Religion IS crazy!

[luutzu]

Mate, I didn’t ask for your opinions on the entire Israel/Palestine conflict. I simply asked how you think Israel should respond to Hamas trying to wipe them out and destroy their country by lobbing rockets at them.

I answered you before with a scenario, you asked me to answer it properly.

Here goes:

Israel has the right to defend itself.
No nation could stand by and let missiles rain upon its people;
"Never again."
"The only Democracy in the Middle East."
"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children, but we can never forgive them for forcing us to kill their children."


You want one line and one-sided answers? There's plenty of those around.

 

[bunyip]

I answered you before with a scenario, you asked me to answer it properly.

Here goes:

Israel has the right to defend itself.
No nation could stand by and let missiles rain upon its people;

Simply questions deserve simply answers, not bloody great long responses and in-depth analysis that most people don’t bother reading anyway.
Thank you for finally giving me one.

I’ve heard both the Palestinians and the Israelis state their case in claiming ownership of the land occupied by Israel. I don’t have an opinion one way or the other on the ownership issue.

Any media reporting on this issue is invariably heavily biased in favor of the Palestinians and against the Israelis – big bad Israel portrayed as demons for killing innocent people.
Little is said about the Hamas cowards who deliberately fire their rockets from schools and hospitals and residential areas so that maximum casualties will result from the inevitable Israeli retaliation.
Little is said about Israel attempting to minimize casualties by broadcasting their intention to hit a specific area, and advising residents to leave immediately. Little is said about the Hamas cowards telling people to stay where they are and ignore the Israeli warnings, and threatening them with violence if they don’t.

Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors who would gladly cut every Israeli throat if they could. For years the Arabs have stated their intention to ‘drive the Jews into the sea’.
They only reason they haven’t been able to do it is that the Israelis have the ability to defend themselves.

One thing I know for sure is that if someone was trying to kill me and my family and destroy our home, it wouldn’t take me long to hit back and give them an even heavier dose of their own medicine. Israel has every right to do the same.

 

[SirRumpole]

I don’t have an opinion one way or the other on the ownership issue.

But that is the crux iof the whole Israel/Palestine problem isn't it ?

You can't just wave the ownership issue away and pretend it has no relevance. If Israel did not keep encroaching onto Palestinian occupied land destroying Palestinian homes and putting up Jewish settlements in their place then perhaps there would be no need for the rockets fired on Israel.

It's not the Israelis being driven into the sea, it's the Palestinians.

 

[Value Collector]

But when does the conflict end?

Will the hard lined Jewish who believe god gifted the land to them ever give up their god given right?

Will either side ever negotiate with real intent to settle on a solution when they know their god is on their side, and the other side a godless heathens?

Will they lay down their religions long enough for their future generations to intermarry and work together?

I don't think so.

This is the core of what makes religion crazy, it creates the most divisive "Us and them" mentality there is.

In general Jewish marry Jews, children go to Jewish schools, socialize with other Jewish families, live and work in Jewish neighbourhoods, and the Muslims act the same.

It's the worst kind of tribalism, It's almost impossible to over come, that's why these things last for generations, There will be no end as long as religion is seen as an important, unquestionable thing. 50 years we will still have conflict.

 

[bunyip]

But that is the crux iof the whole Israel/Palestine problem isn't it ?

You can't just wave the ownership issue away and pretend it has no relevance. If Israel did not keep encroaching onto Palestinian occupied land destroying Palestinian homes and putting up Jewish settlements in their place then perhaps there would be no need for the rockets fired on Israel.

It's not the Israelis being driven into the sea, it's the Palestinians.

Every man and his dog seems to have an opinion on what the crux of the problem is. I doubt if people like you and me sitting in the comfort of our home offices really know. And the biased reporting from the media sure as hell isn’t a reliable source of information on which to make a judgment. So I won’t.

Perhaps VC is somewhere close to the mark in saying it’s the worst kind of tribalism. Chuck in a couple of fanatical religions for good measure, and you've got a problem that’s almost impossible to overcome.

 

[SirRumpole]

Every man and his dog seems to have an opinion on what the crux of the problem is. I doubt if people like you and me sitting in the comfort of our home offices really know. And the biased reporting from the media sure as hell isn’t a reliable source of information on which to make a judgment. So I won’t.

Perhaps VC is somewhere close to the mark in saying it’s the worst kind of tribalism. Chuck in a couple of fanatical religions for good measure, and you've got a problem that’s almost impossible to overcome.

