20/20...
Do you or do you not support the actions of Jane Fonda during the Vietnam war ???????
There maybe some arguement about what Fonda did in Vietnam... but what is clear just what a traitorous person she is....
Do you support her actions ??
Dr Joseph Douglas Jr – Author “Betrayed - Americas Missing POWs”
Senator McCain seemed to be one of the people that was an obstructionist
who was not interested in the truth coming out
who tried to attack people rather than learn what they had to say
Tracey Usry fmr Chief Investigator , US Senate Minority Staff
At no instance would he ever ever give in and say that there were POWs left behind
and my first question is “How would he know? or not know?”
So that which is reasonable he never exhibited
and I don’t know why. Maybe it’s a guilt complex
Maybe he promised the Vietnamese something
ok - I don’t know what it is
and maybe he actually believed that
that would be the saddest of all
Delores Apodaca Alfono – Chairperson, National Alliance of Families
I mean he was yelling and screaming at me
he had me in tears
Tracey Usry
oh to everybody…
.. he was very rude to me on several occasions
Dr Joseph Douglas Jr
he probably did more harm to the idea of trying to get the truth out than any other single person
through the efforts he did to block the release of classified intelligence dealing with the POW MIA problem
Lynn OShea Dir of Research National Alliance of Families
McCain stepped in and in effect made it harder for us to get documentation
…We were hoping for a massive relase of documentation
Senator Bob Smith (R- NH)
Many many documents were held back, for no reason , and our goal on the commottee was to dump this stuff , declassify it literally to the public – but the US Govt withheld all kinds of information from the committee. I know that for a fact.
Al Santoli, American Foreign Policy Council
Even POW’s who wanted to see their own debriefings were not permitted because of the MCCain regulation
Rep, Bob Dornan (R-CA)
and where did McCain get compliments for doing this – the bureaucrats at the Pentagon
.. and did we need that bill to handle the Scott Spiker case – oh you bet we did!
Al Santoli
it would hold the bureaucrats accountable at law if they lied or withheld information , and he fought tooth and nail to protect those bureaucrats - cos they were protecting him.
Senator Bob Smith
I could never understand that – if someone was guilty of withholding information that would help us to solve the mystery of what happened to an MIA and did it deliberately – why would we not want to preosecute that person
…. I supported it, fought for it hard – in the US Senate and mostly in the Armed Services Committee where we debated it, but …
It was watered down to basically where it was almost worthless
Al Santoli
Now one of the things that happened with that bill is that we were submarined
On the House side we passed it with a pretty much unamimous vote
Rep, Bob Dornan
401 to zero on the House.
with every single Republican who is serving sponsoring it , and about a third of the Democrats.
Al Santoli
On the Senate side we had one person standing in the way of getting in positions that would have been very tough on Govt bureaucrats who didn’t tell the truth – and that one person was Senator John McCain.
3.50s
Cpl Bob Dumas
He didn’t want anybody to check HIS background. wanted to protect his background because a lot of POWs we had in the camp said that he was a collaborator of the enemy. He gave the enemy information they wanted
Dr James Lucier Former US Senate Chief of Staff
What we do know is that when he was there he cooperated with the communist news services in giving interviews that were not flattering to the United States
Tracey Usry
Information shows that he made over 32 tapes of propaganda for the Vietnamese Govt
Certainly you do what you need to do to stay alive
No body would fault anybody for that
but there comes a point in time where enough is enough
Rep, Bob Dornan
He made those transcriptions, and in those transcriptions
I heard a POW who heard them coming into his cell and said
OMG is that Admiral McCain’s son !? is that the Admiral’s son? Is that Johnny?
telling us that our principal targets are schools, orphanages, hospitals, temples, churches
4m45s that was Jane Fonda’s line!.
Where are those transcriptions - believe me they are in the archives of the museum
the bragging military museum in Hanoi
and McCain could not have wanted one of those to turn up in the middle of a presidential race
he knows that , I know that, a few other people know that
and that’s why he went against Bob Dole’s legislation
Cpl Bob Dumas
and he didn’t want nobody looking into his background in the camp
what went on in that camp.
that stuff’s still classified , so nobody can see it
and he just had it classified forever, so nobody will EVER look at it.
Dr James Lucier
that he was given special treatment
that he was put in a room with two other defectors
who were later given special treatment
although I will say to his credit that he refused to be repatriated as a result
Rep, Bob Dornan
and it sounds so good at first
McCain was offered the chance to come home
they called him the Prince, - and he could have...
but nobody ever takes that one step beyond that
If Admiral John McCain II junior – if his son at Lt Senior grade
had accepted this Pricely Status and come home in 1967
while the others would sit there for 5 years
what would the Navy have done with the son of an Admiral
who opted to get special treatment and come home
No Navy career , no house seat, no senate seat
would have been the end of his career
and they were offering him this chance to go home
in one of the 3 groups that came home in 68
they were all collaborators
yep except for Don Diego
and McCain calls em this
the slipperies, the slimies , and the sleezies
I once forgot one of those names and he refreshed my memory
and that meant that he would have become a slimey a sleezie and a slippery
ruining his career
so what I’m saying is :
yes he choose to say - but did he have an alternative ?
if he ever wanted to have a life - and what would it have done to his father
Dr Joseph Douglas Jr
and his activities were sufficiently consistent and widespread in opposing efforts to learn the truth
that he was written up in a number of articles as the Manchurian Candidate on this issue.
