharing your story Julia,

thats actually a funny story about the breathing you thought was your father, You can probably see how many people have had experiences like this and not investigated, and instead just gone ahead believing that they have had a supernatural encounter, you can also see how people can jump to supernatural conclusions which are completely unjustified.

Yes, I told it because it was funny and because at the time I felt pretty foolish for even entertaining the thought that it was my father's breathing.

(This is off topic, but I'm reminded of another instance when I was even more stupid: became aware of a sound which seemed to be coming in from open windows of a chirping bird, becoming annoying when it continued even at night. Bloody thing was keeping me awake. Asked a neighbour if he'd heard it. No. When I described it, he very courteously explained that it was the smoke alarm battery!) Had never had one before, didn't know it made that sound when battery needed replacing.

why is it so many of these ghost encounters happen at night, as people are drifting off to sleep? Could it be that when people are in the dark, and quite, and able to hear faint sounds they normally can't, and are in a semi dream state as they slowly drift off to sleep imagine these things?

Yes, not dissimilar to the sense one has when emerging from a dream when the dream seems totally real.

 

[SirRumpole]

I thought Rumpole's response was interesting in that (no offence intended, Rumpole) he seemed to discount my thought that perhaps a neighbour had mentioned the way my father died) and accept that the tenants' account of their experience likely did indicate some spiritual event. Goes to the way we naturally seek confirmation of existing views.

You are correct, and later I thought I should have written if your tenants did not know of your fathers passing... etc. It would be interesting to confirm whether they did or not, but if they have moved out it would not be worth pursuing. However, if it transpired that they were not aware of the events, what would one's conclusion be ?

I suppose VC is would say that my mother was on drugs when she saw my dead neighbor, but I can assure him that is not the case.

 

[SirRumpole]

Goes to the way we naturally seek confirmation of existing views.

Indeed, but there is also rejection bias in which one rejects all evidence of something that they don't personally believe in. There is plenty of that going around as well.

 

[Calliope]

Since experiencing a weird and inexplicable sighting when I was 14, I have always been interested in the relationship between poltergeist activity and adolescence.

I find this stuff intriguing.

http://weirdaustralia.com/2011/10/22/poltergeist-rocks-town-the-stone-throwing-ghost-of-guyra/

 

[bellenuit]

I may have posted this TED talk elsewhere, but it gives an intriguing insight into the mind as it begins to shut down following a stroke. In this case it happened to a brain scientist and her experience gives perhaps an explanation of things like near death experiences and dreams. It certainly could be an explanation for many seemingly mysterious experiences that people have.

Jill Bolte Taylor: My stroke of insight

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight

 

[Value Collector]

Yes, not dissimilar to the sense one has when emerging from a dream when the dream seems totally real.

Yes, i catch myself in that state sometimes, as I lay in bed before I got to sleep, I often run over numbers and do calculations relating to investment ideas i have had, sometimes Even though I think I am awake, My thought process moves from rational calculations into the weird and wonderful dream world, I often catch this happening and wake up and giggle at the silly direction my brain went.

 

[Julia]

Indeed, but there is also rejection bias in which one rejects all evidence of something that they don't personally believe in. There is plenty of that going around as well.

Sure.

 

[Value Collector]

I suppose VC is would say that my mother was on drugs when she saw my dead neighbor, but I can assure him that is not the case.

I wouldn't have said your mother was on drugs, but it would have been interesting to interview her right after the vision, find out what she saw, have her explain it, and then interview her after she found out what happened, normally in situations like this the story grows, and all sorts of details are added to the vision retelling later.

Stuff like déjà vu, also gets people thinking they can see into the future, even though déjà vu, is getting to be an understood brain short circuit, it doesn't stop people thinking they can see visions.

 

[Value Collector]

Indeed, but there is also rejection bias in which one rejects all evidence of something that they don't personally believe in. There is plenty of that going around as well.

You actually have to present evidence before I can reject it, anecdotal stories are not evidence. i can demonstrate that fact by asking you why you don't believe in all the other unproven anecdotal stories which you don't have a pre existing notion of.

Eg. Big foot, why don't you just believe every story ever told of big foot, the people making those claims will tell they are honest, not drug takers and actually believe they saw a big foot, ( or insert Loch Ness monster, ufo's, angels etc etc)

Things that are asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

I am not standing here saying "No evidence will convince me" I am saying " I want to be convinced by evidence."

I am a sceptic, not a cynic, I have no sacred beliefs, I am willing to change my world view and discard even my most cherished belief, as long as I can be convinced by real evidence.

