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Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

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wayneL said:
So it's my way of claiming, owning and defending that, because it's damn well worth defending... from without AND within.
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Defending against what? the alternatives are just not that appealing, with compulsory 2 party preferred voting a nutter like Trump or some kind of fundamentalist can never win here, in our society an Erdoğan or Hanson can never rise to any major position of power, the majority of us is just not that stupid.

No vigilance or defending required.
 
rederob said:
This, from Chaplin's movie, is one of the best speeches in cinema - inspirational.
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"We think too much and feel too little."


Piffft another socialist left wing greens Marxist destroying our culture ............ :roflmao::roflmao::)
 
IFocus said:
Piffft another socialist left wing greens Marxist destroying our culture ............ :roflmao::roflmao::)
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"... then in the name of democracy let us use that power, let us all unite, let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that will give you the future and old age a security by the promise if these things ... soldiers in the name of democracy, let us all unite."

Some people cannot but help create, then realise, their own delusions.
Others are left to deal with the aftermath.
 
IFocus said:
"We think too much and feel too little."


Piffft another socialist left wing greens Marxist destroying our culture ............ :roflmao::roflmao::)
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Well he was based in fantasy.

.
rederob said:
"... then in the name of democracy let us use that power, let us all unite, let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that will give you the future and old age a security by the promise if these things ... soldiers in the name of democracy, let us all unite."

Some people cannot but help create, then realise, their own delusions.
Others are left to deal with the aftermath.
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Lets all get pet lamas as well:rolleyes:

Speeches are great. Do fck all though. And filled with fantasy idealism.
It was the action and sacrifice of millions of men that actually provided the solution.

It would be nice if the world all acted in such a manner. But lets be real here.
Thats a fantasy outcome at this stage.

All the guys that fought against Isis were the ones that gave freedom. And that was against a force that would stop at nothing to get what they want.

But keep pretending speeches like this changed the world. Not the men who are tasked with the will and the action to carry out what needs to be done.
 
moXJO said:
Well he was based in fantasy.
Lets all get pet lamas as well:rolleyes:
Speeches are great. Do fck all though. And filled with fantasy idealism.
It was the action and sacrifice of millions of men that actually provided the solution.
It would be nice if the world all acted in such a manner. But lets be real here.
Thats a fantasy outcome at this stage.
All the guys that fought against Isis were the ones that gave freedom. And that was against a force that would stop at nothing to get what they want.
But keep pretending speeches like this changed the world. Not the men who are tasked with the will and the action to carry out what needs to be done.
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Learn to read and understand what was written.
Are you related to Wayne?
 
moXJO said:
Learn to discuss a topic in its entirety instead of short meaningless jabs and sjw pushing dribble.
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Your commentary completely missed all the points made.
And whatever an sjw is relevant only to you.
Chaplin was speaking to his soldiers, imploring them to fight for democracy.
My remarks on that speech addressed those who are delusional - as Chaplin was mocking Hitler - and I clearly stated "Others are left to deal with the aftermath."
Your rant made a meal of this latter point.
 
rederob said:
I linked to it earlier in the thread, but you run off your keyboard in the usual clueless manner.
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Let me get that out of video for you.
I'm sorry, but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible. Jew - Gentile - Black Man, White. We all want to help one another, human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness. Not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another. And this world has room for everyone, and the good Earth is rich can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has posioned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives us abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynincal. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much, and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More that cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities life will be violent, and all will be lost. The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men - cries out for universal brotherhood - for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world - millions of despairing men, women, and little children - victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people. To those who can hear me, I say - do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed - the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish. ... Soldiers! don't give yourselves to brutes - men who despise you - enslave you - who regiment your lives - tell you what to do - what to think and what to feel! Who drill you - diet you - treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men - machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts! You don't hate! Only the unloved hate - the unloved and the unnatural! Soldiers! Don't fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! In the 17th Chapter of St Luke it is written: "the Kingdom of God is within man" - not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people have the power - the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure. Then - in the name of democracy - let us use that power - let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world - a decent world that will give men a chance to work - that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfil that promise. They never will! Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people! Now let us fight to fulfil that promise! Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite
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This is the speech...
A great speech.
Idealistic BS though, as they often are.
 