Left to their own devces the Israelis and Palestinians will most likely never reach a solution.

Any end to the problem will have to be imposed on them by the rest of the world, if they(we) have the guts to do it.

 

[bunyip]

SBS ran a great story recently on Indonesia's 'Sex Mountain'.
If ever there was an example of double standards and hypocrisy in religion, it can be found in this story of Muslims who make the pilgrimage to 'Sex Mountain' for ritual sex sessions in the hope that it will bring them good fortune and financial riches.

The blessing of Allah be upon them - HALLELUIAH!

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/story/sex-mountain

 

[bunyip]

Left to their own devces the Israelis and Palestinians will most likely never reach a solution.

Any end to the problem will have to be imposed on them by the rest of the world, if they(we) have the guts to do it.

How far do we go in trying to solve the problems of the rest of the world? We have lots of problems right here in our own country that need solving.

But I think you're right in saying the Israelis and Palestinians on their own are unlikely to solve the issue, and any solution would have to come from outside.
Do you have any thoughts on what that solution might be?

 

[SirRumpole]

Do you have any thoughts on what that solution might be?

A line in the sand as a barrier to future encroachments on the West Bank and Gaza strip enforced by UN troops, tanks and missile launchers if necessary. Probably some sort of "no man's land" where only the UN troops are allowed.

 

[Value Collector]

A line in the sand as a barrier to future encroachments on the West Bank and Gaza strip enforced by UN troops, tanks and missile launchers if necessary. Probably some sort of "no man's land" where only the UN troops are allowed.

Which nations troops?

What would the UN do when Hamas continue firing rockets into Israel? would you say the UN can then fire into Palestine?

I think they would just become a target for the extremists on both sides, It still wouldn't settle the dispute, the Arabs want the Jews gone.

and how long would this last for? are you suggesting a DMZ type thing such as in Korea? sounds expensive.

 

[luutzu]

Simply questions deserve simply answers, not bloody great long responses and in-depth analysis that most people don’t bother reading anyway.
Thank you for finally giving me one.

I’ve heard both the Palestinians and the Israelis state their case in claiming ownership of the land occupied by Israel. I don’t have an opinion one way or the other on the ownership issue.

Any media reporting on this issue is invariably heavily biased in favor of the Palestinians and against the Israelis – big bad Israel portrayed as demons for killing innocent people.
Little is said about the Hamas cowards who deliberately fire their rockets from schools and hospitals and residential areas so that maximum casualties will result from the inevitable Israeli retaliation.
Little is said about Israel attempting to minimize casualties by broadcasting their intention to hit a specific area, and advising residents to leave immediately. Little is said about the Hamas cowards telling people to stay where they are and ignore the Israeli warnings, and threatening them with violence if they don’t.

Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors who would gladly cut every Israeli throat if they could. For years the Arabs have stated their intention to ‘drive the Jews into the sea’.
They only reason they haven’t been able to do it is that the Israelis have the ability to defend themselves.

One thing I know for sure is that if someone was trying to kill me and my family and destroy our home, it wouldn’t take me long to hit back and give them an even heavier dose of their own medicine. Israel has every right to do the same.

What media have you been reading to say they're all pro-Palestinians?

With the recent terrorist act in the Synagogue, a headline on HuffingtonPost (a left-leaning, liberal media I think) reads: "MASSACRE IN JERUSALEM". I'm not making light of 5 deaths and 8 injured or that act... but massacre? I didn't see any title to that extend during "protective edge".

I saw Newsweek or something like that have a timeline of recent events leading up to the current crisis and it starts with a Palestinian attempted assassination on that ultra right activist Click or something.

All the other points you've raised about Israel's "knock" to warn, or dropping of leaflets... there's plenty of that covered, in just about all media reporting. You should look deeper into it. And seriously, is it more humane to drop a small bomb first (one which might kill them if it hit near them), then a bigger few to level the building in five minutes?

Re Hamas forcing Gazans to stay as human shield, that has been exposed as lies.

There are evidence of some Israeli soldiers actually, literally, tie a Palestinian on their Humvee as they drive into Gaza neighbourhood. There's a few instances of Israel taking over a building and keeping a few people inside and near windows as Israeli snipers go about their business - taking out bad guys across the other buildings.

