Religion IS crazy!

[luutzu]

Perhaps if she had instilled some scepticism in them, and raised them with a bit of doubt and not told them the Qu'ran was the infallible word of a god things might have been different.

What if those idiots decision to go had more to do with other things than just religion/Islam?
Youthful ignorance, misplaced sense of justice and heroism or whatever it is that led young people to join armies.
Whatever it is, I'm glad they're out of the country.

Recently saw a couple of lectures by Max Blumenthal regarding July's "Operation Protective Edge" on Gaza. Blumenthal said that at a funeral of an American who left the US to join the IDF for that war, Kerry was there and said that he stood in awe of the heroic and courageous this and that of that American kid who left the safety of his home in the US to fight for Israel's freedom and democracy etc...

Palestinians and most neutral observers would see Israel's war differently, but you know, perspective, relativity, our side is good their side is evil and what not.

 

[FxTrader]

What if those idiots decision to go had more to do with other things than just religion/Islam?
Youthful ignorance, misplaced sense of justice and heroism or whatever it is that led young people to join armies.
Whatever it is, I'm glad they're out of the country.

Religion (Islam) is the core motivation behind those "idiots". Why? Because they say so, over and over again. It's time for apologists for religion to wake up and listen to what such people are saying about their own motivations and believe it instead of living in the fantasy land of imagined ulterior motives.

Palestinians and most neutral observers would see Israel's war differently, but you know, perspective, relativity, our side is good their side is evil and what not.

Equating what Jewish people do to protect their democratic state to ISIS in such a way is a shameful false equivalence. However, once again, religion rears its ugly head on both sides of this conflict.

 

[luutzu]

Maybe if she told them that eating pork was fine they may have opened a spare rib restaurant instead of going to war.

As the old say goes, war is where old men make plans and young men die carrying it out.

I think that if you look closely at it, most wars, even religious ones, are not done because of religion. Religion is one of the tools politicians, kings and generals use to first recruit then unite and empower soldiers (and terrorists) to go and fight and kill and die for whatever objectives the masters of men have in mind. These objectives, while it might include the establishment of a religion onto the conquered, are always for political, geopolitical advantages and whatever money and resources that flow from those gains.

It's harder to convince the masses to join you and wage war for money and power... so it always have to be done for justice, freedom, for God.

God, unkind as he is, does not care for oil or gas or territory... it's all His, no matter where it is on Earth. But you can't say that if you want to be Masters of War.

 

[pavilion103]

You guys seriously need to get a life. Posting in here all day every day for months on end is such a waste of time.

The topic is so broad as to be useless. All religions are thrown into one and no one even understands what Christianity is. It's all based on perceptions and things they've heard on the grape vine. I'd also argue against the Christianity that you guys are arguing against because I don't believe in that either.

Go spend time with family, work on projects. Don't waste your life going around in circles.

 

[luutzu]

Religion (Islam) is the core motivation behind those "idiots". Why? Because they say so, over and over again. It's time for apologists for religion to wake up and listen to what such people are saying about their own motivations and believe it instead of living in the fantasy land of imagined ulterior motives.


Equating what Jewish people do to protect their democratic state to ISIS in such a way is a shameful false equivalence. However, once again, religion rears its ugly head on both sides of this conflict.

Emotions aside, objectively speaking.. do you think ISIS or any terrorists consider themselves such?
No one goes to war thinking they're the bad guys. That's just a fact.

You need to look into Israel and Palestine. It's not as you say it is.

Firstly, Israel does not represent the Jewish people - and a lot of Jewish people are saying this, not me. For Israel to say it represent all Jewish people is like the Islamic Republic of Iran saying it represent all that is Islam and all Muslim people.

Democracy in Israel? For whom? Anyway, not interested in another endless debate.

 

[Value Collector]

It's harder to convince the masses to join you and wage war for money and power... so it always have to be done for justice, freedom, for God.

.

