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Religion, Science, Scepticism, Philosophy and things metaphysical

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Value Collector said:
Religious preachers use Rat Cunning, to take advantage of those with faith and hope, and take their charity.
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You preaching to me? :D

I found myself in old surroundings the other week and lo and behold if I wasn't startled by a huge new building with expansive carpark and a cross crowning it. I was one of those 2000 plus auditorium seated evangelical christian rock setups run by the Baptist Church.

I think the protestants are on the march to Jesus in a big way.
 
cynic said:
Is somebody forcing your participation in this thread?!!
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No, I was talking about saying the lords prayer in parliament and Tink's opinion that her religion should be taught in schools.

She doesn't seem to get that forcing her religion into the public schools isn't "religious freedom", it's the opposite, it goes against peoples right to religious freedom.

I am 100% with people having a religion, and building churches, and praying etc etc, They just don't have the right to get public funding for any of it, or to force their brand of faith on the public schools or government.
 
Tisme said:
You preaching to me? :D

I found myself in old surroundings the other week and lo and behold if I wasn't startled by a huge new building with expansive carpark and a cross crowning it. I was one of those 2000 plus auditorium seated evangelical christian rock setups run by the Baptist Church.
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Such things make milking the sheep easier, they are the ones paying for it all, and as I said, its not real charity.
 
Tink said:
The Lord's Prayer in Parliament.

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy Name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

As I said, our preamble is

Almighty God.
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'And lead us not into temptation,'

The wording is due to be changed as it supposes god leads you into temptation and people ask not to be.

Possible new wording, 'And please lead us away from temptation'

Just one of hundreds of wrongly translated passages. The best translation was said to be by The Blessed Bede in the 13th century. It was destroyed after his death by unknown persons. Some are thought to have not approved that the peasants should understand it. It was a direct translation and not through other languages, and being a direct translation, showed Jesus never said 'I am the son of god' or 'my father in heaven' - that was made up by scribes translating to keep the peasants under the thumb.
 
I have already said our foundations are Christian.

New Year's Day (Anno Domini, the Year of Our Lord)

As well as the rest of the public holidays.
 
Value Collector said:
No, I was talking about saying the lords prayer in parliament and Tink's opinion that her religion should be taught in schools.

She doesn't seem to get that forcing her religion into the public schools isn't "religious freedom", it's the opposite, it goes against peoples right to religious freedom.

I am 100% with people having a religion, and building churches, and praying etc etc, They just don't have the right to get public funding for any of it, or to force their brand of faith on the public schools or government.
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I may not be on quite the same page of the hymn book here.

I presume you aren't talking about the observations of certain traditional practices that have flowed through to recent times from our society's Christian heritage.

I also presume you aren't talking about provision of public funding to private sector institutions, in recognition of their contribution to society via alleviatoin of the load placed upon their public equivalents, such as schools, hospitals, community welfare services etc.

As to religion being forced into schools, I cannot say that I have noticed anything other than things like that insidious "anti bullying" programme, which appeared to have been a poorly disguised attempt at indoctrination of preadolescent children into the exploration and acceptance of LGBT sexual themes.
 
cynic said:
I also presume you aren't talking about provision of public funding to private sector institutions, in recognition of their contribution to society via alleviatoin of the load placed upon their public equivalents, such as schools, hospitals, community welfare services etc.
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Important point. Why should public funds go to private schools ? Some may say it takes the load of public schools same as private hospitals taking load off the public system.

In my view the government contribution per student should be the same for public and private schools and let the parents pay extra for private schools if they wish.

As to religion being forced into schools, I cannot say that I have noticed anything other than things like that insidious "anti bullying" programme, which appeared to have been a poorly disguised attempt at indoctrination of preadolescent children into the exploration and acceptance of LGBT sexual themes.
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Fortunately some governments have seen the error of their ways and are abolishing this scheme and replacing it with ones with a more mainsteram focus.

However there was the school chaplain fiasco which was an attempt to get religion into schools. I think
this has now also disappeared.
 
Tink said:
I have already said our foundations are Christian.
.
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Yeah I know thats your go to answer, But you have never been able to find anything about christianity in the constitution, and no doubt you would be against a different brand of christian stuff being taught.

eg. you would be against Jehovah witnesses or Mormans taking over schools, you only want your specific Sub sect of your specific brand taught.

yet you fail to realise that just as you don't want other brands forced on you we don't want your brands forced on us.
 