BUt let say it's true that Hamas use human shields in those buildings, does it make Israel right to then kill the hostages anyway? Like a crazy gunman holding a bank with hostages and our Police says, stuff that, we're not going to be deterred by human shields, bring in the Hornets and level the building... that sounds wrong to me.

Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors who would gladly cut every Israeli throat if they could. For years the Arabs have stated their intention to ‘drive the Jews into the sea’.
They only reason they haven’t been able to do it is that the Israelis have the ability to defend themselves.

All nations are surrounded by hostile, or potentially hostile neighbours. That's why you have your armed forces and will use them IF and WHEN you're attacked... In the mean time, you make peace, use diplomacy and trade etc. But if you have arms and use it to occupy and suppress your neighbour, what do you expect them to do? They'd want to rise up... then you blame them and their friends for not being "quiet".

One thing I know for sure is that if someone was trying to kill me and my family and destroy our home, it wouldn’t take me long to hit back and give them an even heavier dose of their own medicine. Israel has every right to do the same.

We all would do the same, even the Palestinians.

There are right now some 90 orders from Israel to demolish Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem. A few of them the homes of the terrorists, the others probably suspects or whatever.

Even Tony Soprano wouldn't do that. He would whack the rat, dump the bodies, but leave the family alone.
Here, civilised Israel blow up or bulldoze homes belonging to terrorists parents/family.. .kick them to the street and living in tent, then soon bus them to refugee camps. Then, under its law, if the land is vacated for 2 years, it belong to the State and the state will settles Jewish Israelis there.

 

[SirRumpole]

Which nations troops?

Rotation policy

What would the UN do when Hamas continue firing rockets into Israel? would you say the UN can then fire into Palestine?

Arrest the Hamas leaders, they are responsible.

I think they would just become a target for the extremists on both sides, It still wouldn't settle the dispute, the Arabs want the Jews gone.

There must be the will to supply overwhelming force to deter attacks.

and how long would this last for? are you suggesting a DMZ type thing such as in Korea? sounds expensive.

As long as necessary. If you want a solution, someone has to pay. I'm not suggesting this would ever happen, the UN simply hasn't got the guts, but it's the only solution that I can see.

 

[luutzu]

A line in the sand as a barrier to future encroachments on the West Bank and Gaza strip enforced by UN troops, tanks and missile launchers if necessary. Probably some sort of "no man's land" where only the UN troops are allowed.

I think just about all experts I've heard on the subject said that a two state solution is no longer possible.

Chomsky recently quoted some senior Israeli ministers as saying that Israel will take what it want - the best land, all water resources; will control all aspect of Palestinian life - its borders, its air space, its trades, its travels etc.; basically take what is deemed essential and the Palestinians can have "fry chickens"... They can call what they have a state if they want.

There are already 'No Man's Land' around Israel/Palestine.

In Gaza farmers cannot walk to the border let alone farm within some hundreds of metre or 1KM of its border with Israel - they will receive warning shots if they try.

Gazan fisherman cannot go further than 3KM (new agree now allow for 6KM) out to sea. The world's Exclusive Economic Zone is 200KM i think. So what fish can you catch within 6km?

In the West Bank, there are buffer zones all around Israeli settlements and military outposts.
Those buffer zones cannot be worked on, cannot be farmed on, cannot be use at all. ANd under Israeli law, if they're vacant - which they are - for more than 2 years, the owner cannot ever reclaim it.

From Shever, an Israeli economist, he said what Israel and settlers do is they go to set up trailers inside Palestinian land, the thugs and gangs goes there and burn or kick out the Palestinians... then the police or army declare buffer zones around those trailers/settlement... and pretty soon new proper settlements are up and running.

I saw a clip of a Palestinian man saying his land was up there but he can't get to them; that he'd wish they'd draw up a border over what they want of his farm land so at least he could farm on what's not taken and survive. But with military outposts and buffer zone, people like him just can't go near and will eventually lost all those land.

 

[bunyip]

If Israel want peace, it can have it tomorrow.

Tell us how. And keep it short and concise if you want me to read it.

 

[Tisme]

I think just about all experts I've heard on the subject said that a two state solution is no longer possible.

.

Seems it might a genome problem set to dog the factions for a long time to come:


http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1003316

 

[Value Collector]

1, Rotation policy



2, Arrest the Hamas leaders, they are responsible.



3,There must be the will to supply overwhelming force to deter attacks.



.