So add some scepticism to the youth, and don't tell them their holy books are infallible, and you will have inoculated them against the charlatans who would abuse there beliefs.

 

[Value Collector]

You guys seriously need to get a life. Posting in here all day every day for months on end is such a waste of time.

.

Not nearly as much time as you have wasted sitting in church.

no one even understands what Christianity is

.

Christians can't even decide on that, every Christian has a different opinion on what Christianity is.

It's all based on perceptions and things they've heard on the grape vine. I'd also argue against the Christianity that you guys are arguing against because I don't believe in that either.

I always ask what you believe in and why, the beliefs you have explained to me in the past are completely unjustified and lead you to have some really antisocial beliefs, that's what I argue against.

Go spend time with family, work on projects. Don't waste your life going around in circles

Go spend time with family, work on projects. Don't waste your life going to church.

 

[SirRumpole]

As the old say goes, war is where old men make plans and young men die carrying it out.

I think that if you look closely at it, most wars, even religious ones, are not done because of religion. Religion is one of the tools politicians, kings and generals use to first recruit then unite and empower soldiers (and terrorists) to go and fight and kill and die for whatever objectives the masters of men have in mind. These objectives, while it might include the establishment of a religion onto the conquered, are always for political, geopolitical advantages and whatever money and resources that flow from those gains.

It's harder to convince the masses to join you and wage war for money and power... so it always have to be done for justice, freedom, for God.

God, unkind as he is, does not care for oil or gas or territory... it's all His, no matter where it is on Earth. But you can't say that if you want to be Masters of War.

Adventure, excitement, being part of a gang/group, revenge against isolationalism and perceived victimisation, power over other people, and with Islam, the prospect of having female slaves running after them is a pretty powerful attraction for those young men that don't yet have the reasoning capacity to realise that the whole adventure thing is likely to get them killed; these motivations have been used to sign young men up for stupid wars like Crimea, Boer and WWI.

I don't think that most of the IS recruits give a damn about the Koran, it's the excuse, the reasons are as above.

 

[FxTrader]

Emotions aside, objectively speaking.. do you think ISIS or any terrorists consider themselves such? No one goes to war thinking they're the bad guys. That's just a fact.

What ISIS members, its collaborators and leaders want is an Islamic Caliphate and the vision is much broader than just Iraq and Syria. The brutal, savage way they have set out to achieve this is justified by their interpretation Islam. Of course they think they are achieving something good, for them. That their actions are plainly evil is quite evident to any objective person that has any interest in peace and social harmony. It's important to acknowledge that some religions and religious beliefs are more poisonous to society than others.

You need to look into Israel and Palestine. It's not as you say it is.

I have "looked into" and read about the Middle East situation for years. I do not claim that the actions of Israel in Palestine are justifiable on moral grounds. However, drawing parallels to ISIS and their actions is just mischievous obfuscation and you know it.

 

[luutzu]

Adventure, excitement, being part of a gang/group, revenge against isolationalism and perceived victimisation, power over other people, and with Islam, the prospect of having female slaves running after them is a pretty powerful attraction for those young men that don't yet have the reasoning capacity to realise that the whole adventure thing is likely to get them killed; these motivations have been used to sign young men up for stupid wars like Crimea, Boer and WWI.

I don't think that most of the IS recruits give a damn about the Koran, it's the excuse, the reasons are as above.

Yea, you have some diehard believers who fight for God and eternal glory (and virgins), most just do it because it pays the bill. I heard that most of the native ISIS recruits joined because ISIS pay some $US300 a month - I'd imagine that's a very good wage living in a war torn region like the ME; same goes for Sunni ex-Iraqi military personnel because the Shiite gov't in Baghdad just don't pay or don't welcome them.

Don't know about Crimea or Boer but heard that most in Europe join WW1 against the Ottoman because they grew up on Homer's the Illiad - fighting where Troy was, where Achille and Hector and what not; the ANZAC join the Navy to see the world then WW1 happen or something.

