Point & Figure Charting - secret weapon?

motorway · 6 January 2009

tech/a said:
M/W

What are the numbers on the chart and the Bars to the right.

Months of the Year --- 1 is Jan through to 9 is Sep
A is Oct B is Nov C is Dec and 1 is now Jan 2009

What part do they play in your analysis?

A very Important part see the two charts

It appears with the 45 degree lines that we are at an important point now?
Yes, Very possible major Turning Point

P&F has dynamic time scale = the intrinsic movement

The charts really do have velocity and acceleration.

Because the waves of buying and selling do !

A sneaking Bull is exactly that
note the 2005 chart The months prior crowd together
Some months can not even get posted

The waves have receded -- built down
( so look at a 10pt chart like I am now )

Look at the spacing of the months current...

What drives a wide fast and active market and what does it facilitate ?

What drives a narrow slow and dull market and what does it facilitate ?

This is tape reading
P&F is a record of the dynamic of the tape

It is the actual voice of the tape ( The market )

I will update the 10 pt chart later
We have had a good move up from the congestion
and now are at important test

Also Time is important in comparative studies
and Relative Strength Studies..

There are (only ) waves of buying and selling

They have a price range , They have volume , and they have Time ( as Duration )... They reveal what we need to know ...

All you know about what you call VSA is same principles as P&F

eg looking for absorption on the 10 pt chart

Because the chart has an objective scale ( squared grid )
relationships remain as we zoom in or out
The trend lines do really measure acceleration and velocity

congestion is really congestion etc

A Wyckoff trader ( at least this one ) uses P&F like you use EW
in conjunction with VSA....

principles like impulse confluence etc very similar..

motorway

motorway · 7 January 2009

The pattern form the 2003 lows is a very significant and strong pattern
Dupire ( back in the thread ) gives such a pattern a 90% probability of moving higher...

Ok to the 10 pt chart why now

so far

The volatility on the large scale
is the container of the volatility on the smaller scale

Trends last as long as counts are generated, activated and fulfilled

These charts will reveal
when the "waves" build down (RDW)
and we should follow the action down to 50pt 25pt 10pt
even 5pt charts

Box counting is a way of sampling an image to find the rate of change in complexity with scale, as well as measures of heterogeneity or lacunarity.

Empty spaces
inform us that forces
of a larger scale
are active and impacting on the scale we are observing

Ok 10 pt chart Now
with count/ objective of the pattern 3750 ( Fulfilled )

10 pt chart as previous eg in Sept

Empty Spaces !

This is first 10 pt pattern to make sense
waves have built down now they will build UP

( magnitude not direction )

The three Wyckoff Qualities

range volume time

need to be judged by the 4th

Position
this = the close of a bar
or the last box on the figure chart

HLC
There is no open

because the open is only at the start

That the price of a stock reflects or crystallizes everything known about or bearing on from the first sale on the Exchange (or Prior) up to the present time.

The present is the close on the last bar you are looking at
or the last box that has been posted/filled

bar chart effort vs result ( volume in vertical dimension )
figure chart cause Vs effect ( horizontal dimension )

Both are tools to analyse
the four qualities
of the WAVES

Trade Moves
Not time frames
why trade 10 pt moves
when there are 100 pt

Why look for 100pt moves
when there are only 10 pt ones

When looking to go long
watch Esp the Down waves

motorway

motorway · 10 January 2009

A couple of Books to consider for those interested in P&F

Books that get into the How of reading a chart
( demand supply... Story of the tape unfolding )

and I think a good starting point ( these are older books )

I think they should be Should be read in this order

1)
DeVilliers and Taylor on Point and Figure Charting
by Victor DeVilliers and Owen Taylor

This is the two volume set
reproduced By Donald Mack ( it is not the 1933 booklet or later abridged versions )... Was expensive but I see it is now available in paperback.

Victor de Villiers was a close associate of Richard Wyckoff . De villiers became a P&F purest.

Where RDW thought (insisted ) they were both ( + Bar charts ) of equal importance .

2)
Second book is technically out of print
but new copies seem always to be available
and should not be expensive.

Study Helps in Point and Figure Technique by Alexander H. Wheelan

----

S&P500 chart 2% x 1 reversal

The chart itself defines the work has it unfolds as either Accumulation or Distribution

ground gained
ground lost
congestion & thrust/stride , active ( speeding up ) dull ( slowing down )
trend & reversal

action. reaction... depth of reaction

ceilings floors , angle of movement.. empty spaces
etc

As the Chart "flows" it reveals the changing technical position ( that it is flowing through but also creating, eg like a rivers relationship to the landscape )

A person watching the tide coming in and who wishes to know the exact spot which marks the high tide, sets a stick in the sand at the points reached by the incoming waves until the stick reaches a position where the waves do not come up to it, and finally recede enough to show that the tide has turned.
This method holds good in watching and determining the flood tides of the stock market.

