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Tink said:
Not as many as the atheists, like I said, hysteria.


“The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
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As VC summed up how many of these were in the name of atheism? Most occurred by people who just happened to be a non believer, if you wanted to go down this road then does that mean that every single murder committed by someone who just happens to be christian is a murder in the name of religion? Because I certainly don't think they are. Timothy McVeigh happened to be a catholic but didn't commit the bombing for religious reason but it can be argued that Anders Behring Breivik did when he committed the mass murder in Norway.
 
The difficulty with this discussion is that logic is being offered to people devoted to their religious beliefs.
There is clearly a disconnect right there.
 
trainspotter said:
Sorry Tink ... Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin were atheists. Ethnic cleansing on a massive scale by despots and megalomaniacs which were rejected by the rest of civilisation (world)

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image." Genesis 9:6

Not sure if "Killing in the name of God" has the right "ring" to it ?
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Actually Hitler was a roman catholic, and his killing was down a religious line, He targeted Jews, who just happened to be a group subject to a lot of catholic hatred. And in his book mein kampf he said he is doing gods work, and his soldiers wore the slogan of "god with us" on their uniforms.

the Catholic church also never said a word against Hitler, though the apologised in recent times for that.

So unless Tink wants to accept Hitler as one of hers, don't go about pushing nonsense claims about murderous mad men onto atheism.
 
Here is a very thought provoking video that will amaze and disturb you. Neil Degrasse Tyson presents what he sees as the most astounding fact about humans followed by the most disturbing thought.

I love Neil's enthusiasm and wonder for science,

 
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Julia said:
The difficulty with this discussion is that logic is being offered to people devoted to their religious beliefs.
There is clearly a disconnect right there.
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And pavlogic is being returned to us in an abundance of biblical proportions.

Another disconnect right there.
 
overhang said:
As VC summed up how many of these were in the name of atheism? Most occurred by people who just happened to be a non believer, if you wanted to go down this road then does that mean that every single murder committed by someone who just happens to be christian is a murder in the name of religion?
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Or equally that, because so many of the priests who so hideously abused little children were Catholic, they did it in the name of Catholicism.
 
This may be news to some (not all) posters, but a fact is a fact and an opinion is an opinion. Whilst opinions can often be seen to differ, facts always concur!

Also it seems we have a gifted mystic in our presence! A necromancer of such potency as to be able to discern the intent of the long deceased.(Here I was thinking that certain posters didn't believe in God and "paranormal/supernatural" phenomena!).

Presuming to know the mind of Isaac Newton and other mystics simply isn't enough for some religious zealots, they claim to also know the mind of Adolf Hitler!

Some(not all) atheists doth post overmuch methinks!

P.S. When one has lost a Catholic grandparent (whom happened to fall under Hitler's revised Jew criteria ), then maybe one can claim to know a little about Adolph Hitler and what actually happened during those terrible times!
Likewise, if one cannot demonstrate a working understanding of alchemy, chemistry, astrology, astronomy, calculus,the laws of motion and the connections between such concepts, then one cannot rightly claim to know the mind of Isaac Newton!
 
Value Collector said:
Actually Hitler was a roman catholic, and his killing was down a religious line, He targeted Jews, who just happened to be a group subject to a lot of catholic hatred. And in his book mein kampf he said he is doing gods work, and his soldiers wore the slogan of "god with us" on their uniforms.

the Catholic church also never said a word against Hitler, though the apologised in recent times for that.

So unless Tink wants to accept Hitler as one of hers, don't go about pushing nonsense claims about murderous mad men onto atheism.
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Errmmmm ... not quite old chum .....

Hitler repeatedly stated that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science.[10] In his semi-autobiographical Mein Kampf, he makes religious allusions, but declares himself neutral in sectarian matters and supportive of the separation between church and state, while criticising political Catholicism. He presented a nihilistic, Social Darwinist vision, in which the universe is ordered around principles of struggle between weak and strong, rather than on conventional Christian notions.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

I was of the understanding he was using this as a "cover" as 3 million Germans considered themselves as Catholics and only 5% declared themselves as atheists? Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace who supported his campaign to eradicate the Jewish population as they were seen as inferior to Aryan Christians.