I remember in the 90s my parents was pretty upset hearing this former South Vietnamese Vice President (and also its Air Marshall) talking about how Communism isn't so bad, how Hanoi is just as Vietnamese as Saigon was and we all should make peace. My parents are all for peace and reconciliation and all that, but they're pretty upset that this dude didn't see that when he ordered his men to battle. Now he said it because his son or daughter is getting married to a high ranking Politburo's kid.

Friends or enemies can switch on a dime, and it's always the young and the poor that suffer and die for it.

 

[luutzu]

What ISIS members, its collaborators and leaders want is an Islamic Caliphate and the vision is much broader than just Iraq and Syria. The brutal, savage way they have set out to achieve this is justified by their interpretation Islam. Of course they think they are achieving something good, for them. That their actions are plainly evil is quite evident to any objective person that has any interest in peace and social harmony. It's important to acknowledge that some religions and religious beliefs are more poisonous to society than others.


I have "looked into" and read about the Middle East situation for years. I do not claim that the actions of Israel in Palestine are justifiable on moral grounds. However, drawing parallels to ISIS and their actions is just mischievous obfuscation and you know it.

Let be perfectly clear (channeling Israel's spokesman here, haha)... I completely agree with that Commandment "Thou shall not kill." I make no exception to that rule. So I'm not excusing what ISIS or what the IDF or Hamas or other good and bad guys do. Let's be perfectly clear about that - all killings are wrong, no matter who does it.

Israel is what they call a colonial settler country - a foreign entity that moves in and start to get rid of the natives. Whatever reason it has for creating Israel is what it is - all nations have and will do it if and when they have the arms and the opportunity.

Does the fact that Israel follow the Old Testament and claim that all Historic Palestine as land God gave to the Hebrews, does that make it different from ISIS who claim whatever it is they claim based on their Prophet Muhammed? Or does being well organised, well armed, well trained, well fed, well PR-ed, killing with drones and jets instead of knives and swords... does that make it more right?

If you take religion out, what Israel is doing is quite insane - insane to its own people, forget about how bad it is for the Palestinians.

Anyway...

 

[bunyip]

Let be perfectly clear (channeling Israel's spokesman here, haha)... I completely agree with that Commandment "Thou shall not kill." I make no exception to that rule. So I'm not excusing what ISIS or what the IDF or Hamas or other good and bad guys do. Let's be perfectly clear about that - all killings are wrong, no matter who does it.

Israel is what they call a colonial settler country - a foreign entity that moves in and start to get rid of the natives. Whatever reason it has for creating Israel is what it is - all nations have and will do it if and when they have the arms and the opportunity.

Does the fact that Israel follow the Old Testament and claim that all Historic Palestine as land God gave to the Hebrews, does that make it different from ISIS who claim whatever it is they claim based on their Prophet Muhammed? Or does being well organised, well armed, well trained, well fed, well PR-ed, killing with drones and jets instead of knives and swords... does that make it more right?

If you take religion out, what Israel is doing is quite insane - insane to its own people, forget about how bad it is for the Palestinians.

Anyway...

Two questions for you.

1. In theory I agree with 'thou shalt not kill', but how about if an axe-wielding madman broke into your home and starting hacking up your family, would you kill him if that was the only way to stop him, and would you then consider your actions were wrong?


2. How do you think the Israelis should respond to Hamas lobbing rockets into Israel to try and kill their people and destroy their country?

 

[DB008]

Religious extremism main cause of terrorism, according to report

Since 2001 religious extremism has overtaken national separatism to become the main driver of terrorist attacks around the world, according to the Global Terrorism Index

Religious extremism has become the main driver of terrorism in recent years, according to this year’s Global Terrorism Index.

