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Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

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explod said:
"Imagine, with John Lennon, a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Indian partition, no Israeli/Palestinian wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no persecution of Jews as 'Christ-killers, no Northern Ireland 'troubles', no 'honor killings', no shiny-suited bouffant-haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money ('God wants you to give till it hurts'). Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing an inch of it..."

from p.24 The God Delusion, Dawkins 2006.
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This is merely further evidence of how deluded the author of that garbage article, truly is.
If one were to examine the atrocities of this past century, perform the death tally honestly, one would see that the element common to grand scale human tragedies is typically humans engaged in the zealous pursuit of unrealistic ideals. The "lofty ideal" simply serves as the "infallible" excuse for inhumane behaviour. Whether or not a deity belief features within that "ideal", is more incidental than it is causative.
And my plod words, imagine free education (teacher training), equal for all and if you want to be a soldier you have to pay to be trained and attend war to kill. Our guvmint got it the wrong way hey.
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Imagine applying the same principle to other forces, such as our police force! How do you think that will work out for society?
Well worth thinking about.... real freedom and democracy.
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Perhaps some more thinking on it, by your good self would prove beneficial. Others can already recognise that logic has long since departed the theatre of such ruminations.
God does your thinking for you. An atheist thinks for itself.
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This sounds suspiciously like an anti-theist's mantra. And as usual, such zealous pronouncements are typified by their departure from rationality.

Think upon this! :-

Of Richard Dawkins or Isaac Newton, which is/was the greater thinker?
 
Isaac Newton was good at maths and into physics which has little to do with philosophical clear thinking.

The idea of a God clouds thinking which is why the powers that be created and push that. ie., the Witch Doctor over the tribe for the Chief.

Armies (for killing) and Police (for peacekeeping) have very different roles.

"This sounds suspiciously like an anti-theist's mantra. And as usual, such zealous pronouncements are typified by their departure from rationality." You are certainly lost ole Pal
 
explod said:
Isaac Newton was good at maths and into physics which has little to do with philosophical clear thinking.
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On the contrary, it has much to do with "philosophical clear thinking"!
Anyhow, what exactly are you trying to say here? Was Newton a greater thinker than Dawkins, or wasn't he?
The idea of a God clouds thinking which is why the powers that be created and push that. ie., the Witch Doctor over the tribe for the Chief.
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What about the pioneers of science, i.e. Newton, Copernicus etc., was their thinking clouded by their ideas of a God?
Perhaps, you might benefit from doing some of your own thinking, instead of relying on the likes of Dawkins, to do it all for you.
Armies (for killing) and Police (for peacekeeping) have very different roles.
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Whom does one turn to, when someone threatens to invade one's residence? Now, whom does one turn to, when someone threatens to invade one's country?
"This sounds suspiciously like an anti-theist's mantra. And as usual, such zealous pronouncements are typified by their departure from rationality." You are certainly lost ole Pal
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Well, given that this comment issues from a self confessed Dawkins admirer, I consider that to be very high praise indeed!
 
cynic said:
On the contrary, it has much to do with "philosophical clear thinking"!
Anyhow, what exactly are you trying to say here? Was Newton a greater thinker than Dawkins, or wasn't he?

What about the pioneers of science, i.e. Newton, Copernicus etc., was their thinking clouded by their ideas of a God?
Perhaps, you might benefit from doing some of your own thinking, instead of relying on the likes of Dawkins, to do it all for you.

Whom does one turn to, when someone threatens to invade one's residence? Now, whom does one turn to, when someone threatens to invade one's country?

Well, given that this comment issues from a self confessed Dawkins admirer, I consider that to be very high praise indeed!
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Out of curiosity I just had a look at Newton. He has some fairly refined views, and unusual views too, about religion.

Just goes to show that what some regard as nonsense can be taken quite seriously by other people. So the discussion keeps on rolling back and forth, on and on.
 
grah33 said:
Out of curiosity I just had a look at Newton. He has some fairly refined views, and unusual views too, about religion.

Just goes to show that what some regard as nonsense can be taken quite seriously by other people. So the discussion keeps on rolling back and forth, on and on.
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I find it somewhat amusing, that antitheists are often witnessed citing subscription to science as justification for their expressed contempt for theism.
One only has to ask, how much of our science would exist today, sans the discoveries of the following theist:
https://www.quotesaga.com/quote/984
 
cynic said:
I find it somewhat amusing, that antitheists are often witnessed citing subscription to science as justification for their expressed contempt for theism.
One only has to ask, how much of our science would exist today, sans the discoveries of the following theist:
https://www.quotesaga.com/quote/984
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Looks like Newton saw the physics of the universe and its apparent design coming together with the biblical revelation and the oracles of the prophets (prophecy was important to him), for a complete understanding of the world.