Then again I could be mistaken as you VC seem to hold all the cards on pushing nonsense.
 
cynic said:
Presuming to know the mind of Isaac Newton and other mystics simply isn't enough for some religious zealots, they claim to also know the mind of Adolf Hitler!

!
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When have I claimed to know the mind of Isaac newton? please provide a reference, I believe it was you that was claiming he only made his discoveries because he was religious, I don't believe I claimed to know why he made his discoveries, that was all you

I wonder why there is no comment from you as to Tinks claims about genocide loving atheist leaders, you only pick hitler out of the bunch.

The three things that I said about hitler, ie 1, he was a roman catholic, 2, he wrote in mein kampf he was doing gods work and 3, german soldiers had "god with us" on their uniform are not opinions I hold, they are facts.

Even if hitler wasn't religious, the authoritarian nazi party and the communist parties tink mentioned were state religions in their own right, a more sceptical approach by society would have prevented both things.
 
trainspotter said:
Errmmmm ... not quite old chum .....



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

I was of the understanding he was using this as a "cover" as 3 million Germans considered themselves as Catholics and only 5% declared themselves as atheists? Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace who supported his campaign to eradicate the Jewish population as they were seen as inferior to Aryan Christians.

Then again I could be mistaken as you VC seem to hold all the cards on pushing nonsense.
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Lets say your right and he wasn't catholic ( even though he was baptised )

His system was based on leader worship, which is a religion in itself. And even if that wasn't the case, as you quote said, his system was based on "social darwinisn" which is not atheism.

Atheism is one opinion on one topic, If you don't believe a god exists your an atheist, every thing else is something else.

Atheism is not social darwism.
Atheism is not communism or nazism
Atheism is not a system of leader worship.
 
Because I am of the opinion,
that Hitler-bashing does not belong in this thread,
I was wanting to start a separate thread on Hitler.

But I came unstuck immediately.
What would I use as a title?

Was Hitler a Catholic?
Hitler's first Big Mistake?
Hitler and Mussolini?

Borrowing from Spike Milligan;
"Hitler, and my part in his downfall"?

Something equally controversial or topical!?

Any ideas?
 
Value Collector said:
When have I claimed to know the mind of Isaac newton? please provide a reference, I believe it was you that was claiming he only made his discoveries because he was religious, I don't believe I claimed to know why he made his discoveries, that was all you
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It would seem that bigotry and hypocrisy might be correlated!
I've taken the liberty of bolding a section of one of your posts to another thread:
Value Collector said:
Well he is obviously not taking literal interpretation of the Qur'an, many would disagree with him. Just like many Christians would disagree with pav and CBC that atheists will go to heaven. There are as many opinion as there are religious people.

!

There are some specific things that Newton gave god credit for that have since been proven, for example his calculations were not perfect as to the movements of the planets, so based on his calculations after a number of the planets orbits would have changed and been thrown out of balance. He assumed god stepped in to fix it every few hundred years, however modern calculations show they are kept in balance by the planets gravitational pull on each other. So that a big god gapped filled.
.

Astrology is crazy, so was his passion for alchemy. Hence we accept his discoveries about gravity, calculus, motion and astronomy and telescopes. But we don't accept his ideas about alchemy, astrology or gods



What do you mean by "alien belief systems"
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I hope that you now recognise the wisdom contained in my admonition to the effect that those unwilling to receive answers shouldn't be asking questions!


Value Collector said:
I wonder why there is no comment from you as to Tinks claims about genocide loving atheist leaders, you only pick hitler out of the bunch.
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Wonder all you like!
Value Collector said:
The three things that I said about hitler, ie 1, he was a roman catholic, 2, he wrote in mein kampf he was doing gods work and 3, german soldiers had "god with us" on their uniform are not opinions I hold, they are facts.