The report recorded 18,000 deaths in 2013, a rise of 60% on the previous year. The majority (66%) of these were attributable to just four groups: Islamic State (Isis) in Iraq and Syria, Boko Haram in Nigeria, the Taliban in Afghanistan and al-Qaida.

Overall there has been a fivefold increase in deaths from terrorism since the 9/11 suicide attacks.

The report’s authors attribute the majority of incidents over the past few years to groups with a religious agenda.

While the chart below shows that this varies across region, bear in mind that more than 80% of deaths from terrorism in 2013 occurred in just five countries: Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria and Syria.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/nov/18/religious-extremism-main-cause-of-terrorism-according-to-report

 

[luutzu]

Two questions for you.

1. In theory I agree with 'thou shalt not kill', but how about if an axe-wielding madman broke into your home and starting hacking up your family, would you kill him if that was the only way to stop him, and would you then consider your actions were wrong?


2. How do you think the Israelis should respond to Hamas lobbing rockets into Israel to try and kill their people and destroy their country?

I'm not Gandhi, or Jesus, and turn the other cheek. If someone is about to kill you, you have the right to self-defense, if that mean killing him. I would still consider killing wrong then, but I would find it justifiable - I have no alternative.

But with Israel, they're in the same situation right? It's kill or be kill.

2. Did history began only when Hamas fired its rockets?

When you were at school, did you ever see a skinny tiny 7th grader coming up to a 12th grade football captain and smack him? If they had a fight and you're the school principal, would you believe the 12th grader that he did nothing, that he was trying to talk to the kid and out of nowhere the bleeding nose, broken arm and blacked eyed kid just go terrorist on him. Or would you believe the kid that he is sick of giving up his lunch money and fought back.

Too simplistic?

If Israel want peace, it can have it tomorrow. That's what money and power does - it give you what you want. Just it doesn't give you everything.

 

[bunyip]

Let be perfectly clear (channeling Israel's spokesman here, haha)... I completely agree with that Commandment "Thou shall not kill." I make no exception to that rule.

I'm not Gandhi, or Jesus, and turn the other cheek. If someone is about to kill you, you have the right to self-defense, if that mean killing him. I would still consider killing wrong then, but I would find it justifiable - I have no alternative.

OK. So after stating that you believe in ‘thou shalt not kill’, and claiming that you make no exception to that rule, you’ve now made it clear that you would in fact make an exception to that rule in certain situations.
I’m always amused by people who claim they don’t believe in violence or killing, yet when you press them a little you find out that they wouldn’t hesitate to use force, even lethal force if necessary, to protect themselves or their family in life-threatening situations.
Anyway, fair enough - I think most of us would do the same.

If Israel want peace, it can have it tomorrow. That's what money and power does - it give you what you want. Just it doesn't give you everything.

You still haven't said how you think the Israelis should respond to Hamas trying to kill them and destroy their country by lobbing rockets at them.

 

[SirRumpole]

You still haven't said how you think the Israelis should respond to Hamas trying to kill them and destroy their country by lobbing rockets at them.

How should the Palestinians respond to the continual encroachments of Israeli settlements on the West Bank and Gaza strip ?

 

[Hodgie]

OK. So after stating that you believe in ‘thou shalt not kill’, and claiming that you make no exception to that rule, you’ve now made it clear that you would in fact make an exception to that rule in certain situations.
I’m always amused by people who claim they don’t believe in violence or killing, yet when you press them a little you find out that they wouldn’t hesitate to use force, even lethal force if necessary, to protect themselves or their family in life-threatening situations.
Anyway, fair enough - I think most of us would do the same.

I was at a team building off-site for work recently and amongst other things the MC had us participate in an activity where he asked certain questions and you raise your hand if the answer to that question was yes.

One of the questions he asked was "Would you ever kill another person for any reason?". Other than a few jokers in the room who raised there hand everyone pretty much sat still.

He then asked the question, "If you could travel back in time and kill any person and there are no repercussions for yourself whatsoever would you do it?" With thoughts of the likes of people like Hitler, Stalin and bin Ladin in mind, the majority of the hands in the room shot up quite quickly.

