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grah33 said:
you gotta deal with the fact that the history of several empires was accurately foretold by Daniel. I like the way my Bible has these little footnotes written in it , referring to Alexander the Great and Antiochus (b4 they ever existed). I hear that's a throwback for you atheists...
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Still waiting for these bible verses
 
So back to Ronald Reagan -

If you we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, we will be a nation gone under.

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During the Cold War era, the government of the United States sought to distinguish itself from the Soviet Union, which promoted state atheism and thus implemented antireligious legislation.[12] The 84th Congress passed a joint resolution "declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States". The law was signed by President Eisenhower on July 30, 1956.[13] The United States Code at 36 U.S.C. § 302, now states: "'In God we trust' is the national motto."

The same day, the President signed into law[14] a requirement that "In God We Trust" be printed on all U.S. currency and coins. On paper currency, it first appeared on the silver certificate in 1957, followed by other certificates. Federal Reserve Notes and United States Notes were circulated with the motto starting from 1964 to 1966, depending on the denomination.[8][15] (Of these, only Federal Reserve Notes are still circulated.)

Representative Charles Edward Bennett of Florida cited the Cold War when he introduced the bill in the House, saying "In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continually look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom". [16]

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https://www.whitehouse.gov/
 
Tink said:
During the Cold War era, the government of the United States sought to distinguish itself from the Soviet Union, which promoted state atheism and thus implemented antireligious legislation.[12] /
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The Opposite of "Antireligious legislation" is "religious freedom legislation", any legislation that promotes one religion is actually still anti religious, because its suppressing all the other religions.

The United States was founded as a secular state, because they could see the dangers to personal freedom created by the European theocracies from which its people had fled looking for freedom.

the hysteria of the 1950's was used by the religious to try and attach their religion to the Nationalism that existed, and it has worked.

But the USA is definitely a secular nation, and has been since founding.

As I have said before, the words "Bible, Jesus, Christianity etc" do not appear in any founding documents, feel free to look.
 
Value Collector said:
As I have said before, the words "Bible, Jesus, Christianity etc" do not appear in any founding documents, feel free to look.
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Nevertheless US politicians find it hard to get elected if they are declared atheists, and most of them try to appeal to the religious Right (for money), or the religious Left (for the sympathy vote).
 
SirRumpole said:
Nevertheless US politicians find it hard to get elected if they are declared atheists, and most of them try to appeal to the religious Right (for money), or the religious Left (for the sympathy vote).
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Thats because a lot of US citizens are religious, and are indoctrinated to think atheists are bad people.

But it doesn't really matter which religion you belong to, as it would in a theocracy. I mean the Islamic religions have a bad rap at the moment, But you could be elected whether you are catholic, Baptist, Mormon, methodist, any sort of Jew or even if you are just into Oprah style Woo.

As long as you say you believe in something, you seem to be ok, thats a sure sign of a secular nation, rather than a theocratic government.
 
you can also see how Tink constantly tries to equate me with Stalin and communism, she has obviously been brain washed to think anyone that is simply unconvinced a god exists, is some how a communist. She seems to think that only a belief in a god can make a person good, I disagree.
 
Value Collector said:
Still waiting on the verses you promised.



But given that The NT prophet (Jesus) can disagree with the OT prophet (Abraham), Doesn't that make your example of Mohammed disagreeing with Jesus meaningless?

I am just following your rules here,

You say you can't have a religion where two prophets disagree, and you use an example of Mohamed disagreeing with an earlier prophet (Jesus), but Jesus himself disagrees with multiple earlier prophets,



yes, we would frown upon a man willing to kill his child because the voice in his head told him too.

In fact I think we would rightfully jail him in a looney bin, and I hope not even you would disagree we should.
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I'm currently resting my eyes for a short while so will limit posting here for a couple of days.

For now though a few things: It's not about the NT disagreeing with the OT, since there are ample explanations in it for things such as circumcision and unclean foods. It's all fully explained. But in Islam, we just get one claim about NT scriptures being corrupted, and given that Jesus's teachings and morals make so much sense to us, it's only natural to think it the other way around. Jews will also not accept Islam's view of Jesus.

Paul in the NT talks a little about Abraham. Later on in life after becoming holy, he was declared to be a righteous person, and a friend of God. Yet when this was said about him, he was still uncircumcised. Moral of the story: circumcision has nothing to do with sanctity and having morals, and a person can be morally acceptable without it. So the Christians, being part of the second covenant, made with bread and wine, have no need for it. Christ also explained some of these things. And this makes a lot of sense to me, since, when you're about to spread the biggest religion on the planet, you only want to demand the important stuff from people, ie proper morals and sound living. If it's not essential, get rid of it.

