Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

[cynic]

Should one believe if they saw Paul work those wonders or Jesus rise from the dead, or should they just pick another religion?

Some might challenge their claims by showing video clips of a stage magician emulating similar feats, and insisting that it was all trickery. Or others might simply impugn the cognitive factors of the ones claiming to have witnessed miraculous events.

To my understanding,the important thing for each person, is to seek out the truth for themselves, making their own determinations about how to live responsibly and accordingly, whilst allowing others the space to do likewise.

And for those having the startling experience, of having truth come crashing into their lives, before it was actually sought, similar sentiments apply. i.e. live according to that which is now known.

 

[SirRumpole]

while I also don't claim that they are false, I simply don't believe them

How to contradict yourself in one sentence.

 

[Value Collector]

How to contradict yourself in one sentence.

It’s actually not a contradiction at all if you take a moment to understand the position.

Saying I don’t believe something is not the same as claiming it’s false or saying that I know it’s false.

Eg. If you told me you had met an alien, I can be unconvinced so I don’t believe you have, but that is not a claim to know you are lying, or a claim to know that you haven’t

It’s just like I have described myself as an agnostic atheist, it’s I claim that I don’t believe, but also have no way of knowing for sure.

 

[grah33]

I did, for 2/3s of my life. Then I started to think critically about my experiences and beliefs and I realised it was all self delusion. The more I spoke with or read the writings of others who also believed they had been blessed by the Holy Spirit, I could also see that they were simply deluding themselves as well. Everything was filtered to confirm their belief. Something good happens, particularly in relation to health, and it was due to the Holy Spirit. But the preceding event that caused the health issue was somehow ignored. The more I observed them, the more gullible I realised them to be. A cloud that only vaguely resembles a cross was somehow a sign from God. Statues moved even though cameras showed they didn't and rational explanations of the occurrences were simply ignored and put down to "you must have faith to see it". I believe even one of your first posts on this thread related to some event in the Phillipines that was easily explicable with a modicum of science knowledge. And even one of the happenings in that video, the rainbow rising from the head of the statue, was quite obviously wrong. Even you acknowledged that "happening" was not important compared to the rest of the video, but it had to be pointed out to you before you acknowledged it.

Regards being deluded, yes there are many people who are deluded. If there are people who genuinely experience the Holy Spirit, would you not expect there to be other deluded people too? You would and there are, and I've seen just that so I know that is the case. Yes, it doesn't inspire anybody when we see that. People are people, and some people have this thing where they seem to erroneously take their thoughts to be coming from God etc. (Side comment: if one religion is the correct one, would you not expect there to still be many others? ). But then there are other people who aren't deluded. Some in particular (they're not rare) God acts through them that they may help people in some way (it can be powerful). One person that I know strikes me in particular. They might be what one would call “full of the Holy Spirit “. They seem to have a goodness and sanctity that I haven't seen in anyone else before. I think that leads to having more of the Holy Spirit.

Regards the clip, some good points. I mentioned it on an impulse which was not a smart idea. The rings and so on can't be observed in the clip so it's probably not that good a clip to bring up in the first place. From memory I also misunderstood you in the posts afterwards so that is why some of my responses don't seem to make proper sense. I have a memory of that happening and being surprised by my replies later on. I would like to be there to see what they saw and really see what they were cheering at. Regarding the rainbow, I didn't get your point on that. I never saw anything special about that.

I don't know whether you really have given it a go. It's a big thing to say that one has. There are many people who may even go church everyday in the morning, but they will never experience any divine action from the Spirit. That includes clergy. To follow Christ one must get rid of everything , and I mean everything that's incompatible (all little habits,ways of thinking etc , one of Christ's teachings...). We seldom meet someone that lives like this. Unless that happens, very little or nothing of God's presence/action may be experienced imv, or something in the beginning that may have brought the person to God). This is how it seems to happen and "letting go" is hard to do for most of us. “narrow is the way that leads to life and few there are that find it”. The commentary view on that verse is that hardly anyone fully experiences the divine life. Even the masses of daily church-goers have faults that they choose to continue in (they can't get graces). I believe though that we are always holding onto rubbish when we live like that.