I think that a lot of people will do things that they vow they would never do given the right circumstances. Obviously this hypothetical scenario cannot actually eventuate but I think the point made is still valid. the MC posed a few other questions of similar nature such as "Would you ever rip the wings off a fly?" etc which all resulted in a similar matter to the above.

The exercise was supposed to relate back to business somehow but I forgot the rest of what he said (oops).

 

[Value Collector]

I was at a team building off-site for work recently and amongst other things the MC had us participate in an activity where he asked certain questions and you raise your hand if the answer to that question was yes.

One of the questions he asked was "Would you ever kill another person for any reason?". Other than a few jokers in the room who raised there hand everyone pretty much sat still.

He then asked the question, "If you could travel back in time and kill any person and there are no repercussions for yourself whatsoever would you do it?" With thoughts of the likes of people like Hitler, Stalin and bin Ladin in mind, the majority of the hands in the room shot up quite quickly.

I think that a lot of people will do things that they vow they would never do given the right circumstances. Obviously this hypothetical scenario cannot actually eventuate but I think the point made is still valid. the MC posed a few other questions of similar nature such as "Would you ever rip the wings off a fly?" etc which all resulted in a similar matter to the above.

The exercise was supposed to relate back to business somehow but I forgot the rest of what he said (oops).

Another interesting moral dilemma is the trolley problem,

 

[luutzu]

OK. So after stating that you believe in ‘thou shalt not kill’, and claiming that you make no exception to that rule, you’ve now made it clear that you would in fact make an exception to that rule in certain situations.
I’m always amused by people who claim they don’t believe in violence or killing, yet when you press them a little you find out that they wouldn’t hesitate to use force, even lethal force if necessary, to protect themselves or their family in life-threatening situations.
Anyway, fair enough - I think most of us would do the same.


You still haven't said how you think the Israelis should respond to Hamas trying to kill them and destroy their country by lobbing rockets at them.

I did say I still think it's wrong to kill in self defense. I'd do it if it ever comes to it, and will justify it... but still think it's wrong.

Operation Protective Edge:

Hamas/Palestinian rockets:
- killed 5 Israelis and 1 migrant worker.
- damaged 1 home (rocket hit a roof and landed in the kitchen, family survived with little injuries if I remember right)
- Put pot holes in carparks or farm land.

When Israel goes into Gaza, some 67 of its soldiers died.

Now to the Palestinian side:

- some 2200 Gazan death (400 to 600 of which whom are children);
- estimate 10,000 injured/maimed;
- included in the deaths are some 65 families (grandpa down to cousins, uncles, children)... 65 families were completely wiped out - no more relation, no more bloodline.
- 500,000 or so dislocated;
- some 250,000 homeless;
- Est. $5 billion in damages to housing and infrastructure;
- est. that at current rate of building supplies permitted into Gaza by Israel, would take 20 years to rebuild.
- winter is coming if not already there... let's just hope the 10,000 injured have a hospital and not out living in a tent outside their flattened home.

That "operation" was "disproportionate". Disproportional use of force is a war crime, according the UN and Human Rights peaceniks.

But let say it is justifiable, that rockets were launched into Israel, the dead children were used as human shields; that Hamas forced Israel to kill and that is just painful for Israelis, but justifiable.

What if... what if history and that war did not start at the moment Hamas lobbed its rockets into Israel?

IMMEDIATE CONTEXT:
(you can check these facts)
- Hamas agreed with Fatah to join a Unity Gov't for Palestinians;
- Fatah agreed, Israel don't like and want Western intervention; the US want to see where Unity leads, the EU want to see where that lead... Israel and the Palestinians can now negotiate a peace settlement, end the siege of Gaza etc.
- 3 Israeli youths were kidnapped (let say by Hamas' order), Israeli security and Netanyahu knew the kids were murdered soon after they were kidnapped because one of them called Emergency and gunshots etc. were heard. This fact was sealed from public and a manhunt and search and rescue operations in the West Bank was ordered.
- some 800 to 1000 just released Hamas prisoners were rearrested...
- Hamas lobbed its rocket into Israel, and no more Unity Palestinian party to negotiate with.


