Value Collector
Have courage, and be kind.
- Joined
- 13 January 2014
- Posts
- 12,238
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But you claimed that wouldn't happen if they followed the 10 commandments,
But where in the 10 commandments does it outlaw beating gays?
The gays who were flogged in Indonesia were dragged and and turned over to the authorities by their local community, "average Muslims".
People who make such a big deal about Christian influence are ignoring the real problem.
Because to be honest I am not sure it is moral to force a woman to remain pregnant against her will.
As I said the only reason I am ok with putting restrictions on later term abortions is because women do the have the right to early term ones, so in the interest of trying to find some middle ground between a babies right to life and a woman right to her body, I think we should restrict late term but allow early term, so that if a women really does not want the pregnancy she is encouraged to do it earlier rather than later.
they aren't that different, I haven't said they are?
You are missing the whole point, The mother doesn't have the right to kill the baby, its just the baby doesn't have the right to be in the mothers womb if she doesn't want it there, the fact that the baby does without a womb to live in is just a fact of nature.
Answer me these 2 questions.
If a 21 year old man suffers kidney failure, and is going to die without a kidney, is it immoral for a mother to refuse to donate a kidney to him?
Should we legislate that mothers need to provide their bodies as needed to keep their children alive?
What you don't seem to understand is that the majority of the stuff you love about our modern democracies has only come about as we have gradually become less and less religious.
So what is your problem ?
.
I have no problems about being "less" religious without being totally amoral, I'm just saying that the religious ideas of Christianity , peace, love, tolerance all that molded our society into what it is today, a basically generous, tolerant, pluralistic and multicultural society, contrasted by countries where there is an absence of religion (eg China), or competing theocracies eg Muslim countries where human rights abuses and intolerance are widespread.
Sure you can go on about the Spanish Inquisition or other such stuff that happened centuries ago,
but I'm concerned about what is happening today and I'm basically glad I live in this country rather than a China or a primitive Muslim country
religious ideas of Christianity , peace, love, tolerance
I understand where you are coming from, since I had similar thoughts a long time ago. And from what you're saying, I still feel that you are okay with late term abortions, as you understand the basis for them . Your ability to understand this, relates to my argument very much, since I believe you will also have no problem understanding my point of view.
)
If you think a mother has such rights, then God (Creator, and a higher life form) truly has even more rights. Or, using different words similar to you, the infants don't have the right to be there if God doesn't want them there.
Can you see the similarity now between your argument and mine, justifying God's right to take away life (applying it to infants)?
(answers to your questions:No it's not immoral. No we shouldn't legislate.
thats just Humanism, not Christianity, if you want to cherry pick the nice parts of christianity, just ditch it and go straight to humanism.
The gays who were flogged in Indonesia were dragged and and turned over to the authorities by their local community, "average Muslims".
People who make such a big deal about Christian influence are ignoring the real problem.
So what is your problem ?
I have no problems about being "less" religious without being totally amoral, I'm just saying that the religious ideas of Christianity , peace, love, tolerance and all that molded our society into what it is today, a basically generous, tolerant, pluralistic and multicultural society, contrasted by countries where there is an absence of religion (eg China), or competing theocracies eg Muslim countries where human rights abuses and intolerance are widespread.
Sure you can go on about the Spanish Inquisition or other such stuff that happened centuries ago, but I'm concerned about what is happening today and I'm basically glad I live in this country rather than a China or a primitive Muslim country.
For most of its history, the Christian West was a real shiet hole with peasants living in rock huts and the gentry throwing raw sewage over their balconies each morning.
I am not going to discuss late term abortions since I have already said I am fine restricting them.
Thats where you get creepy, because their is no evidence the god you speak of exists, it turns out that its just religious people such as yourself saying that their opinions over rule every one else's, and they won't accept logic because they know the mind of god.
So if it's morally ok for a mother to deny using her body to keep a 21 year old alive, why is it wrong for her to deny using her body to keep a zygote of blastocyst alive?
If you are not going to legislate that a mother must donate blood or a kidney to her children to keep them alive, why would you want to legislate she had to donate her entire body for the period of the pregnancy.
There is not a lot of evidence for humanism (as a movement rather than idea) before Christianity, so it could be said that Christianity influenced humanism.
That's not a religious issue, it's a matter of resources available for sewerage works.
I mean, the idea to not kill each other and not steal each others stuff would have been pretty much universal across all human societies for at least 40,000 years before the bible or Jesus, other wise societies would never have formed.
You're fine with restricting late term abortions, that's great. But do you condemn late term abortions as being immoral? If not my argument applies.
And just assume God does exist, for the sake of the argument. Does my view now make sense?
It's about you saying God's actions are wrong, so that is why I inquire from you.
Although with pregnancy (unlike the kidney situation), the woman doesn't lose any body parts, she just performs a female function she is designed for)
The Egyptians had slaves,
the Romans invaded other cultures and enslaved them
Not very humanist ?
Well, if you're not 100 percent, then you're still not saying that late term abortions are immoral. So you shouldn't say God is immoral too , for doing a similar thing . Judaic context, scripture, and commentary all suggest God was performing a type of abortion (same too with Sodom and Gomorah) on the innocent that were in the way of things.To be honest I am not 100%, its hard to know where the line between I woman right to her body over rules a foetuses life, but as I said I am fine with combating that by just restrict the abortions to early terms.
No, because even if god existed, it doesn't mean everything he did would automatically be moral.
Dude, I don't even believe your god exists, the "God's actions" are normally carried out by psycho men with voices in their heads.
pregnancy has all sorts of risks, including death.
And guess what happens after those prayers for help are answered!Exactly.
Same can be said of Muslim countries, African and all other under-developed countries. It starts with not having any economic power among the plebs... then without money there's no chance of an education, no voice to be heard so they often turn to their country's favourite religion and pray for fortunes and good health.
With poverty come desperation for help from above. Those fathers and bishops then grant favours, send hope and prayers... at a steep price.
and saying the good stuff came from christianity is silly, because the good stuff has always been there, even if it gets pushed aside sometimes, its ben growing in the background despite religion not because of it.
Well, if you're not 100 percent, then you're still not saying that late term abortions are immoral. So you shouldn't say God is immoral too , for doing a similar thing.
Judaic context, scripture, and commentary all suggest God was performing a type of abortion (same too with Sodom and Gomorah) on the innocent that were in the way of things.
So you shouldn't say God is immoral too , for doing a similar thing .
When you start actively condemning the two biggest evils in the world today; ie radical Islam and totalitarianism then I'll believe that you have a sense of perspective, but right now I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
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