It's an unusual story but it's inspiring too. He held nothing back, and so was rewarded by becoming the father of an enduring nation. It's because of the greatness of their ancestor that they have forever remained.
 
grah33 said:
Jews will also not accept Islam's view of Jesus.

.
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They don't accept the christian view either.

and a person can be morally acceptable without it.
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Can a person be willing to slaughter their own child on an alter and still be moral?

given that Jesus's teachings and morals make so much sense to us,
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when you only cherry pick the good stuff, and ignore the inconvenient bit that Mohamed's teachings make more sense to the muslims.
 
Tink said:
So back to Ronald Reagan -

If you we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, we will be a nation gone under.

-----------
During the Cold War era, the government of the United States sought to distinguish itself from the Soviet Union, which promoted state atheism and thus implemented antireligious legislation.[12] The 84th Congress passed a joint resolution "declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States". The law was signed by President Eisenhower on July 30, 1956.[13] The United States Code at 36 U.S.C. § 302, now states: "'In God we trust' is the national motto."

The same day, the President signed into law[14] a requirement that "In God We Trust" be printed on all U.S. currency and coins. On paper currency, it first appeared on the silver certificate in 1957, followed by other certificates. Federal Reserve Notes and United States Notes were circulated with the motto starting from 1964 to 1966, depending on the denomination.[8][15] (Of these, only Federal Reserve Notes are still circulated.)

Representative Charles Edward Bennett of Florida cited the Cold War when he introduced the bill in the House, saying "In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continually look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom". [16]

---------------

https://www.whitehouse.gov/
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You miss out the second sentence.

"In God we Trust. Everybody else pay cash." :D
 
grah33 said:
I'm currently resting my eyes for a short while so will limit posting here for a couple of days.

For now though a few things: It's not about the NT disagreeing with the OT, since there are ample explanations in it for things such as circumcision and unclean foods. It's all fully explained. But in Islam, we just get one claim about NT scriptures being corrupted, and given that Jesus's teachings and morals make so much sense to us, it's only natural to think it the other way around. Jews will also not accept Islam's view of Jesus.

Paul in the NT talks a little about Abraham. Later on in life after becoming holy, he was declared to be a righteous person, and a friend of God. Yet when this was said about him, he was still uncircumcised. Moral of the story: circumcision has nothing to do with sanctity and having morals, and a person can be morally acceptable without it. So the Christians, being part of the second covenant, made with bread and wine, have no need for it. Christ also explained some of these things. And this makes a lot of sense to me, since, when you're about to spread the biggest religion on the planet, you only want to demand the important stuff from people, ie proper morals and sound living. If it's not essential, get rid of it.

It's an unusual story but it's inspiring too. He held nothing back, and so was rewarded by becoming the father of an enduring nation. It's because of the greatness of their ancestor that they have forever remained.
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You sure you're just resting your eyes and not taking up drinking? Don't hit the bottle too hard, I don't blame you 'cause a long debate with VC could do that to a religious person :D
 
grah33 said:
And if you want to talk about scriptures or the OT for that matter (to actually talk about something worthwhile for a change), you gotta deal with the fact that the history of several empires was accurately foretold by Daniel. I like the way my Bible has these little footnotes written in it , referring to Alexander the Great and Antiochus (b4 they ever existed). I hear that's a throwback for you atheists...
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Grah, to save you looking, these are the verses that supposedly foretold Alexander The Great and Antiochus.

In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me—to me, Daniel—after the one that appeared to me the first time. I saw in the vision, and it so happened while I was looking, that I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision that I was by the River Ulai. Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great. And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered. Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed” (Daniel 8:1-14).

After narrating what he saw in the vision, Daniel wondered what the dream meant. While in this state of contemplation, the angel Gabriel approached Daniel to explain the dream. Gabriel proceeded to offer an accurate interpretation of the events that Daniel saw:

The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. And the male goat is the kingdomof Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their fullness, a king shall arise, having fierce features, who understands sinister schemes. His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; he shall destroy fearfully, and shall prosper and thrive; he shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people. Through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;and he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without human means.And the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true; therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future (Daniel 8:20-26).

http://apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=13&article=4224

This is a rebuttal of those prophesies....

https://infidels.org/library/modern/chris_sandoval/daniel.html
 
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2014/12/03/4141760.htm

Good without God? Morality's Foundations Crumble in the Absence of Christianity
Peter HitchensABC Religion and Ethics3 Dec 201


In their attempt to argue that effective and binding codes can be developed without a deity, atheists often mistake inferior codes - "common decency" - for absolute moral systems. The Golden Rule, or doing as you would be done by, is such a code. But the fact that men can arrive at the Golden Rule without religion does not mean that man can arrive at the Christian moral code without religion.