------

So it might be best to put some context into these kind of thing.

After WW2, it is understandable to create a completely Jewish state. You can justify that on grounds of self-defense against genocide from another Hitler. But the world has changed a great deal. Jewish people hardly need Israel to protect them; Jewish people around the world are by a large margin tolerated, welcomed, fairly well to do and some are very rich and some are very politically influential and hold some of the highest offices of gov't in most Western powers, notably the US.

The US have Jewish Mayor of NY, Chicago; US Senators, Congressman; Secretary of State; National Security advisors; bankers; billionaires; filmmakers... Trust me, these people can protect both themselves and their Jewish people.

Israel has the 3rd or 6th most powerful military in the world. It is a nuclear armed power. With the possible exception of Iran being a minor problem, Israel is effectively a regional hegemon in the Middle East. It also have a very very powerful friend whose lawmakers and presidents and governors seem to have to visit Israel and kiss its PM's ring if they want a chance at getting into office.

In other words, with the exception of the Palestinians, no one in the world is going to go up to Israel and slap it across the face.

So why do Palestinians do it? They're just suicidal? Don't want to live in peace?

They are occupied. Their land were taken and divided up and given to Israel in 1948... they fought and loss, and ever since 1967 all they want is to create a state of their own on the 20% of land that was theirs. They know they have no chance to regain all of it... just 20% as agreed to by the entire world except Israel and the US.

Is that asking too much?

Now, that once 20% is much less... new settlements, new buffer zones around those settlements; generations of Palestinians living in refugee camps; the 20% of their land are slowly being taken away, all the most arable land and water sources are taken and used by settlers...

And since July this year, more and more Jewish settlements are granted by Israel into East Jerusalem - an area agreed by international community as the future capital of a Palestinian State; its holy site are being being stepped on and there are even plans to build Synagogue on it...

Violence is not going to solve this conflict, definitely not for the Palestinians, and the Palestinians know it. With each war a lot of their people die, after each terrorist attack their family will lose their home and bus to Gaza or other refugee camp, with each war Israel will - for security reasons or otherwise, expand more settlement and annex more land.

So when you deprive people of their dignity, take away all their hope for a better future... can you really blame them when they react with violence? What would you do? Live like dogs?

Max Blumenthal quoted a Palestinian man from Gaza in his recent trip there, the man said:
"Everytime I build my business, they destroy it; Every time I raised by sons, they killed them; Every time I plant new trees, they pulled it up."

How do you do that to people and expect to live in peace.

 

[bunyip]

I did say I still think it's wrong to kill in self defense. I'd do it if it ever comes to it, and will justify it... but still think it's wrong.

Operation Protective Edge:

Hamas/Palestinian rockets:
- killed 5 Israelis and 1 migrant worker.
- damaged 1 home (rocket hit a roof and landed in the kitchen, family survived with little injuries if I remember right)
- Put pot holes in carparks or farm land.

When Israel goes into Gaza, some 67 of its soldiers died.

Now to the Palestinian side:

- some 2200 Gazan death (400 to 600 of which whom are children);
- estimate 10,000 injured/maimed;
- included in the deaths are some 65 families (grandpa down to cousins, uncles, children)... 65 families were completely wiped out - no more relation, no more bloodline.
- 500,000 or so dislocated;
- some 250,000 homeless;
- Est. $5 billion in damages to housing and infrastructure;
- est. that at current rate of building supplies permitted into Gaza by Israel, would take 20 years to rebuild.
- winter is coming if not already there... let's just hope the 10,000 injured have a hospital and not out living in a tent outside their flattened home.