moXJO said:
This is the speech...
A great speech.
Idealistic BS though, as they often are.
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Chaplin implored soldiers to fight for democracy.
moXJO said:
It was the action and sacrifice of millions of men that actually provided the solution.
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"...and so long as men die, liberty will never perish."
You simply cannot accept what you stated was in fact what his speech was about.
 
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rederob said:
Chaplin implored soldiers to fight for democracy.
You simply cannot accept what you stated was in fact what his speech was about.
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The first part and the part you quoted, yes I can.
It will never happen.

Imo while he seems to be talking to soldiers to fight for liberty, I took it as fighting for liberty and not in the militaristic sense.
Eg:
And so long as men die, liberty will never perish. ... Soldiers! don't give yourselves to brutes - men who despise you - enslave you - who regiment your lives - tell you what to do - what to think and what to feel! Who drill you - diet you - treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men - machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts! You don't hate! Only the unloved hate - the unloved and the unnatural! Soldiers! Don't fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! In the 17th Chapter of St Luke it is written: "the Kingdom of God is within man" - not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people have the power - the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.
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Had double meaning. One that had to be used for the times (war against nazis) and the greater meaning of not killing your fellow man but fighting for freedom of the people from those that are in control. (I'm not up to speed on Chaplin history though). And if we look at it as if it talks directly to the soldiers, its hypocrisy.

But it is a great way to get people roused enough to go die for a cause. Even if misused. In the end Germany ended up in slavery.
The truth is; freedom and democracy is for the victorious.

Great speech though.
 
Speechs don't do anything ?
Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Trump., Mao ?

The point of a powerful, passionate speech is to move people. To make them want to follow your lead. To bring into reality the world you are envisioning.

It can be noble or nasty. Cooperative or despotic. But words are weapons. Why else did the forces behind the Christchurch murderer enable a Manifesto to be written and widely publicised ?
 
basilio said:
Speechs don't do anything ?
Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Trump., Mao ?

The point of a powerful, passionate speech is to move people. To make them want to follow your lead. To bring into reality the world you are envisioning.

It can be noble or nasty. Cooperative or despotic. But words are weapons. Why else did the forces behind the Christchurch murderer enable a Manifesto to be written and widely publicised ?
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Theres bringing into reality things that can be done.

Then the fantasy type bs they sell to you to risk your life for. I should have been more clear. Unicorns and rainbow speeches are great as an idea. Feel inspirational. End up dead in the water generally.
They are used after the fact as well. Decision is already made, now lets throw some feelgood on top.

Almost art.
But reality in most situations is that its never going to be like that.
 
In my view MoXjo you undervalue the effect of powerful speakers and ideas. Churchills' speeches saying England would fight till the end, on the beaches ect were key elements in keeping support for a war that seemed lost.

Roosevelt fireside chats during the Depression were ongoing efforts to reassure a nation that was seeing it's whole future disappearing in bankruptcy and unemployment.

Hitlers speeches were epic. They were crafted and polished to bring a nation on the road to a 1000 year Reich.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/second-world-war/churchills-greatest-speeches/
 
basilio said:
Speechs don't do anything ?
Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Trump., Mao ?
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Don't forget Obama....

There has to be will of action both from those making it and their supporters.

But you are right words do have power.
On the masses that are already sold on the idea. In fact I now believe speech is too powerful and should be banned. You are exactly correct.

Speech is too powerful and dangerous. Lets ban speech deemed too powerful.
 
I'm going to be AWOL for a while gents. Possibly an upcoming bereavement so don't feel much like arguing.

Hasta la vista.
 
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