Although he did have an usual Christian belief – Christ is the Messiah but not God. From what I read this man was more religious than scientific...
 
grah33 said:
... From what I read this man was more religious than scientific...
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It is interesting that you view it that way.

I have yet to identify so much as one single distinction, separating scientific practice from religious observance.
 
grah33 said:
Out of curiosity I just had a look at Newton. He has some fairly refined views, and unusual views too, about religion.

Just goes to show that what some regard as nonsense can be taken quite seriously by other people. So the discussion keeps on rolling back and forth, on and on.
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His Ideas on religion are as bogus as his ideas on alchemy.
 
grah33 said:
I'm somewhat apprehensive about letting my mind go...In those moments when I'm half asleep my defenses are down, and I have felt strange darkness …
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Same. If complete liberation from the egoic mind was not terrifying, everyone would do it. That's the barrier. Our choice is to live as slaves to our mind (never ending struggle, striving, desires and fears), or let go the mind and live in peace. The latter has a big price. That's what they say anyway... I'm not speaking from experience now.
 
Gringotts Bank said:
Same. If complete liberation from the egoic mind was not terrifying, everyone would do it. That's the barrier. Our choice is to live as slaves to our mind (never ending struggle, striving, desires and fears), or let go the mind and live in peace. The latter has a big price. That's what they say anyway... I'm not speaking from experience now.
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You're touching on some ideas that mean something to me , but obviously getting there a different way. But can letting the mind go really achieve this? For example, if someone practices this, will he find it easier to forgive someone who murders their only child, or steals their money? Will he experience greater control when consuming pleasurable food (a common problem for many)? Can they lose weight easily enough without so much inner struggle? Do they feel jealous of people?
 
grah33 said:
You're touching on some ideas that mean something to me , but obviously getting there a different way. But can letting the mind go really achieve this? For example, if someone practices this, will he find it easier to forgive someone who murders their only child, or steals their money? Will he experience greater control when consuming pleasurable food (a common problem for many)? Can they lose weight easily enough without so much inner struggle? Do they feel jealous of people?
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I understand all the logic in it, but it's worth nothing if I'm not living it. Plenty of quality answers here ... https://www.holybooks.com/i-am-that-nisargadatta-maharaj/
 
As was mentioned in the Trump thread -

"In America, we know that faith and family, not government and bureaucracy, are the center of American life.
Our motto is "in God we trust."

Ronald Reagan said the same,

If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, we will be a nation gone under.

---

Faith, Family, Truth and Freedom.
 
Gringotts Bank said:
I understand all the logic in it, but it's worth nothing if I'm not living it. Plenty of quality answers here ... https://www.holybooks.com/i-am-that-nisargadatta-maharaj/
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I'll have to take a look when I get some time. Although for many theists letting go of the mind tends to be a forbidden thing. We must stay in control of ourselves at all times. Our peace is partly derived from rejecting our selfish inclinations, and helping when we see a need. It leaves us with a free feeling, and even joy (as described in NT). We rely on God's 'grace' to do this.
 
grah33 said:
I'll have to take a look when I get some time. Although for many theists letting go of the mind tends to be a forbidden thing. We must stay in control of ourselves at all times. Our peace is partly derived from rejecting our selfish inclinations, and helping when we see a need. It leaves us with a free feeling, and even joy (as described in NT). We rely on God's 'grace' to do this.
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The mind is the self - they are one and the same.

When you help someone (your example) and you feel freedom/joy as a result, it's because your mind will be silenced by the process. Any action which approximates love will have the same effect on the mind.

Given what you've said here, you probably won't like the book I recommended. But at its core, it is the same as Christian mysticism.

You know the darkness you feel when you start to let go of the mind? The darkness is the way the ego tricks you into avoiding falling into the Absolute (or what Christians would call God).

I'm not Christian, but I like to look at spirituality from multiple viewpoints. Bernadette Roberts was a Christian nun. If you're serious, you will be able to make sense of her work linked here, then match it with your personal experience of impending darkness and what I'm saying here. http://www.nonduality.com/berna.htm

Chapter 1 - "Roberts describes a quality of silence she had known on occasions, which was so total as to evoke fear, annihilation, point of no return".
 
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