 

[Value Collector]

Here is a picture of what cameras can sometimes do in low light conditions, it's not the actual photo, but the same affect that happened in the family photo taken after my partners cousins funeral, they jumped to the conclusion that it was the dead cousins presence that made the photo look like it was snowing.

however, as it turns out it is just a very common problem in low light conditions, still nothing can convince some of the family that its not supernatural.

If you google orbs, there is actually a whole sub group of ghost and paranormal believers that believe this is supernatural and the result of spirits, even though the science behind it is very well understood, and the effect can be replicated by adjusting settings on most cameras.

 

[herzy]

I agree, I'm a bit dubious of a 'rejection bias' idea to justify faith in anecdotes: the whole principle of science/emperialism is that we SHOULD reject ideas until we're provided sufficient proof.

A suggestion that we should lower this standard to allow for some leeway/faith is to depart from rationality and delve into blind faith.

I also agree with VC that memories are extremely malleable. What may have started out with your mother having a vague sense of unease (or stronger) from a half-remembered dream, could easily become a genuinely held belief of a clear premonition later on.

This problem has been explored in depth in the courts, due to the (lack of) reliability of witnesses - it's been shown that memories are extremely influenced by subsequent events (such as news reports, subsequent evidence coming to light, etc), despite these witnesses being 100% certain that their memory is accurate.

 

[SirRumpole]

I wouldn't have said your mother was on drugs, but it would have been interesting to interview her right after the vision, find out what she saw, have her explain it, and then interview her after she found out what happened, normally in situations like this the story grows, and all sorts of details are added to the vision retelling later.

Unfortunately it's too late now to interview my mother, but I agree we can't take things on face value.

I while ago I had a strange experience. A buzzing noise was coming seemingly from the roof of my house. Then it turned into a rattling as though the nails in my tin roof were being shaken off. The noise was so loud I thought the house was coming apart. I had to go to work, but I asked told my neighbor about it (not the one who died), and his son came over while I was at work and he heard it too.

When I got home from work, it was still going, and was coming from all over the house. If I put a hand on the wall, I could feel it vibrating. After going around the house feeling the walls, I could tell the noise was stronger in the bathroom. A few minutes later I found the source. A battery powered shaver which was sitting on a plastic tray on a handrail was sending a vibration up the walls into the roof. Turn razor off, no noise, problem solved.

If the razor's battery ran down while I was at work, I never would have found the source and may have thought I was haunted. I think there are a lot of low frequency sound sources from electrical equipment like refrigerators that in the right conditions can set up resonant vibrations in houses and can sound like moaning etc. Of course a lot of stuff can't be explained by this, but the mundane explanations should be eliminated before we go further.

 

[SirRumpole]

Eg. Big foot, why don't you just believe every story ever told of big foot, the people making those claims will tell they are honest, not drug takers and actually believe they saw a big foot, ( or insert Loch Ness monster, ufo's, angels etc etc)

There is always going to be a problem with transient phenomena like the examples you quoted. Unless they co-operate and hang around long enough to be investigated all we have is anecdotal testimony.

That doesn't mean that anecdotal evidence should be discounted. If you weren't there you simply can't say whether people are mistaken or not. While loonies, hoaxers, lonely people wanting attention will always be around, the social consequences of reporting something unusual usually discourages people from talking about such things, unless they have a real conviction for doing so.

 

[Value Collector]

Here is a good explanation of the most likely cause a déjà vu. We have all had it, for a moment we have all thought we had experienced this situation before in a vision, but no, its just our brain fooling us again.

its actually a really informative video, it only goes for 6mins, I think you guys will really get something out of it.

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CSf8i8bHIns[/video]

 

[Value Collector]

There is always going to be a problem with transient phenomena like the examples you quoted. Unless they co-operate and hang around long enough to be investigated all we have is anecdotal testimony.

Yes, but with 50,000,000 people dying each year, wouldn't we have a lot more examples to work with, wouldn't with such large volumes of spirits getting around we should have testable data regularly.

What about all the examples of people who have said they will come back if there is an after life, Harry Houdini the famous magician and less famous sceptic and buster of psychics promised when he died, no matter what the cost to his immortal soul, he would come back and let us know, An annual seance has be held by his family and friends for the last 70 years, he has never showed.

Also, is it all 10,000,000 species of animals that have after lives, or just humans? What about chimps?

And why is that these things mostly happen at night when we are close to sleep in the dark, when we are so close to dream state. And why have i not been visited?