I think the pictures are real except for one.Good desktop images.
LOL good pics ..just cant makeout something written on their board though.... does it say 'ever your spirit'?
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LOL good pics ..just cant makeout something written on their board though.... does it say 'ever your spirit'?
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Fantastic thread, this stuff always fascinated me also.
There was a good documentary "the Universe" on the history channel I beleive. Well good for the images, not so great for the information IMO.
I seriously doubt humans can get their head around 'the universe'. There are just too many things we cannot understand (or see), dark matter, black holes etc. Contradicting theories all the time. So interesting to think about, a real mind blowing experience when you start even trying to learn about it and form your own opinions! Really makes you question existence and it's purpose and put things into context!
Here is a good image, it is actually my laptop wallpaper. A picture of the Sombrero galaxy.
Cheers
There was a good documentary "the Universe" on the history channel I beleive. Well good for the images, not so great for the information IMO.
I seriously doubt humans can get their head around 'the universe'. There are just too many things we cannot understand (or see), dark matter, black holes etc. Contradicting theories all the time. So interesting to think about, a real mind blowing experience when you start even trying to learn about it and form your own opinions!
Really makes you question existence and it's purpose and put things into context!Here is a good image, it is actually my laptop wallpaper. A picture of the Sombrero galaxy.
Cheers
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Wysiwyg
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Hi MRC & co., Is that galaxy still there?Since it took (give or take and believe what you will) 30 million light years for that reflection to reach this planet it may well be very different now when we consider light travels pretty quickly and would travel a long way in just 1 year.Let alone 30 million light years.
I know what you mean, comprehension is difficult.With numbers and distances so large it surely gains more probability for a similar planet that creates life.
Ques... are these distances for real?They seem exaggerated or too far to be true.
.
I know what you mean, comprehension is difficult.With numbers and distances so large it surely gains more probability for a similar planet that creates life.
Ques... are these distances for real?They seem exaggerated or too far to be true.
.
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Hi Wysiwyg,
Agreed, it may not be there! Should have said "this is a picture of how the Sombrero galaxy used to look" lol.
I once studied the measurement of these distances with a student of astronomy, though was many years ago now and let it all go after realising I just had NO idea! I think our measurement of their distance, by waves, is somewhat accurate, at least in our terms.
Then again, light bends (we can see star light which is technically, according to our measurements, 'behind' our sun), fastest way to a point is a straight line, so how far has the light actually travelled? Though, these are not the questions that phase me.
What is dark matter, or a black hole, is it simply that with our dimensions, we cannot see it? Is there "the universe" or many, even paralel? Do 'time warps' exist, where people actually time travel? What is a black hole (why don't the laws of physics explain them, are we missing something)? What is inside a black hole? Is it a pathway to a paralel universe, or what? Is 'the universe' expanding (hence one day everything will freeze), and once it expands, will it then contract and crush everything? Or is it simply a 'fixed size' and if so, what is at the 'ends' of the Universe? What was before the big bang? Was there a big bang? Is static on your TV etc the 'noise' of the big bang (heard a theory lately disprooving this theory, lol)? I have even heard a theory that the Universe is actually rotating around a given point, which entirely throws out the laws of physics as we know them and our comprension of them. Though, think this was more of a qualitative theory by academics. It's all been too many years now and I forget half of what I read or what I thought at the time.
What will happen when the Andromeda collides with the Milky Way (even if we escape earth before the sun fries us), will humans have to escape the entire galaxy by that stage, and how will this happen if we can only reach the speed of light (or even slightly faster)? A worm hole, time travel?
What is the point of life considering in all probability, the human race will be wiped out! So much for Archilles and his speech to be remembered in history. We have been around for 50k years in our time, the earth for over 14 billion years, so what small portion of our history even matters in the grand scheme of things? Why are we here then? Happiness? Spreading our seed will ultimately, probably not mean a thing. To be good and to go to heaven? What is good? By whose standards? Is is only perception and norms and values?
Sorry, getting off topic. But you can see how many questions even thinking about this can pose. Ones, which, unfortunately, will probably never be answered!
Agreed, it may not be there! Should have said "this is a picture of how the Sombrero galaxy used to look" lol.
I once studied the measurement of these distances with a student of astronomy, though was many years ago now and let it all go after realising I just had NO idea! I think our measurement of their distance, by waves, is somewhat accurate, at least in our terms.
Then again, light bends (we can see star light which is technically, according to our measurements, 'behind' our sun), fastest way to a point is a straight line, so how far has the light actually travelled? Though, these are not the questions that phase me.
