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Religion IS crazy!

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So the West is doing this?
 
Wysiwyg said:
That is why the goodies kill the baddies. If you lived in a totalitarian society .... well you wouldn't be alive today.
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If I live in a totalitarian society, I'd keep my mouth shut and won't stop clapping. So I'd be alive and well.

There are no goodies and baddies when it comes to war and international conflicts. Who decides whose killing is "good", whose are "bad"? All killings are bad and terrible.

In case you think the Coalition is over in the ME to liberate, bring democracy and build freedom and stuff... just take a look at the place.

Look up Afghanistan president Karzai... He eventually tell the Americans that maybe they ought to do some rebuilding of the place, help the people a bit. Lucky for him it would look bad to remove him so it's decided that the power of Afghanistan shouldn't be in the hand of its president, but another titled prop.

Anyway, it's imperialism at work. If you want to believe it as anything else... I got a bridge you can take it off me for cheap.
 
Wysiwyg said:
So the West is doing this?
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Who's in that coalition of the willing? Some Arab states too, so it's not all Western countries.

Recall one of Chomsky's finer lines... the US and Pentagon/State planners don't care for Islam or Judaism in any of those countries in the M.E. Those people can be Martians for all they care. As long as they do what they're told, as long as the place provide that strategic and stupendous source of wealth oil and commodities provides, it will need a firm hand of freedom.

And just in case you think I'm anti-Western or whatever, I've said the same thing of Chinese, Soviets/Russian, Vietnamese aggression.

China just sent a sizable number of its military personnel into its base in Djibouti. They don't call it military force of course. It's just a "logistic base", on the horn of Africa, ready to defend the looting of African resources against pirates and their canoes.

Best to know things for what they are I reckon.
 

The West is not in the M.E to help out if that's what you're saying.

Like all countries and all states, they're there to defend their national interests. Just that that interests meet resistance and so will have to be pacified.

Look at the case of Saddam... have you seen Rumsfeld shaking his hands? Providing him with weapons and WMD? Why? Because he's right next to Iran, he want to slaughter the Iranians, take its oil fields... and the US wouldn't mind a bastard slapping a bunch of Islamist rebel daring to overthrow the Shah to reclaim Iranian independence.

That's not to say that Iran is a pleasant place to live or that its Clerics, or that ISIS etc. etc. are nice and stuff. Just things are way beyond good and evil. They're statecraft and all that national interests business that's way above our understanding. So we have to be lied to, like children being kept out of how the sausage is made.

Anyway, I read a fair bit of history. It's not that hard to understand when you stand back and not take sides.
 
luutzu said:
If I live in a totalitarian society, I'd keep my mouth shut and won't stop clapping. So I'd be alive and well.
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That is very funny.

There are no goodies and baddies when it comes to war and international conflicts. Who decides whose killing is "good", whose are "bad"? All killings are bad and terrible.
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The baddies want to either kill or control their victims. If you live then kiss your life choices goodbye. Freedom v domination. That is why the goodies sacrifice their lives, for freedom. E.g. American Civil War.
 
luutzu said:
Who's in that coalition of the willing? Some Arab states too, so it's not all Western countries.
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Finally, for tonight anyway, since my teens when I was a Midnight Oil fan, I have strongly believed America should be a passive world power. However without their support during the great war the Nazis may well be controlling everything west of Russia.
The on going problem is in the mind man, look at Kim Jong's brain. Oh but that's because America is basing nearby isn't it. Mania, schizophrenia, self aggrandisement, paranoia, dominance/submission .... with our thoughts, we make the world.
 
Wysiwyg said:
The baddies want to either kill or control their victims.
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Here is the thing though, in every conflict, both sides believe they are the good guys.

Both sides are willing to commit acts of extreme violence in the name of their cause, because they believe they are right.

Hence my distain for religion and the concept of believing things on faith, because with faith there is pretty much nothing you can't believe, and nothing can change your mind.

Religion warps peoples world views and makes them believe all sorts of things that are not real, this leads to actions which can be terrible.
 
Value Collector said:
So far its mainly muslim blood and resources that have been used the most to defeat ISIS.
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That's the point I've being trying to make for some time.

Luutzu seems to thinks the war on ISIS is all about western jackboots tromping all over the poor citizens of Mosul in pursuit of oil or diamonds or whatever.
 