SirRumpole said:
In my view the government contribution per student should be the same for public and private schools and let the parents pay extra for private schools if they wish.
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I guess it depends on what they are teaching, Tink probably loves the Idea of Catholic schools getting funding, but bristles at the idea of Muslim schools getting funding.

Its a hard question because a certain portion of religious schools might be quite crazy, and how do we know the kids are being taught properly.
 
bellenuit said:
A lot of the Old Testament is just a rehash of myths that had being part of other religions before that, that Christians then and now say were false religions.

To name a few:

The story of the Garden of Eden
Heaven and Hell
The virgin birth.
The Holy Trinity (God being in 3 parts)
The Flood (Noah)
Parts of the Book of Proverbs
Angels and Demons and their hierarchy.
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The simple reason my friends and acquaintances firmly believe is that they are convinced that they have encountered the power of the Holy Spirit, in its various forms. If that is true, then I would think that you would agree their religion is likely to be the correct one.


" ..My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith would not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's..." (NT, Corinthians)
This verse makes it clear that all discussions, debates and so on are inferior to experiences of God's power (which isn't restricted to just miracles).
 
cynic said:
The corroboration of some beliefs with earlier belief systems, might just as easily be celebrated, rather than condemned, for its offering of intercultural credence to those holding analogous beliefs.
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Except it wasn't corroboration, just the same stories with different characters and at different times. For example, the great flood.

So rather than confirming the validity of such stories, it just exposes the plagiarism of the authors and the lack of theistic authority to the writings.
 
grah33 said:
The simple reason my friends and acquaintances firmly believe is that they are convinced that they have encountered the power of the Holy Spirit, in its various forms. If that is true, then I would think that you would agree their religion is likely to be the correct one.
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But if they had been born in another religious culture they would equally think that their religion is likely to be the correct one.
 
SirRumpole said:
...
Fortunately some governments have seen the error of their ways and are abolishing this scheme and replacing it with ones with a more mainsteram focus.
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Actually I think they simply recognised that their attempt was premature, and that a thinner wedge was required at this juncture. Hence the advent of the "respectful relationships" curriculum, the content of which, based upon a brief perusal of certain guidance materials,appears to be founded upon the perception that perpetration of violence and discrimination, is the sole domain of the heterosexual male, with all other members of the community being the victims.
However there was the school chaplain fiasco which was an attempt to get religion into schools. I think
this has now also disappeared.
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That would surely depend, upon whether or not, injecting theistic religion was the agenda.
Do we still have hospital, prison and military chaplains?
 
cynic said:
appears to be founded upon the perception that perpetration of violence and discrimination, is the sole domain of the heterosexual male, with all other members of the community being the victims.
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Women especially adolescent girls can be even more bitchy and vicious than young males with a number of that cohort driven to suicide by bullying, cyber or otherwise.

That would surely depend, upon whether or not, injecting theistic religion was the agenda.
Do we still have hospital, prison and military chaplains?
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Prisoners and hospital patients don't get the opportunity to visit their own churches, and in the cases of Muslims imprisoned for jihad activities, visits from their clerics would be unwise.
 
bellenuit said:
But if they had been born in another religious culture they would equally think that their religion is likely to be the correct one.
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That observation could be rightly made of many cultures including our own!
Have you spotted areas in which yourself, or your friends, might themselves have become indoctrinated by contemporary Western customs and/or values?

A few topics that may merit consideration:

Pharmacology
Anti theism
Genetics
Environmentalism
Sociology

Have you noticed how our society is being bombarded with values pursuant to these ideologies and that a number of them have now been, to some extent, legally mandated.
 
bellenuit said:
But if they had been born in another religious culture they would equally think that their religion is likely to be the correct one.
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That's irrelevant. I would think that you would agree with my previous statement. Your position would be that we are deluded, which is interesting for someone like me (and my acquaintances ) to consider
 
bellenuit said:
Except it wasn't corroboration, just the same stories with different characters and at different times. For example, the great flood.

So rather than confirming the validity of such stories, it just exposes the plagiarism of the authors and the lack of theistic authority to the writings.
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This is a classic example of how differing sets of beliefs can give rise to alternate interpretations of the same data!
I can see evidence of corroboration of symbolically expressed themes, you can see plagiarism and falsehood.

It is truly amazing how incredibly alike we are!

Each of us has allowed our personal religious convictions to influence our interpretation of the evidence!
 
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