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luutzu said:
You sure you're just resting your eyes and not taking up drinking? Don't hit the bottle too hard, I don't blame you 'cause a long debate with VC could do that to a religious person :D
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I think it is because he has realised his big claims about Bible Prophecy can't be backed up, its quite common for christians to just believe their preachers when the preacher says the bible predicts this or that, so they go around making big claims, but then when some one says "Such as?", they find them selves holding an empty sack.
 
Value Collector said:
I think it is because he has realised his big claims about Bible Prophecy can't be backed up, its quite common for christians to just believe their preachers when the preacher says the bible predicts this or that, so they go around making big claims, but then when some one says "Such as?", they find them selves holding an empty sack.
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Of course the Bible's Prophecies can be backed up. It's in the Bible. Full stop :D
 
I really liked The Omen series. Little did I know Damien Thorn was actually a North Korean.
 
luutzu said:
Of course the Bible's Prophecies can be backed up. It's in the Bible. Full stop :D
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The funniest part is when they say the bible stories in the New Testament Prove the prophecies of the Old Testament,

Then when asked if its possible the authors of the New Testament had read the Old testament and simply written fan fiction stories fulfilling the prophecy, they manage to keep a straight face and say "No, thats not possible" hahaha.

I wonder if they believe Harry Potter is real, because the later books "fulfil prophecies" made in the earlier books.
 
bellenuit said:
Grah, to save you looking, these are the verses that supposedly foretold Alexander The Great and Antiochus.

In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me—to me, Daniel—after the one that appeared to me the first time. I saw in the vision, and it so happened while I was looking, that I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision that I was by the River Ulai. Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great. And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered. Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed” (Daniel 8:1-14).

After narrating what he saw in the vision, Daniel wondered what the dream meant. While in this state of contemplation, the angel Gabriel approached Daniel to explain the dream. Gabriel proceeded to offer an accurate interpretation of the events that Daniel saw:

The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. And the male goat is the kingdomof Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their fullness, a king shall arise, having fierce features, who understands sinister schemes. His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; he shall destroy fearfully, and shall prosper and thrive; he shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people. Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;and he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without human means.And the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true; therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future (Daniel 8:20-26).

http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=13&article=4224

This is a rebuttal of those prophesies....

https://infidels.org/library/modern/chris_sandoval/daniel.html
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I had a quick look (not much though, sore eyes). Seems the first link is a rebuttal to the rebuttal itself.

As you probably know, the book is mentioned all over the place and by historians well before the date the atheists have used. Daniel is also mentioned in other OT books. Christ also ascribed Himself to be one of the main characters in some of those future flashes that Daniel received. And even if you use their date (was it 100 bc or something like that?) , it still predicts in advance the coming of the Messiah (70 weeks of years , another nice little footnote in the Bible for that actually), and has some nice images of the Christian mystery b4 it even takes place (Christian perspective here, as Jews don't believe in Jesus).

I like the way it predicted the destruction of the sanctuary. This was the second temple, where the Jews made sin offerings for mankind and themselves. Some Jews and Christians might not like the fact that a famous mosque stands there now, but I actually think it works well for Christianity. If it were not there, the Jews would again be sacrificing for sins (side comment: they are seeking to build a temple for this ...). From a Christian perspective, it's not meant to be, since Christ is the sacrifice. So it was fitting that all sin sacrifices would stop after Christ died. And this idea - the need for a better and human sacrifice – is also laid out in the OT well before it happens (see the Suffering Servant oracles of Isaiah). Jesus ascribed Isaiah's verses about Himself. They are (to Christians anyway) a prophecy describing the suffering of a special person, suffering for everyone's sins. It's mystical and powerful.
 
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SirRumpole said:
I think we are in the realm of Nostradamus or Revelations, as in "the end of days". :cool:
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If Daniel predicted past empires so well, will his future predictions also come true? Many people watch the land of Israel, since all the oracles are supposed to happen there. After forming a state after 2000 years, they think now is the time to watch. They see the Jews returning as the beginning of a final phase in history. We'll see what happens.

Regarding prophecies, Christ was certain that all of them would be fulfilled.
 
grah33 said:
u got em now.
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No, where did you post the verses?

You made a specific claim eg. you said "you gotta deal with the fact that the history of several empires was accurately foretold by Daniel"

I asked you to provide the verse's where Daniel accurately foretold the history of several empires.

So far you have provided nothing but some unintelligible ramblings about your interpretation of unidentified parts of bible stories.

If Daniel predicted past empires so well, will his future predictions also come true?
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again, which verses were these predictions in?

and what exactly did they "predict so well"?
 
Value Collector said:
The funniest part is when they say the bible stories in the New Testament Prove the prophecies of the Old Testament,

Then when asked if its possible the authors of the New Testament had read the Old testament and simply written fan fiction stories fulfilling the prophecy, they manage to keep a straight face and say "No, thats not possible" hahaha.

I wonder if they believe Harry Potter is real, because the later books "fulfil prophecies" made in the earlier books.
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Some religious people wouldn't believe you if you tell them the Church banned certain (scientific) books or put under house arrest scientists who questioned the Bible's version of the rotation of the solar system. Serious. They think you're making it up to insult the Church and their religion.

Impossible to argue with religious beliefs. Which is fine and fair enough when it doesn't affect you personally but when it does, it's really messed up. There's just no way out, no reason or logic can change their decision. So you either have to accept what they say or go elsewhere.