Rep, Bob Dornan
that in Hanoi he saw McCain turn red in the face
he even used the term Rumpelstiltskin - jumping up and down in place in a rage
If you release ANY of these records that you have here in Hanoi
on me or the other POW’s, you will NEVER get diplomatic recognition
Tracey Usry
McCain may have been an expert on being a POW, but he was by no means an expert on the POW issue.
Dr James Lucier Former US Senate Chief of Staff
What we do know is that when he was there he cooperated with the communist news services in giving interviews that were not flattering to the United States
Tracey Usry fmr Chief Investigator , US Senate Minority Staff
Information shows that he made over 32 tapes of propaganda for the Vietnamese Govt
Certainly you do what you need to do to stay alive
No body would fault anybody for that
but there comes a point in time where enough is enough
So my question to you superfly - and gg I guess...
do you or do you not support the actions of McCain in making those 32 propaganda tapes ?
At the time I guess she believed what she was doing
- she just happened to be ahead of her time, since these days everyone has come to better understand the Vietnam situation.
The "Domino theory" (which we all believed at the time - indoctrinated as we were) was completely false obviously.
Pronto, You think only "oldies" think we've changed our thoughts about Vietnam?Who is 'everyone', other than ageing lefties who couldn't then and even now have never understood Vietnam? Fonda was a shallow exhibitionist who would have been hanged for her criminal stupidity in another time (as William Joyce AKA 'Lord Haw Haw' was after WWII).
This is the conventional wisdom which is, as usual, wrong. Ask the flourishing nations of Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Phillipines, Indonesia et al if the Domino Theory was 'wrong'. It was the US and allied engagement in Vietnam which allowed their fledgling market economies to develop without the expected Red stab in the back. How ironic that Vietnam is now moving the same way, but 40 years later.
A retired colonel decorated for his efforts during the Bolshevik revolution enjoys his life in the country with his young wife and dazzling little daughter until their idyllic peace is rippled by the arrival of a man from their past who, unknown to them, is an agent for the Secret Police. Nikita Mikhalkov's powerful portrait of viciousness during the Stalin era won the 1994 Academy Award for Best Foreign Film.
http://www.sonypictures.com/classics/burntbysun/misc/interview.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Mikhalkov
Mikhalkov's most famous production to date, Burnt by the Sun (1994), was steeped in the nervous atmosphere of Stalinist purges. The film received the Grand Prize at Cannes and the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film, among many other honours. As of 2000, Burnt by the Sun was the top grossing movie to come out of Eastern Europe. Filming for a sequel is under way.
AN INTERVIEW WITH
NIKITA MIKHALKOV
Your film takes place over the course of one summer day in 1936. Why did you choose this period of time?
My desire to make this film came in response to all the accusations throughout history brought upon my country, accusations made without realizing what was happening at the time. What right do we have, looking with the hindsight of the 1990's, to analyze any of the past eras and condemn them for what happened then? In 1917, the Bolsheviks condemned all that had preceded their revolution, and likewise the "New Bolsheviks" of the 1991 uprising have decided to portray anything that happened after 1917 as horrible.
With this film, I am not looking to judge an era, I am only trying to show through a tragic perspective, the charm of a simple existence: of children continuing to be born, of people loving each other, living their life's moments, and having faith that all that was happening around them was for the best. People cannot be blamed for believing, but one can blame those who misled them. ……. These are the reasons I have tried to understand this era. I am trying to say that we have all been victims and actors of what has happened, victims of what we created.
…..
In the charm and sweetness of living in the Dacha, your characters taste a happiness illuminated by a "burnt sun."
Yes, they all live under a "burnt sun" because they have destroyed all the suns that had illuminated the country for thousands of years. Before the Russian Revolution, God represented the law, the only law which Russians accepted, and they only seemed to follow those laws written by men of faith. After the revolution, the Bolsheviks understood how to use this religious vigilance of the Russian people. They realized they could replace the monarchy and the church with power embodied in the cult of one man, Stalin. Hence people held the socialist system in the same light as the church.
How could people have constructed factories and miles of highways in two weeks? People would die on the building sites in order to construct Communism. We heard many slogans over the years, and millions of rubles were spent on the production of flags and parades, but this energy used itself up. Long after the longwinded speeches, one hundred kilometers from Moscow, the flame of belief burned out. Violence was the only alternative to keep the nation's motor running.