1, So you would have a large international force on rotation? I can't see how putting any western nations on the ground would help, so is it going to be made up of Bangladeshi and Malaysians?

So are they going to be firing counter rockets into Palestine? How would that be different to the Israel doing it?

2, yes, because killing Saddam Hussein stabilised Iraq so well.

3, Israel has been suppling overwhelming force, how is this international occupation going to be different.

 

[SirRumpole]

1, So you would have a large international force on rotation? I can't see how putting any western nations on the ground would help, so is it going to be made up of Bangladeshi and Malaysians?

So are they going to be firing counter rockets into Palestine? How would that be different to the Israel doing it?

2, yes, because killing Saddam Hussein stabilised Iraq so well.

3, Israel has been suppling overwhelming force, how is this international occupation going to be different.

So what's your solution, prayer ?

 

[luutzu]

Tell us how. And keep it short and concise if you want me to read it.

Call the Palestinian to the table, move back to the UN-Internationally recognised borders of 1967, possibly make some land-swap where settlements have now made it too difficult and let the Palestinian people go.

These, from just about all the observers and experts I've heard, are not only internationally legal and legitimate requirements, it's very very reasonable and it is what the Palestinians, from Arafat to even Hamas, wanted. They don't like it, who would like to lose 80% of their homeland, but they will accept it because the world accept it and because the Palestinian cannot hope to get anything more.

If you're Israel and have the arms and friends Israel has, you seriously think a little guy like Palestine - one without tanks, without jets, without a navy, ones whose leadership literally lived off of your money... you think Palestine have any leverage to demand anything really?

But no matter how weak or poor a people is, you cannot ask them to agree to a peace where they cannot have an airport, cannot freely move, where they cannot have a defense force, where their land have no water resources, where their territories are bisected by foreigners roads, where they cannot reach their own border.

Would you or anyone really settle for that?

--------------

LONGER VERSION:

Israel was, and is, an Imperial project of biblical proportion.

Part of the reason Truman agreed to its establishment was because he's an evangelical christian, he believes in the Bible and how Palestine was land promised to the Israelite by God; that Christ's second coming will only happen once the land is returned to the Jewish people etc. etc.

General George Marshall (who was then at the State Dept. i think) was against this, he correctly predicted that establishing Israel would cause a great deal of animosity among the Arabs against US interests, that the region will be in chaos. There's Turkey and Saudi Arabia etc. as American allies, you do not want to help the Jewish people and upset an entire region - it is not to US national interests etc.

That was ignored and so Israel was established.

It was not until the 1967 war when Israel took all the Arab states by surprise that the US start to notice that maybe Israel could be a useful military ally in the region... hence its increase military support.

Since then, most funding to Israel are from Military Aids at around $3 billions a year; hundreds of millions of tax-deductible charitable donations from (mainly US) evangelical Christians to help settlement development and expansion; the military and security/police industrial complex from both US and within Israel.

Military Aids from the US are so due to some cold-war thinking about Israel still being an asset. That might slowly be eroding as the US seek closer ties with Iran else the Chinese or Russian might get to them first, getting valuable fossil and geopolitically important assets back East. That and its pivot to Asia. So if the US do not get friendly with Iran, China and Russia will and they can very easily transfer nuclear technology for a piece of strategic and monetary interests.

That and Israel have very strong lobbyists in the US working towards it causes. So closer ties with Iran doesn't make Israel happy, and it might not make the new GOP Senate and Congress happy either... but if you read comments on news relating to Israel from the US, a lot of neutral Americans - ones who neither like or dislike Israel or Palestine... they all do not like their $3 billions a year aid to a rich country that is at war all the time. They might sway political opinions one day, especially when the older generation of Jewish people are less political influential and the younger general, ones more distanced from Israel as somehow representative of their Jewishness, one who would not be emotionally attached so would look at things more objectively... when they are more politically influential... American policies will change towards Israel.

The evangelicals with their hundreds of millions donations... they will keep on giving until all of Palestine belong to the Jews... so that their lord Christ will return, the world will end and all humanity (except for the good Christians a handful of Jews who turn to Christ in time) will die. So they'll keep on donating to help a greater goal of Armageddon.

Israel cannot stop its expansion because doing that will not only mean the loss of this funding, but mean less land and a lot of headache and maybe assassination from ultra nationalists. Why would any good politician want to do something that courageous?

The third source is the military and police industrial complex.