 

[Wysiwyg]

The earliest writings we have about him date to 100 years after he died, anyone that has played Chinese whispers, or seen rumours spread knows it takes less than 5 minutes for stories passed by word of mouth to change, So everything that "Jesus" said or did in the bible is unlikely to represent actual happenings, he might not have even existed at all as represented in the bible.

There were high hopes the Shroud of Turin was the burial cloth of Jesus. Turned out to be carbon dated in the Middle Ages. Looks like King Arthur to me. The Roman Catholics treasure it and will claim it as the Jesus burial cloth. Perfect to keep the disciples believing.

 

[cynic]

There were high hopes the Shroud of Turin was the burial cloth of Jesus. Turned out to be carbon dated in the Middle Ages. Looks like King Arthur to me. The Roman Catholics treasure it and will claim it as the Jesus burial cloth. Perfect to keep the disciples believing.

Somewhat reminiscent of this excerpt from the gospel according to Baldrick

Makes for effective comedy to some, sacrilege to others.


Apparently there's quite a trade in false relics of another of Earth's deities:
https://www.elvis.com.au/presley/elvis-autographs.shtml

Which raises the question: Apart from the human capacity for mendacious acts, what do false relics actually prove?

Is the existence of Elvis Presley now in dispute?

And are we no longer able to appreciate the recorded music accredited to him?

 

[cynic]

Somewhat reminiscent of this excerpt from the gospel according to Baldrick

Makes for effective comedy to some, sacrilege to others.


Apparently there's quite a trade in false relics of another of Earth's deities:
https://www.elvis.com.au/presley/elvis-autographs.shtml

Which raises the question: Apart from the human capacity for mendacious acts, what do false relics actually prove?

Is the existence of Elvis Presley now in dispute?

And are we no longer able to appreciate the recorded music accredited to him?

 

[grah33]

Some might challenge their claims by showing video clips of a stage magician emulating similar feats, and insisting that it was all trickery. Or others might simply impugn the cognitive factors of the ones claiming to have witnessed miraculous events.

To my understanding,the important thing for each person, is to seek out the truth for themselves, making their own determinations about how to live responsibly and accordingly, whilst allowing others the space to do likewise.

And for those having the startling experience, of having truth come crashing into their lives, before it was actually sought, similar sentiments apply. i.e. live according to that which is now known.

You've expressed here what seems to be a belief system that subscribes to Judaism, or much of it anyway, with some personal flexibility. I'm surprised the posters here didn't really question you more as I was curious myself. As well as those beliefs you mentioned before, I'm guessing you are anticipating a Messiah right? If that is the case, I'd like to know a bit more about what kind of figure this might be in your eyes?

 

[cynic]

You've expressed here what seems to be a belief system that subscribes to Judaism, or much of it anyway, with some personal flexibility. I'm surprised the posters here didn't really question you more as I was curious myself. As well as those beliefs you mentioned before, I'm guessing you are anticipating a Messiah right? If that is the case, I'd like to know a bit more about what kind of figure this might be in your eyes?

One of the things I noticed when reading the Revelation according to John, was that of the events it foretold, some had previously occurred in Exodus. This suggested to me that there may exist longer term cycles of societal evolution, giving rise to repetitious manifestation of archetypal events/elements.

Consequently, I believe that messiahs will typically emerge (from time to time) from the human populace, in response to the evolutionary needs of society, offering insights which are in stark contrast to prevalent misconceptions.

Some might, with good reason, choose to believe that this man resembles a current day messiah of sorts:


Of course there are messiahs, and then there are Messiahs, with a capital "M". I pray that I never have to endure a period of history, where the straits are so dire, as to require the assistance of the latter type of Messiah.

 

[Tisme]

There were high hopes the Shroud of Turin was the burial cloth of Jesus. Turned out to be carbon dated in the Middle Ages. Looks like King Arthur to me. The Roman Catholics treasure it and will claim it as the Jesus burial cloth. Perfect to keep the disciples believing.