Nobody is either innocent or guilty in my film. Apparently, Stalin was the evil genius, but he was created by man's hands. The scriptures say that man must not create idols to worship. People did not listen, and they created an idol, and they in turn became its victims. ….
These are symbols of the revolution and Stalin's grand purges. At the beginning of the film, the maid reads an article in the paper dedicated to these fireballs that are hitting anything that moves, the Colonel is a strong and powerful man, a little too energetic for his own good. He starts to act differently than others, taking risks. Hence he is terminated for no apparent reason, only that he had stood out. This was truly a characteristic sign of the revolution in Russia.
…
Yes, omissions, lies, and suspicion had become instinctive thoughts and acts for Russians. This "half-truth" is one of the themes of the movie.
The film shows that the system manipulates the emotional lives and affects the inner personality of the individual.
………
Serguei reproaches Dimitri for having left because he was scared. He thinks that there are two possible solutions and you have to choose one. In Russia it is often said "don't fear your enemy, the worst he can do is kill you. Don't fear your friend, the worst he can do is betray you. But fear indifference. Because by its silence, its tacit accord, it can kill you and betray you. " Serguei doesn't impose a decision on his wife, he gives her the freedom to choose between staying with him or going off with Dimitri.
……..
Today it is very important to bear witness because the young ones do not understand. Nadia, my eight year old daughter, for example, doesn't comprehend the word "Soviet." She even had a hard time pronouncing it. It is not about bragging to them about the charms of the Soviet Union. I think the sun rises no matter what the ruling powers may be, but you have to warn, inform of the aptness of another sun...it's not about choosing what we think the best moments of our history are. You have to realize that there are historic moments, but also shames, injustices, indignations, and humiliations. You have to understand clearly that we are all responsible, that certain people among us must carry the weight of this responsibility. But it doesn't help anything to point fingers and say "this one is wrong." It is not possible for me as a Russian to say that "this is good and that is not." As Pushkin said, "That would be like trying to explain harmony by algebraic calculations." In Russia, a thief can give his shirt to a stranger. This stranger can then rob a house, but if the house catches on fire, he will do everything he can to save the sleeping baby. Good and bad are intertwined. That is the harmonious reality and paradox of Russia.
Why did you take on the role of the Colonel Serguei Petrovitch Kotov?
I decided to play this role for the unique reason of helping the performance of my daughter, Nadia. I thought that at my side, it would be easier for her to be natural and spontaneous, certain scenes being especially delicate on an emotional level. Nadia revealed herself to be an amazing acting partner. She can work 18 hours a day without ever complaining. Nadia had no idea of the story in advance. We played each scene without her knowing what happened in the next one.
…….
The truck lost on the road seems to be a metaphor for the present situation in Russia. On a broader scope, what contemporary reading can one make of your film?
Presently, the reform initiatives can seem to be like a "burning sun" because they are not on a nationwide scale; they are conceived with the mentality of a prefect and not the head of a state. We rejected everything without saying what could have been positive. I think that Russia must look back, rediscover what is right and good in its past and find its foundations again. It is necessary to peel away the successive layers, clean up. But "Burnt By the Sun" is not a film about nostalgia, on the contrary it turns toward the future. I want to warn the viewers instinctively by disturbing them with feeling. "Burnt By the Sun" is simply a film about life. About our life in 1936 which was both wonderful and miserable. About our life now, which could be miserable, but also magnificent, like a summer day in the sun with a light breeze blowing through the trees, and love...
Pronto, You think only "oldies" think we've changed our thoughts about Vietnam?
Assuming you weren't there , I'm guessing you're guessing.
Guess I have to ask you too Pronto (along with Superfly) - what do you think of McCain doing a stack (32+) of propoganda tapes for the Communist Vietnamese Govt. (?)
Hindsight 20/20 said:
Well, you guessed wrongly. I was there and more than once in different capacities.
In the matter of McCain, you omitted the word 'alleged'. If it is true (and I have no way of knowing) I would set it within the known context.
McCain was singled out for 'special attention' because of his father's position. The severity of his beatings has left his arms permanently damaged.
I suggest, dear 20/20, that we both might have to experience something like that personally, before either of us passed judgement on another man's breaking point.
Meanwhile, the unlovely Jane Fonda (who, incidentally - but on the public record - had ribs removed to maintain her bulimia-acquired figure) was there voluntarily and (unfortunately) was never tortured.
1. hey I'm not an apologist for Jane Fonda (nor an expert on her activities)1. Ahead of her time !! .. disgraceful
2. They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the
> world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece
> of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When
> paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line,
> shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets
> like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you
> grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent
> captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her
> their sliver of paper.