That "operation" was "disproportionate". Disproportional use of force is a war crime, according the UN and Human Rights peaceniks.

But let say it is justifiable, that rockets were launched into Israel, the dead children were used as human shields; that Hamas forced Israel to kill and that is just painful for Israelis, but justifiable.

What if... what if history and that war did not start at the moment Hamas lobbed its rockets into Israel?

IMMEDIATE CONTEXT:
(you can check these facts)
- Hamas agreed with Fatah to join a Unity Gov't for Palestinians;
- Fatah agreed, Israel don't like and want Western intervention; the US want to see where Unity leads, the EU want to see where that lead... Israel and the Palestinians can now negotiate a peace settlement, end the siege of Gaza etc.
- 3 Israeli youths were kidnapped (let say by Hamas' order), Israeli security and Netanyahu knew the kids were murdered soon after they were kidnapped because one of them called Emergency and gunshots etc. were heard. This fact was sealed from public and a manhunt and search and rescue operations in the West Bank was ordered.
- some 800 to 1000 just released Hamas prisoners were rearrested...
- Hamas lobbed its rocket into Israel, and no more Unity Palestinian party to negotiate with.


------

So it might be best to put some context into these kind of thing.

After WW2, it is understandable to create a completely Jewish state. You can justify that on grounds of self-defense against genocide from another Hitler. But the world has changed a great deal. Jewish people hardly need Israel to protect them; Jewish people around the world are by a large margin tolerated, welcomed, fairly well to do and some are very rich and some are very politically influential and hold some of the highest offices of gov't in most Western powers, notably the US.

The US have Jewish Mayor of NY, Chicago; US Senators, Congressman; Secretary of State; National Security advisors; bankers; billionaires; filmmakers... Trust me, these people can protect both themselves and their Jewish people.

Israel has the 3rd or 6th most powerful military in the world. It is a nuclear armed power. With the possible exception of Iran being a minor problem, Israel is effectively a regional hegemon in the Middle East. It also have a very very powerful friend whose lawmakers and presidents and governors seem to have to visit Israel and kiss its PM's ring if they want a chance at getting into office.

In other words, with the exception of the Palestinians, no one in the world is going to go up to Israel and slap it across the face.

So why do Palestinians do it? They're just suicidal? Don't want to live in peace?

They are occupied. Their land were taken and divided up and given to Israel in 1948... they fought and loss, and ever since 1967 all they want is to create a state of their own on the 20% of land that was theirs. They know they have no chance to regain all of it... just 20% as agreed to by the entire world except Israel and the US.

Is that asking too much?

Now, that once 20% is much less... new settlements, new buffer zones around those settlements; generations of Palestinians living in refugee camps; the 20% of their land are slowly being taken away, all the most arable land and water sources are taken and used by settlers...

And since July this year, more and more Jewish settlements are granted by Israel into East Jerusalem - an area agreed by international community as the future capital of a Palestinian State; its holy site are being being stepped on and there are even plans to build Synagogue on it...

Violence is not going to solve this conflict, definitely not for the Palestinians, and the Palestinians know it. With each war a lot of their people die, after each terrorist attack their family will lose their home and bus to Gaza or other refugee camp, with each war Israel will - for security reasons or otherwise, expand more settlement and annex more land.

So when you deprive people of their dignity, take away all their hope for a better future... can you really blame them when they react with violence? What would you do? Live like dogs?

Max Blumenthal quoted a Palestinian man from Gaza in his recent trip there, the man said:
"Everytime I build my business, they destroy it; Every time I raised by sons, they killed them; Every time I plant new trees, they pulled it up."

How do you do that to people and expect to live in peace.

Mate, I didn’t ask for your opinions on the entire Israel/Palestine conflict. I simply asked how you think Israel should respond to Hamas trying to wipe them out and destroy their country by lobbing rockets at them.