What is dark matter, or a black hole, is it simply that with our dimensions, we cannot see it? Is there "the universe" or many, even paralel? Do 'time warps' exist, where people actually time travel? What is a black hole (why don't the laws of physics explain them, are we missing something)? What is inside a black hole? Is it a pathway to a paralel universe, or what? Is 'the universe' expanding (hence one day everything will freeze), and once it expands, will it then contract and crush everything? Or is it simply a 'fixed size' and if so, what is at the 'ends' of the Universe? What was before the big bang? Was there a big bang? Is static on your TV etc the 'noise' of the big bang (heard a theory lately disprooving this theory, lol)? I have even heard a theory that the Universe is actually rotating around a given point, which entirely throws out the laws of physics as we know them and our comprension of them. Though, think this was more of a qualitative theory by academics. It's all been too many years now and I forget half of what I read or what I thought at the time.
What will happen when the Andromeda collides with the Milky Way (even if we escape earth before the sun fries us), will humans have to escape the entire galaxy by that stage, and how will this happen if we can only reach the speed of light (or even slightly faster)? A worm hole, time travel?
What is the point of life considering in all probability, the human race will be wiped out! So much for Archilles and his speech to be remembered in history. We have been around for 50k years in our time, the earth for over 14 billion years, so what small portion of our history even matters in the grand scheme of things? Why are we here then? Happiness? Spreading our seed will ultimately, probably not mean a thing. To be good and to go to heaven? What is good? By whose standards? Is is only perception and norms and values?
Sorry, getting off topic. But you can see how many questions even thinking about this can pose. Ones, which, unfortunately, will probably never be answered!
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opcorn:
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heck wys - it's like the riddle as your first post, which showed something that happened 240 million years ago!
as per post #14.... they would be simultaneously seeing us .. for the first time - in whatever state we were in 240 million years ago. - in fact if they had a telescope (today) they'd see us for the first time - with some early Triassic dinasaurs, etc .....
Trouble is they were pretty well fried up 240 mill years ago, so only if they'd been wearing asbestos suits then and since etc.
as per post #14.... they would be simultaneously seeing us .. for the first time - in whatever state we were in 240 million years ago. - in fact if they had a telescope (today) they'd see us for the first time - with some early Triassic dinasaurs, etc .....
Trouble is they were pretty well fried up 240 mill years ago, so only if they'd been wearing asbestos suits then and since etc.
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this is where the lines of philosophy and religion meet. there is no reason we can't comprehend the nature of the universe, religion is a crude attempt to do exactly that. gaps in our knowledge are just that, curiousity and technology will keep forging forward.
seriously some of the experiments they are going to do at CERN are real nature of the universe philosophy like stuff. they want to create black holes and find out what causes mass, all these people banging their heads on the flagstones worshipping the great spaghetti monster in the sky are stone age. we might as well worship the sun and at least get more fertility festivals out of the whole deal. the current god is too uptight, bring back bacchus.
wayneL
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I think the problem is a matter of attitude.
Scientific knowledge tends to be dynamic, for obvious reasons.
Religion tends to be static and resists change, again for obvious reasons.
However there is no reason religion can't be dynamic as knowledge increases. The scientific mind may reject old ideas about "God" (for want of a better word), or it may evolve it's idea of what "God" and nature actually are.
BTW These fertility festivals sound like fun; where do I sign up?
A "religious" (again, for want of a better word) event occurred just over the hill from me the other day that was very "un-uptight" http://www.efestivals.co.uk/festivals/stonehenge/
But wandering off topic here.... ciao!
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I would like to think so, though, I am not so sure.
We don't even know what caused the last "mini ice age" just a few hundred years ago on our very own planet, let alone some of the tests they are trying to achieve, with very little success from what I understand.
I still struggle to get my head around the concept of "spacetime".
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religion is too dogmatic, it's very nature is emotional and ordered and hierarchical and requires the many to listen to the few. blah blah behave or else you'll feel bad forever.
philosophy is great though because its a pursuit of logic, not emotion. there's no reason a philosophy can't provide an answer for those emotional questions consciousness throws at us. "God" is such an abstract term you really need to be suspicious of people who use that term absolutely.
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke.
philosophy is great though because its a pursuit of logic, not emotion. there's no reason a philosophy can't provide an answer for those emotional questions consciousness throws at us. "God" is such an abstract term you really need to be suspicious of people who use that term absolutely.
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke.
Wysiwyg
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They are `out there` too.They probably have all the best kept secrets about the visible universe.
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it doesn't matter, what is important is that we are cracking a process.
take climatology and the mini ice age. a climate is a chaotic system, you have all these inputs of pressure and moisture and solar radiation and ocean currents and atmospheric dust and temperature. so when you analyse weather you look at all this fundamental analysis to come up with a probability forecast which usually is right but random (read: unaccounted for) things can happen and bugger things up.
as computers get better (like with the new 1 atom transistor) and all the fields of science keep pouring knowledge into the net, the pieces will slowly fall into place. evolution in progress.
seriously its not the logic side of humanity you need to worry about, that can take us to the stars. its the back half of the brain we need to manage if we're going to keep it going.
wayneL
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Exactly.