Christianity requires much more, and above all does not expect to see charity returned. To love thy neighbour as thyself is a far greater and more complicated obligation, requiring a positive effort to seek the good of others, often in secret, sometimes at great cost and always without reward. Its most powerful expression is summed up in the words, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

It is striking that in his dismissal of a need for absolute theistic morality, my late brother Christopher statesthat "the order to 'love thy neighbour as thyself' is too extreme and too strenuous to be obeyed." Humans, he says, "are not so constituted as to care for others as much as themselves." This is demonstrably untrue, and can be shown to be untrue, first through the unshakeable devotion of mothers to their children; through thousands of examples of doctors and nurses risking (and undergoing) infection and death in the course of caring for others; in the uncounted cases of husbands caring for sick, incontinent and demented wives (and vice versa) at their lives' end; through the heartrending deeds of courage on the battlefield, of men actually laying down their lives for others.

We all know these things happen. If we are honest, they make us uncomfortable because we are not sure that we could do such things, though we know them to be right and admirable. In a society where the absolute code has been jettisoned, and we have all become adept at making excuses for shirking such duties, selflessness of this kind will become less common, nursing less dedicated, wives more inclined to leave their babbling husbands in care homes to be looked after impersonally by paid strangers and perhaps encouraged gently down the slope of death, soldiers readier to save themselves while their comrades lie in pain within reach of the enemy. And there will always be a worldly relativist on hand (as there already is at every marriage break-up and every abortion clinic, and increasingly by the bedside of the old and sick) to say that this was only sensible, to urge that we do the easy thing, and to say that it is right to do so.

Christianity is without doubt difficult and taxing, and all of us must fail to emulate the perfection of Christ himself, but we are far better for trying than for not trying, and we know that there is forgiveness available for honest failure. My brother's suggestion that we are urged to be superhuman "on pain of death and torture" reveals a misunderstanding both of the nature of the commandments and of the extent of forgiveness. There is also some excuse-making involved.

The difficult is being described as superhuman. Yes, there is fear in the Christian constitution, as there must be in any system of law and justice. I should be dismayed if deliberate unrepentant wickedness did not lead to retribution of some kind. But there is far more love offered for those who honestly seek to follow the law, and unbounded forgiveness for all who seek it - even those who have most vigorously defamed the faith and then embrace it just before the darkness falls.

And that is why, while it is perfectly possible for convinced atheists to do absolutely good deeds at great cost to themselves, not least because God so very much wishes them to, it is rather more likely that believing Christians will do such things. And when it comes to millions of small and tedious good deeds which are needed for a society to function with charity, honesty and kindness, a shortage of believing Christians will lead to that society's decay.

We can live at a low level of cooperation by mutual consideration. But as soon as we move beyond subsistence and the smallest units, problems arise which cannot be resolved by mutual decency. Some men grow richer, some are stronger, some acquire weapons. Power comes into being at a very early stage in human society. So do competition for scarce resources, and greed, and wars with other groups.

Mutual benefit ceases to offer any kind of guide to behaviour. Who is to say, in a city ruled by a single powerful and ruthless family from an impregnable fortress, that the strongest man is not also always right? In fact, the godless principle that the strongest is always right has been openly declared as recently as the twentieth century in Mussolini's Italy, and operated in practice in Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union and many other states.

In wars, men are repeatedly asked to undertake acts of selfless courage which they will not themselves survive. Men are expected to be responsible for the women who bear their children, for as long as they live. Women in return are expected to be faithful to those men. For economies to develop, men must be trusted to guard valuables which are not their own.

Again and again, for civilisation to exist and advance, human creatures are required to do things which they would not do "naturally" as mammals. Marriage is unnatural. Building for the future is unnatural. The practice of medicine is unnatural. The deferment of immediate gratification for a greater reward is unnatural. Charity is unnatural. Education is unnatural. Literacy is unnatural, as is the passing on of lore and history from one generation to another. Christian societies as a whole are "unnatural," requiring a host of actions which cannot be based on self-interest, however enlightened, or even on mutual obligation.

Meanwhile, the more civilised a society is, the more power is available within it. Power cannot be destroyed, only divided and distributed. It may shatter into an anarchic war of all against all. Or it may solidify into a tyranny. Or it may be resolved into a free society governed by universally acknowledged laws.

But on what basis can this be done? What agency can be used to place law above force? A law that does not stand above brute force, and have some sort of power that can overcome brute force, will not survive for long. How are inconvenient obligations, those of the banker and the messenger and the merchant, to be made binding? How are the young to made to accept the authority of parents and teachers, once they are physically strong enough to ignore them, but too inexperienced in life to know the value of peace and learning?