Sher Hever (i think that's his name), estimate Israel spend around $10 billion a year on police and security forces on its settlements. That does not include the costs of war and national defence, just policing. Probably include costs of imprisoning terrorists and stone throwers too.

With each "Operation", the military tries out new weapons and new technology. These are then used by the manufacturers at its expos around the world. Demonstrating how effective the weapons are. The policing, the training, tactics, the surveillant technologies like drones and electronic/internet eaves dropping and metadata collection... these are also a major source of Israeli exports. They train Singaporean military; they train the Thai regime on how to control protests and set up barriers... and probably work together with US companies on metadata and electronic surveillance the world over.

These three forces has and will make it almost impossible for Israel to want any peace or any settlement. So the ongoing conflict is good for business and good for religious nuts... if a few Jewish die now and then, that's what the masters of war call an acceptable level of loss... especially when the gain is new land and new excuses for further annexation, stronger case for non-negotiation under "security" reasons.

The fourth and major force is the Israeli people themselves. In order to continue occupation and military presence, you have to indoctrinate your youth. You have to drum it into them that this is your land, the land of your ancestors thousands of years ago... that the Arabs will want to slit your throats, and now and then a few of them did do just that... So the youths are send on school excursions to Nazi concentration camps, to see how close their people were to extinction.

To be taught to see the world as your enemies, or at least the Arabs first... that cannot be healthy for the mind. To then be recruited into the army, spending every day treating the Arabs like animals - so that the Arab know who's boss... to get your youths to do that kind of thing cannot be good for your national psyche. To be taught that you're special because you're Jewish and it's in your blood, and others are not so special because they're not Jewish... that tend not to prepare you to see others are equal or have similar dreams and aspirations as you do.

That and living under constant threats of, and now and then a real, terrorist attack...

These are some of the reasons why observers and scholars like Chomsky or Finkelstein have long concluded that Israel is on the road to self-destruction.


The Europeans, who never was really that much in love with the Jewish people I don't think, are getting sick of having to pick up the tab each time Israel goes to war and destroy Gaza, sick of seeing their money being use to help pay for new settlement developments. So are the Americans... that and the Palestinian refugees who fled to the Western world might soon, if not already, are starting to be in some position of political influence.

No nation is ever going to fund another nation's perpetual war... it's both morally repugnant as well as financially draining.

What further benefits can Israel gain from the Palestinians that it hasn't already gained? It got all the land and resources it need; it already established itself... going further will just mean constant militarising the nation and the people... and how can your own nation advance when most of your resources and people are busy suppressing fire and resistance?

---

As an aside, it is quite stupid, really stupid... to go and spend money to entice new people to live in your land as citizens simply because their blood type is "pure" to your liking. To do that and right in your own home you have literally millions of people who grew up on the land, are already your citizens and desperate to be part of your country and want to help it and themselves grow... that you would make law and treat them as second class citizens doing menial work.

So on the one hand you expend money and forces to suppress some 20% of your own citizens (because they're not Pure), make it unbearable for them so they'd leave or commit terrorism and be deported enmass... then go and recruit new people to replace them.

 

[luutzu]

1, So you would have a large international force on rotation? I can't see how putting any western nations on the ground would help, so is it going to be made up of Bangladeshi and Malaysians?

So are they going to be firing counter rockets into Palestine? How would that be different to the Israel doing it?

2, yes, because killing Saddam Hussein stabilised Iraq so well.

3, Israel has been suppling overwhelming force, how is this international occupation going to be different.

Aren't the UN forces, mainly Filipino i think, already stationed at the Golan Heights - between Syria?

Israel might win all its battles but it will lose this war.

I think that most people in the world do believe that Israel is a democracy, a Western and civilised country etc... So the world, and especially the Jewish people growing up in the West, they're mostly liberal and idealistic. That and having been told Israel is one of the good guys will really get them to wonder why then are the Palestinians being treated like this by a friend like Israel.

I mean, Iraq or another African regimes... those are the bad guys and bad guys do bad things so people would just shrug and ignore it. Israel have painted itself as a moral and righteous knight... something about that that upset people more when they found out what's been done - especially the Jewish people abroad when they look into it closely.

 

[Value Collector]

Aren't the UN forces, mainly Filipino i think,

No, Dozens of countries currently have commitment to the Un, the Philippines currently only has 278 troops.

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/contributors/2014/oct14_1.pdf