But no need not to be adventurous in thinking about the topic and discounting the concept altogether... throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
As MrC points out, there is a lot to get the mind around. Rejecting concepts out of hand can smack of dogma as well, though most of the traditional "religions" are probably about as discredited as you can be.
Many still enjoy the tradition however.
Some events are beyond reason.
I travel to Brisbane and beyond ( from the NSM northern rivers) regularly and the trip takes about 4 hours each way. I had an old friend that lives about half way. I often stopped and had a yarn about old times with a cup of tea. I hadn't stopped for a while, saying to myself "next time". One day recently I was getting near his place and decided I didn't have time so it was "next time" again. Suddenly my car just stopped. Luckily I was almost opposite the NRMA. I got the mechanic to look at the car. He couldn't get it going, suggested an electrical fault. He decided to tow me to an auto electrician a few blocks away. When we got there the auto electrician said the he couldn't look at it for an hour, could I find something to do for that time.
As my friend lived only about 500m away I said yes and my thought was that my conscience had stopped the car and that I was meant to see Harry. When I got to his place his wife was coming out the front gate. She told me Harry was in hospital and not expected to last more than a day or two. I told her about the car and said that as soon as it was fixed I would go and see him. Her reply was that it would not be worth going, he had not recognised any of the family for days and may even be in a coma.
I went back to see if the car was ready. When I got there the car was running and the auto electrician couldn't find anything wrong with it. !!!
I then drove to the hospital and went in and asked for Harry. I was told that he was sleeping and may not wake. I was about to leave when the nurse said that I could go in if I liked. I went into the ward, looked at an unconscious pale man and decided to leave. Before I left I put my hand on his, thinking I was saying goodbye. As I did it he opened his eyes, gave me a good big smile and said;
"hello mate I've been laying here thinking of you. They're about to kick me over the fence, it's that time. I don't know what's there but if it is what I hope for I'll put together a good bunch of horses and cattle and have them ready for both of us to enjoy when you get there"
We chatted for half an hour about old times. I left happy that I had called. His funeral was a few days later.
I don't know an answer. The car never stopped before or after. Harry never again recognised his family. It will always be one of my most precious memories. If there is something "over the fence" it will be an added bonus.
I travel to Brisbane and beyond ( from the NSM northern rivers) regularly and the trip takes about 4 hours each way. I had an old friend that lives about half way. I often stopped and had a yarn about old times with a cup of tea. I hadn't stopped for a while, saying to myself "next time". One day recently I was getting near his place and decided I didn't have time so it was "next time" again. Suddenly my car just stopped. Luckily I was almost opposite the NRMA. I got the mechanic to look at the car. He couldn't get it going, suggested an electrical fault. He decided to tow me to an auto electrician a few blocks away. When we got there the auto electrician said the he couldn't look at it for an hour, could I find something to do for that time.
As my friend lived only about 500m away I said yes and my thought was that my conscience had stopped the car and that I was meant to see Harry. When I got to his place his wife was coming out the front gate. She told me Harry was in hospital and not expected to last more than a day or two. I told her about the car and said that as soon as it was fixed I would go and see him. Her reply was that it would not be worth going, he had not recognised any of the family for days and may even be in a coma.
I went back to see if the car was ready. When I got there the car was running and the auto electrician couldn't find anything wrong with it. !!!
I then drove to the hospital and went in and asked for Harry. I was told that he was sleeping and may not wake. I was about to leave when the nurse said that I could go in if I liked. I went into the ward, looked at an unconscious pale man and decided to leave. Before I left I put my hand on his, thinking I was saying goodbye. As I did it he opened his eyes, gave me a good big smile and said;
"hello mate I've been laying here thinking of you. They're about to kick me over the fence, it's that time. I don't know what's there but if it is what I hope for I'll put together a good bunch of horses and cattle and have them ready for both of us to enjoy when you get there"
We chatted for half an hour about old times. I left happy that I had called. His funeral was a few days later.
I don't know an answer. The car never stopped before or after. Harry never again recognised his family. It will always be one of my most precious memories. If there is something "over the fence" it will be an added bonus.
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Church vs science...
wys, you mention that the Vatican has its own observatory. Putting a meteorite rock collection together - Not bad - only took them 350 years or so to apologise to Galileo
http://www.geocities.com/ganesha_gate/galileo.html
understatement of the year..
the Church's comments on the universe should be taken with a grain of salt "since that is not its area of competence".