The answer, from a very early stage, was that such contracts were made binding by solemn oaths sworn in the name of Almighty God and, as Abraham Lincoln used to say of his Presidential Oath, "registered in heaven." These oaths called into every contract an external power, one whose awful vengeance no man could escape if he defied it, and which he would be utterly ashamed to break. As Sir Thomas More explains in Robert Bolt's play A Man for All Seasons, "When a man takes an oath ... he's holding his own self in his own hands. Like water. And if he opens his fingers then - he needn't hope to find himself again." In their utter reverence for oaths, men of More's era were in my view as superior to us as the builders of Chartres Cathedral were to the builders of vast urban housing projects. Our ancestors' undisturbed faith gave them a far closer, healthier relation to the truth - and so to beauty - than we have.

Without a belief in God and the soul, where is the oath? Without the oath, where is the obligation? Where is the law that even Kings must obey? Where is Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus or the Bill of Rights, all of which arose out of attempts to rule by lawless tyranny? Where is the lifelong fidelity of husband and wife? Where is the safety of the innocent child growing in the womb? Where, in the end, is the safety of any of us from those currently bigger and stronger than we are?

And how striking it is that such oaths were used to make men better, not worse, that the higher power, the magnetic north of moral truth, found an invariable answer in the urgings of conscience. These things are far higher than the mutuality and "human solidarity" on which the atheist must rely for morality - because he specifically denies the existence of any other origin for it.

This is not, alas, an argument for or against the existence of God, though it might just be an argument for the existence of good, with humankind left wondering how to discover what is good and what good is. It simply states the price that must sooner or later be paid for presuming that God does not exist and then removing him from human affairs. It also sets out the important benefit that can be obtained by placing God at the heart of a society.

I should have thought that those who are serious about their unbelief would be relieved by this logic, and glad to concede it. If they know, or are reasonably certain, that there is no ultimate authority and no judgement, they are instantly quite extraordinarily free. If they have a desire to become all-powerful, they are immensely free, since without God, law has no origin except power, and the more powerful they are, the more free they are.

But this freedom is as available to monsters and power-seekers as it is to advanced intellectuals dwelling in comfortable suburbs. And that leads to the state of affairs correctly summed up by the German philosopher Martin Heidegger, who in 1933 proclaimed from among the lovely towers and groves of the university at Freiburg-im-Breisgau, "The Fuhrer, and he alone, is the present and future law of Germany." Alas, he was absolutely right, and Adolf Hitler himself had to be destroyed before that law could be cancelled.

If atheists or anti-theists have the good fortune to live in a society still governed by religious belief, or even its twilit afterglow, they are free from absolute moral bonds, while those around them are not. This is a tremendous liberation for anyone who is even slightly selfish. And what clever person is not imaginatively and cunningly selfish?

Oddly enough, very few atheists are as delighted by this prospect as they ought to be. At least they are not delighted openly, or in public. Could this be because they really do not grasp this astonishingly simple point, based as it is on their own insistence that the only conceivable external source of law and morality does not exist? Why create such a difficulty for themselves at all?

Might it be because they fear that, by admitting their delight at the non-existence of good and evil, they are revealing something of their motives for their belief? Could it be that the last thing on earth they wish to acknowledge is that they have motives for their belief, since by doing so they would open up their flanks to attack?

Peter Hitchens is a columnist and reporter for the Mail on Sunday. In 2010 he was awarded the Orwell Prize for journalism. He is the author of many books, including The Rage against God, on which this article draws. You can listen to him in conversation with Brendan O'Neill on a recent Counterpoint on RN.
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Is it a property of metaphysics when you have a lunar eclipse of a super blue blood moon followed a 666 point fall in the Dow Jones ?
 
SirRumpole said:
I think we are in the realm of Nostradamus or Revelations, as in "the end of days". :cool:
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Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim and Bela. Even after Mr Circumcision Abraham Jewishly negotiated God down from 50 to 10 righteous people and apart from the three freeloading, rent avoiding angels, in the end there was Lot, his salty wife and two drink spiking daughters.

I think it's still four more people than parliament has at present.:laugh:
 
Tisme said:
Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim and Bela. Even after Mr Circumcision Abraham Jewishly negotiated God down from 50 to 10 righteous people and apart from the three freeloading, rent avoiding angels, in the end there was Lot, his salty wife and two drink spiking daughters.

I think it's still four more people than parliament has at present.:laugh:
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I'm sure Cory is righteous, and soon he'll have company. ;)
 
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