SirRumpole said:
That's the point I've being trying to make for some time.
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So you are willing to accept that muslims are both the main victims of islamic extremists, and also the main group trying to defeat islamic extremists, yet you still want to lump them all together in one group.
 
Value Collector said:
So you are willing to accept that muslims are both the main victims of islamic extremists, and also the main group trying to defeat islamic extremists, yet you still want to lump them all together in one group.
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Have I ever said that all Muslims are terrorists ?

The fact that Saudi Arabia is trying to defeat ISIS does not detract in any way from the atrocities that Saudi Arabia itself commits in the name of Islam.
 
SirRumpole said:
Have I ever said that all Muslims are terrorists ?
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I am not saying you do call all muslims terrorists.

I am saying you lump them all into one group, and act like every one that calls themselves Muslim is subscribed to the same religion, while you don't do that with Christianity, you accept there are many versions of christianity a lot of which reject parts of their holy texts, but you fail to realise that its the same with Islam, not all muslims interpret their text in the way the saudis or ISIS do.

The fact that Saudi Arabia is trying to defeat ISIS does not detract in any way from the atrocities that Saudi Arabia itself commits in the name of Islam.
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But you want to treat the average hard working Aussie battlers Muslim, as if he has the same religion as the Saudi theocrats, when he probably doesn't.
 
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SirRumpole said:
That's the point I've being trying to make for some time.

Luutzu seems to thinks the war on ISIS is all about western jackboots tromping all over the poor citizens of Mosul in pursuit of oil or diamonds or whatever.
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Just yesterday, a headline say Trump's admin want American mining corps to have a meeting with the Afghanistan government on.... freedom? Democracy?

There's a gold or copper deposit estimated at some $US1 Trillion. I guess it's just accidental.
 
Wysiwyg said:
That is very funny.

The baddies want to either kill or control their victims. If you live then kiss your life choices goodbye. Freedom v domination. That is why the goodies sacrifice their lives, for freedom. E.g. American Civil War.
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Funny. And true. I'd probably do what some North Korean does at those public gathering... rub dirt in my eyes to bring on the waterworks to show devotion to the dear leader, and death to the capitalist pigs.

The American Civil War weren't fought to free the slaves.

Lincoln didn't sign that emancipation to free them either. It's to remove a major labour force in the South, further weakening the Southern economy, stir up some rebellion, force the confederates to at least use some of its resources to police a potential uprising from the slaves.

And it and did "free" the slaves.

Though if you look into what happen to most of the slaves after they were freed... new laws were instituted to make it very, very easy to imprison a black person. Like looking at a White lady funny, standing at some corner and be "up to no good", potentially.

That law lock up plenty of blacks. Those prisoners were then put back to work as chain gangs.

And here they are much worst off than when they were slaves. Because a plantation owner would treat their slaves better than a prison... it's their assets, they got to feed and shelter it more properly. Leaving the beating and raping to a minimum.

With blacks as prisoners... well they're criminals. Fed and housed by the state at taxpayers expenses. The plantation owners can hire the chain gangs out. Then off they go back to another site once the season is over.

See, there's the Disney version then there's real history.

Don't forget Segregation in the US didn't end until the 60s, some 100 years after that Civil War to free the slave.
 
luutzu said:
There's a gold or copper deposit estimated at some $US1 Trillion. I guess it's just accidental.
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Years ago I heard the massive Copper deposit being mentioned as a key part of how the Afghanistan government was eventually going to be weaned off outside support and become self funding.

At the time 2020 was the year they aiming for to be able to end outside funding, at the time that seemed along way a off, now it's not that far off, but man that going to be a difficult mining operation from a security stand point, and transporting the out put over the boarder in china seems easy enough, but I would imagine it's going to be expensive providing the security.

You are a sitting duck on those mountain crossings.

 
Value Collector said:
but you fail to realise that its the same with Islam, not all muslims interpret their text in the way the saudis or ISIS do.
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The majority of Muslim countries implement violations of human rights so I don't want that sort of thing to happen here.
 
SirRumpole said:
The majority of Muslim countries implement violations of human rights so I don't want that sort of thing to happen here.
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So do the majority of christian theocratic nations, but that doesn't mean all christians believe those same things.
 
SirRumpole said:
What Christian theocratic nations ?
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The African ones you don't count for a start.

But, there is less true christian theocracies in existence now, But don't let that fool you, remember how they acted when they had all the power, the fact that there is not as many christian theocracies committing terrible deeds is not because something about christianity makes it better, it's because western society has become more secular.
 
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