I would say that is only one of its areas of incompetence. There are many more of course.
PS You'd think jesus would have explained all this stuff yes? - instead of making us work it out for ourselves ....
ok disciples... gather round ..
see that moon? - well it's one light second away ..
see that sun? - 8 light minutes
nearest star? Proxima Centauri... 4.3 light years .. about 40 million million km if you prefer etc
PS btw, it's almost certain that the world is not flat...
wys, you mention that the Vatican has its own observatory. Putting a meteorite rock collection together - Not bad - only took them 350 years or so to apologise to Galileo
http://www.geocities.com/ganesha_gate/galileo.html
understatement of the year..
the Church's comments on the universe should be taken with a grain of salt "since that is not its area of competence".
I would say that is only one of its areas of incompetence. There are many more of course.
PS You'd think jesus would have explained all this stuff yes? - instead of making us work it out for ourselves ....
ok disciples... gather round ..
see that moon? - well it's one light second away ..
see that sun? - 8 light minutes
nearest star? Proxima Centauri... 4.3 light years .. about 40 million million km if you prefer etc
PS btw, it's almost certain that the world is not flat...
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... and btw,
the old man would like me to tell you that you made a few typos in the Old Testament ...
like where you say ... Day 1 "let there be light"...
and then Day 4 "let there be the sun"
now that day there might have been a lousy internet connection ? - maybe ... who nose..
maybe that burning bush was a marijuana plant ?
but that's not quite the way it happened ok? etc etc
the old man would like me to tell you that you made a few typos in the Old Testament ...
like where you say ... Day 1 "let there be light"...
and then Day 4 "let there be the sun"
now that day there might have been a lousy internet connection ? - maybe ... who nose..
maybe that burning bush was a marijuana plant ?
but that's not quite the way it happened ok? etc etc
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Yes, I agree Wayne.
Being bought up Catholic my entire life (as short as that is), I cannot agree with the concept of religeon. Studying the bible and the history behind it's creation, has just thrown me way off the idea!
That being said, though I do not believe in religeon per se, I think the probability of 'god' creating the Universe, would be on par with a 'big bang' or however else people think it came to be. What came before? Boggles my mind.
Nioka, great story! Problem with this, is how many have their car break down and sit there waiting? With absolutely NO profound 'reason'? Damn me and my mind of probabilities.
On another note, does anybody know the name of that mathematician (was very famous, oh and it wasn't Fibonnaci
) who once described the probability of life on earth forming the way it has, as about as much chance of going into your garage, throwing the tools around and a car appearing? The way the earth was formed, everything from the place in the solar system, distance from the sun, compounds of the earth (iron core shielding us) etc, is just spectacular and mind boggling in it's own right! I mean, scientists still don't even know how water came to be? Astroids? Right, latest is commets. What is the next 'theory'?
I really wonder if we are nearly as complex as we believe ourselves to be and if we are on the right track at all with grasping some of these concepts? I often also wonder, when my dog (who sits beside me all day and all night in my humble little trading room, 'god' bless him) comes and sits next to me, just how smart animals really are? Probably a lot more so than we give them credit for. How much do they really know is going on? Other life forms on our planet are not given the credit, nor respect they deserve IMHO (but then again, I am probably bias, due to my extreme love for animals).
End of my rant
For now. Cheers
Wysiwyg
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A unique experience with energy of a different kind Nioka.
Watching the SETI program on Sunday night, there was mention of Giordano Bruno whom was burned at the stake for herisy.
He may have been a fruity loop as the church representative in the program suggested and also seemingly stubborn from what i have read.A story of The forgotten Philosopher is here and he won`t be getting an apology.
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:topic:
MRC, yep I've been thinking I might teach my dog to sniff the computer - maybe tell me when there's a correction in the market. I'm sure she could do it too.
or "whirlwind going through a junkyard and a jetplane appearing?"
... someone who wants to "spin" the story so that it appears that it all appeared in one foul sweep - or fell swoop if you prefer
mischievous imo
that whirlwind has been blowing for 14 billion years
PS here's a PNG quote
"slowly slowly build the monkey"
or is that
"gently gently catchee monkey"? I forget
wayneL
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Well, there is a perfectly good God/no God thread elsewhere. Let's keep this one on topic.
Just a thought though, belief in "black holes" and "dark matter" requires belief in something nobody can see. Their existence is hypothesized, based on behaviour of other heavenly bodies.
Other scientists contest that they exist at all... electric universe proponents et al.
(IIRC)
Food for thought.
Just a thought though, belief in "black holes" and "dark matter" requires belief in something nobody can see. Their existence is hypothesized, based on behaviour of other heavenly bodies.
Other scientists contest that they exist at all... electric universe proponents et al.
(IIRC)
Food for thought.