>
> She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the
> line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked
> disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge and
> handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the
> subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four but
> he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions
> that day.
>
During this visit she also visited American prisoners of war (POWs), and brought back messages from them to their families. ......
The POW camp visits also led to persistent stories—decades later circulated widely on the Internet and via email—that the POWs she met had spat on her, or attempted to sneak notes to her which she had then reported to the North Vietnamese, leading to further abuse. However, a study by Snopes.com, which interviewed many of the alleged victims, found these allegations to be false .[16]
In April 1970, Fred Gardner, Fonda and Donald Sutherland formed the FTA tour ("Free The Army", a play on the troop expression "F**k The Army"), an anti-war road show designed as an answer to Bob Hope's USO tour. The tour, referred to as "political vaudeville" by Fonda, visited military towns along the West Coast, with the goal of establishing a dialogue with soldiers about their upcoming deployments to Vietnam. The dialogue was made into a movie (F.T.A.) that contained strong, frank criticism of the war by service men and women. It was released in 1972.[11]
In the same year, Fonda spoke out against the war at a rally organized by Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. She offered to help raise funds for VVAW, and, for her efforts, was rewarded with the title of Honorary National Coordinator.[12] On November 3, 1970, Fonda started a tour of college campuses on which she raised funds for the organization. As noted by the New York Times, Fonda was a "major patron" of the VVAW.
In a 1979 appearance at the National Press Club in Washington, DC, she was asked about her past praise for Newton and won laughter and applause for her response: "I've said a lot of off-the-wall things in my life. All I can say about that is I was naive and utterly wrong."
In Vietnam, Fonda was photographed seated on an anti-aircraft battery used against American aircrews.[14] She also participated in several radio broadcasts on behalf of the Communist regime, asking US aircrews to consider the consequences of their actions. In her 2005 autobiography, she states that she was manipulated into sitting on the battery, and claims to have been immediately horrified at the implications of the pictures. Fonda says that it was not what was in her heart at all, and wasn't the reason why she was even there. She was there to film evidence of the Nixon Administration's plan to blow up the dikes (a plan that Fonda says "Johnson, to his credit decided not to do"), and the lie the administration had been giving to the public, that troop returns were imminent. She expressed regret for her actions many times over the years, but some Americans remain hostile to her. "I've learned that a picture does not capture what was actually in your heart."
Pronto said:3. Well, you guessed wrongly. I was there and more than once in different capacities.
4. In the matter of McCain, you omitted the word 'alleged'. If it is true (and I have no way of knowing) I would set it within the known context.
Rep, Bob Dornan
He made those transcriptions, and in those transcriptions
I heard a POW who heard them coming into his cell and said
OMG is that Admiral McCain’s son !? is that the Admiral’s son? Is that Johnny?
telling us that our principal targets are schools, orphanages, hospitals, temples, churches
4m45s that was Jane Fonda’s line!. (
Where are those transcriptions - believe me they are in the archives of the museum
the bragging military museum in Hanoi
and McCain could not have wanted one of those to turn up in the middle of a presidential race
he knows that , I know that, a few other people know that
and that’s why he went against Bob Dole’s legislation
Jane Fonda (who, incidentally - but on the public record - had ribs removed to maintain her bulimia-acquired figure) ....
Propaganda is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience.
Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.
Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media is a book by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky, first published in 1988.
Presenting an analysis its authors call the "propaganda model", the book argues that since mass media news outlets are now run by large corporations, they are under the same competitive pressures as other corporations. According to the book, the pressure to create a stable, profitable business invariably distorts the kinds of news items reported, as well as the manner and emphasis in which they are reported.
This occurs not as a result of conscious design but simply as a consequence of market selection: those businesses who happen to favor profits over news quality survive, while those that present a more accurate picture of the world tend to become marginalized.
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/vanities/ribs.asp
Pronto ... As for the rib removal, snopes.com would suggest that its false. It's my guess that much like Superfly's story about Fonda passing over the secret notes to the Vietnamese jailers... that it's all designed to achieve "an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented" - but I'm only quoting snopes.com ok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
My barber's name is Ali - and he charges like 40 thieves and all.... I heard from my barber that she (Hanoi Jane) was waisted and thats good enough for me, it has to be true.
... In the matter of McCain, you omitted the word 'alleged'. If it is true (and I have no way of knowing) I would set it within the known context.
McCain was singled out for 'special attention' because of his father's position. The severity of his beatings has left his arms permanently damaged.
I suggest, dear 20/20, that we both might have to experience something like that personally, before either of us passed judgement on another man's breaking point. .
For 20/20. Thank you for your comments. I give up; you're right and anyone who doesn't agree with your o-so-predictable views is 'wrong'.
pronto said:You insist on using every topic as a vehicle for a cut and paste, anti-American polemic, and I for one have had enough. Bye!
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