Anyway, to hold some books as absolute truth... then force it on other people through your own beliefs as taught in the book. Imagine there's no religion ey.
 
I suppose we should first look at the limitations of the human brain. A calculator or computer can beat humans at most things. Does that mean that thinking is the only difference between us and animals as far as death is concerned - in the longer term that is. Few animals mourn that long whilst it can linger until life's end in humans.
 
noirua said:
I suppose we should first look at the limitations of the human brain. A calculator or computer can beat humans at most things. Does that mean that thinking is the only difference between us and animals as far as death is concerned - in the longer term that is. Few animals mourn that long whilst it can linger until life's end in humans.
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I think having conscious thought is a big determining factor on whether its ok treat other life forms in certain ways, I mean even a vegan is ok with biting into a living plant or bacteria, however animals etc have a much higher level of consciousness and ability to feel pain, fear, stress etc, so should be treated differently.
 
What they don't have is a sense of self.
We know what we are.
We know of a beginning middle and end.

A monkey doesn't know he is a monkey.
However Ducks know they are Ducks.
 
tech/a said:
What they don't have is a sense of self.
We know what we are.
We know of a beginning middle and end.

.
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Sense of self is not the only factor, eg if it could be proven that a dog had no sense of self, it still doesn't mean that its ok to torture it, because it still has the ability to feel pain, stress and fear etc.

I think there are animals across the whole spectrum of consciousness . Some animals would be no more than robots running software, however humans are obviously much higher on the spectrum of consciousness.

The other species of apes and potentially other animals are not to different from us (after all we are apes) in terms of consciousness, so we shouldn't treat them poorly.

eg a prawn may be no more than a biological robot, but a chimpanzee certainly isn't, and other animals like elephants, Whales etc might be not far behind.
 
Value Collector said:
No, where did you post the verses?

You made a specific claim eg. you said "you gotta deal with the fact that the history of several empires was accurately foretold by Daniel"

I asked you to provide the verse's where Daniel accurately foretold the history of several empires.

So far you have provided nothing but some unintelligible ramblings about your interpretation of unidentified parts of bible stories.



again, which verses were these predictions in?

and what exactly did they "predict so well"?
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it's all in there. the 4 empires ending in rome (babylon, persian, greek,rome) , including Alexander the Great , splitting into 4 kingdoms , and antiochus persecuting the Jews and destroying the temple.


also the 70 weeks of years before Messiah comes (to think Christ is so accurately predicted )...

just some other stuff i got off the net... talks about after rome , how other empires couldn't put themselves together. and how in the end, we'll see a forming of another empire from the formerly roman ??

Here is chapter 8 (different empires) and 9 (coming of Messiah). it's a commentary on the scriptures, with commentary on left and scriptures on right. if you use Ctrl-F and search for antiochus/alexander/ christ , the verses you seek will come up. why not read the commentary a little and see what you think. It's exciting for someone who never knew it.

chapter 8 (the empires i history)
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id317.html

chapter 9 (coming of Messiah)
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id318.html


The point of course is that it's all there before it happens...
 
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grah33 said:
it's all in there. the 4 empires ending in rome (babylon, persian, greek,rome) , including Alexander the Great , splitting into 4 kingdoms , and antiochus persecuting the Jews and destroying the temple.


also the 70 weeks of years before Messiah comes (to think Christ is so accurately predicted )...

just some other stuff i got off the net... talks about after rome , how other empires couldn't put themselves together. and how in the end, we'll see a forming of another empire from the formerly roman ??

Here is chapter 8 (different empires) and 9 (coming of Messiah). it's a commentary on the scriptures, with commentary on left and scriptures on right. if you use Ctrl-F and search for antiochus/alexander/ christ , the verses you seek will come up. why not read the commentary a little and see what you think. It's exciting for someone who never knew it.

chapter 8 (the empires i history)
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id317.html

chapter 9 (coming of Messiah)
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id318.html


The point of course is that it's all there before it happens...
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Bible verses Please.

I want to read what the bible verse actually says, not just here what your interpretation of it is.
 
noirua said:
Does that mean that thinking is the only difference between us and animals as far as death is concerned - in the longer term that is. Few animals mourn that long whilst it can linger until life's end in humans.
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Everyone processes loss differently in regard to time and emotional content. Add to that all other people involved with the loss and their reactions then life can be turbulent.
Dealing with loss starts at an early age and we deal with loss throughout our lives. Greater emotional connection prior to any loss is seemingly harder to process. People with a less emotional personality, i.e. put little emotion into a situation or toward a person, take loss easily. Acceptance can be a real test of inner strength. MUST get up, people need our help to get up too.
 
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Value Collector said:
Bible verses Please.

I want to read what the bible verse actually says, not just here what your interpretation of it is.
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Chapters 8 and 9. what I just gave you. all of it. one verse by itself is pointless. the commentary will help you. it spells history. you have to be familiar with history of course. the commentary will help
 
grah33 said:
Chapters 8 and 9. what I just gave you. all of it. one verse by itself is pointless. the commentary will help you. it spells history. you have to be familiar with history of course. the commentary will help
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The one we have to worry about is the s4itfight when all the combatants show their hands over Jerusalem and Jebus enters the room to sort the wheat from the chaff. I bags the back seats!
 
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