I think that's back on the don't know list. Someone used an image analyser to realise the image as a non organic one and the carbon test that put it in the 14th century has been debunked by a more recent test.

 

[Value Collector]

If there are people who genuinely experience the Holy Spirit,.

Wouldn't you have to prove the Holy Spirit exists before you can use it as an explanation for something?

I mean before we say "Aliens did that" we should probably supply evidence that aliens exist.

 

[cynic]

Wouldn't you have to prove the Holy Spirit exists before you can use it as an explanation for something?

I mean before we say "Aliens did that" we should probably supply evidence that aliens exist.

The same criticism, could be rightly applied to the hasty invocation, by scientists, of the unproven "dark matter" concept, as being the explanation for effects that would otherwise lie beyond the scope of contemporary scientific comprehension.

 

[noirua]

El Salvador - The Religion of the GIANT CARROTS and Mega-Churches:


Ben Zand spends time with Guatemala’s huge evangelical community. Visiting a Guatemalan million dollar mega-church, and meeting Cash Luna - one of the most famous pastors in Central and South America, and one of the wealthiest. Cash Luna runs Casa de Dios, one of the world’s biggest churches. Ben also meets Pastor Sanchez, from the town of Almolonga. Almolonga is famous for the story of transformation, where God blessed its giant carrots and vegetables, saving people from poverty. Both men claim they have the ability to heal, and that the story of Almolonga’s carrots is true - but is all as it seems?

 

[Value Collector]

The same criticism, could be rightly applied to the hasty invocation, by scientists, of the unproven "dark matter" concept, as being the explanation for effects that would otherwise lie beyond the scope of contemporary scientific comprehension.

Science is actively gathering evidence and promotes inquiry into the subject, I am un aware of any studies being conducted by the Vatican into the existence of the holy spirit, They simply want you to accept their word on faith.

So you example is not valid.

 

[SirRumpole]

Science is actively gathering evidence and promotes inquiry into the subject, I am un aware of any studies being conducted by the Vatican into the existence of the holy spirit, They simply want you to accept their word on faith.

What sort of evidence do you want ?

 

[cynic]

Science is actively gathering evidence and promotes inquiry into the subject, I am un aware of any studies being conducted by the Vatican into the existence of the holy spirit, They simply want you to accept their word on faith.

So you example is not valid.

The Vatican isn't the only theistic entity in existence.

The thing that makes the treatment of the "dark matter" concept analogous, is the presumption (by many scientists) to its existence, despite the absence of proof.

 

[SirRumpole]

The thing that makes the treatment of the "dark matter" concept analogous, is the presumption (by many scientists) to its existence, despite the absence of proof.

People keep talking of "the God of the gaps", dark matter seems to be one of these.

 

[Value Collector]

What sort of evidence do you want ?

What to you have?

Like anything there has to be a good reason for believing something, and if some one is going to proclaim that X is the cause of something, should should be able to have some solid reasons about why they think X exists.

The Vatican isn't the only theistic entity in existence.

Are any of them actually putting in effort to prove the holy spirits existence? No, they aren't otherwise they would constantly talk about faith.

The thing that makes the treatment of the "dark matter" concept analogous, is the presumption (by many scientists) to its existence, despite the absence of proof.

there is real evidence that Dark matter exists, nothing for the Holy Spirit though.

Cynic you constantly disbelieve scientific findings based on real evidence while easily accepting the totally baseless claims of supernatural things, it was a mistake for me to click the "show ignored content" button, So back to ignore for you, bye.

 

[Value Collector]

People keep talking of "the God of the gaps", dark matter seems to be one of these.

Except science is actively trying to understand and reduce the gaps, religion relies on the gaps, its doesn't want to fill them.

 

[SirRumpole]

Except science is actively trying to understand and reduce the gaps, religion relies on the gaps, its doesn't want to fill them.

Well, that's a fair point.

The Higg's boson was contentious untill it was actually found, but science may yet create an instrument that allows us to see our 'spiritual' bodies if they exist. Would you accept that at least as evidence of mind/body separation and therefore life after death ?