Even if hitler wasn't religious, the authoritarian nazi party and the communist parties tink mentioned were state religions in their own right, a more sceptical approach by society would have prevented both things.
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Well that sure is nice to know! However, it's not going to bring my grandfather back from the dead now is it?!

Do not presume to be qualified to lecture me on Nazism!!!
 
burglar said:
Because I am of the opinion,
that Hitler-bashing does not belong in this thread,
I was wanting to start a separate thread on Hitler.

But I came unstuck immediately.
What would I use as a title?

Was Hitler a Catholic?
Hitler's first Big Mistake?
Hitler and Mussolini?

Borrowing from Spike Milligan;
"Hitler, and my part in his downfall"?

Something equally controversial or topical!?

Any ideas?
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Actually, I think historical dictators do offer some valuable examples of the dangers posed by the arrogant presumption of moral supremacy. Claims to intellectual and moral superiority can be seen to have permeated this thread since conference of its title.
 
rumpole said:
Atheism has a lot to do with the cultural revolution in China and the hideous North Korean regime.

Evil regimes don't like competition for superiority from religions and will destroy them when possible.
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Yes, evil regimes will try and destroy anything that opposes or could oppose them. If there were a secular atheist organisation that had the same influence as the Catholic Church or other Christian churches, they would equally have been opposed by Mao or the North Koreans. Atheism is a statement about belief in the existence of a god or gods. Nothing more. There is no text or dogma to be followed. However, contrast that with some of the bible passages quoted in my previous post. And also some of those of Hitler. A direct encouragement to kill and eliminate those of a different sect/culture/religion.
 
bellenuit said:
Yes, evil regimes will try and destroy anything that opposes or could oppose them. If there were a secular atheist organisation that had the same influence as the Catholic Church or other Christian churches, they would equally have been opposed by Mao or the North Koreans. Atheism is a statement about belief in the existence of a god or gods. Nothing more. There is no text or dogma to be followed. However, contrast that with some of the bible passages quoted in my previous post. And also some of those of Hitler. A direct encouragement to kill and eliminate those of a different sect/culture/religion.
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Am I to understand that the presiding communist governments in these evil regimes cannot be recognised as atheist organisations?
 
cynic said:
1, I hope that you now recognise the wisdom contained in my admonition to the effect that those unwilling to receive answers shouldn't be asking questions!

!
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1, Your nonsensical replies continue, firstly i am not claiming to know newtons mind, he wrote down those things, he admitted that based on his calculations the planets orbit would not be stable over hundreds of years, he claimed a god must step in and make adjustments,

Let me say again, i didnt say this, he did in his own writings, just as i am not claiming to know hitlers mind, i am going of his own writings.
 
Value Collector said:
1, Your nonsensical replies continue, firstly i am not claiming to know newtons mind, he wrote down those things, he admitted that based on his calculations the planets orbit would not be stable over hundreds of years, he claimed a god must step in and make adjustments,

Let me say again, i didnt say this, he did in his own writings, just as i am not claiming to know hitlers mind, i am going of his own writings.
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As you opine from others' writings I opine from yours!

Again I have taken the liberty of bolding a portion of your post from another thread:
Value Collector said:
.

I am not defining theist ideas, i am commenting on the ideas that have been presented to me, you then try to play down those ideas, and install your own, which is taking away from the fact that millions believe those ideas, so it is you who is trying to prune.


.

Your three questions were poised in a way that sounded like you were suggesting Isaac would be in heaven, i simply said he wouldn't according to Muslims.



Not just benefits, i asked you to provide examples of three benefits the couldn't be achieved in other ways. Isaac newtons discoveries did not rely on religion, either way those facts would have been discovered, and if the church's hadn't shutdown guys like Galileo they may have been discovered earlier.
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That's strike two by my reckoning!
Would you care to try for a third?
 
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