What the waves do and don't do. ( eg look at the counter moves/reactions )

Important point to grasp is the chart does not have to move
and never sideways esp sideways
the action at the top
the action now

sideways is always risk to something and someone
and new opportunity for someone else

sideways in particular reveals a changing technical position

eg in de Villiers the analysis of the 1929 top...

that is why ( It can and does stop )
P&F is a superior map of volatility

motorway

Market prices move in jumps,
where physical time is a poor measure of significance

motorway · 10 January 2009

For instance see the number of (Xs) postings in the S&P500 chart ?

( and their changing behavior but esp the number & width )

The year 06 to 07 ! 07 to 08 and 08 to 09

Ok very different to a BAR chart ?

Now read part of this research paper from SVQuant

Silicon Valley Quantitative Advisors (SVQuant) is a proprietary trading firm located in Silicon Valley, California.

Our technology is based on proprietary techniques that are based on over a decade of intense research

2.2 Market Time Data
Traditional and commonly used forecasting models and many technical analysis
indicators assume equally spaced data on a physical time scale.

This is not an
ideal situation since it has been shown from the intra-day and intra-week analysis,
performed by others (Olsen & Associates MÃ¼ller 1990) and High Frequency Finance
(Levitt 1997), that there are certain times of day or the week that are more important than
others. ( Market Time tm )

Market Time lets the actual traded instrument determine what the time scale is.

This allows the
time scale, measured in physical time, to expand and contract based on market activity.
A
forecasting model or technical indicator will update itself more when activity is high and
less when it is low.

This expansion and contraction allows techniques to adapt to the
market by adapting the data fed into them. Making linear methods in Market Time
actually nonlinear in physical time since the mapping form physical time to Market Time
is nonlinear.

This idea in not new , and has been proposed by numerous authors going
back to Mandelbrot and Taylor in 1967 and more recently has been used by Dacorogna et.
al. (1993) and Ghysels & Jasiak (1995).

To map from physical time to Market Time we enlarge the active periods and shorten the
less active periods. Volatility and other proprietary measures based on price are used as
the definition of activity for this transformation.

SO ???

Well this is P&F charting

So why do it ( and why from 1881 did people do it ) ?

SVQuant Find :

We demonstrate that by using this
new data series in technical trading indicators and rules the performance of these
techniques can be greatly improved.

This improvement is attainable to both model traders
or to traders that use technical analysis as part of the decision making process.

In the daily data realm we extend the principal of Market Time Data under the constraints
imposed by many end-of-day data users. Using three different trading techniques we
demonstrate that Market Time Data can improve the bottom line performance by
increasing returns and reducing drawdowns.

motorway

motorway · 16 January 2009

We demonstrate that by using this
new data series in technical trading indicators and rules the performance of these
techniques can be greatly improved.

Among their findings ..For example making use of support and resistance ..

They conclude with a very strong statement

Summary

Market Time Data can improve technical analysis at intraday and daily frequencies

Improvements in trading can be made by changing data alone

Should look at changing data before looking at switching techniques

IE-

Standard Methods and New Data
vs.
New Methods and Standard Data

Eg Support and Resistance on a Point and Figure chart
vs Support and Resistance on a Bar Chart ( or anything else )

Remember their market time data = intrinsic time
= the flow of the P&F

OK... The old books are valuable because the fellows who wrote them
were not just writing about the misbehavior of markets

But were The Misbehaviour itself and sought to profit from it..

They knew all about intrinsic time because they were "tape readers"

Activity and Volume unfolds
It only misbehaves when seen in terms of the ticking clock

( when you use VSA what are the focal points VSA = tape reading too )

Some charts

Shanghai
S&P

Thrusts
halfway points ( and halfway points of those etc )

( law of proportion )

The 45 degree movement
( law of 50% )

congestion + empty spaces=
pattern ( some nice apexes )

active -dull ( coming or going eg alighting like a feather on support ))

All this is implied ( and often stated )

even way back pre 1900

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...all+street&source=gbs_search_s&cad=0#PPA42,M1

page 42&43

motorway

motorway · 8 February 2009

Looking for Shanghai to breakout Monday

on the 100 pt chart ( valid upside targets )

Also the 50 pt ( white spaces make patterns more powerful
because they point to larger scale forces ) to look inside the 100 pt

RIO too after all it is a Shanghai Stock also

dyor

motorway

motorway · 8 February 2009

That pattern on RIO
is a strong one...

We do not filter to conceal but to reveal

We have levels of magnification
because there are scales of magnitude

We can filter by price , by volume and by time

In P&F, though it appears that price is filter

It is really the flow of prices ( traded prices ) that is the filter

Hence time is what is really being filtered

We duck when the punch is thrown regardless of the timeAll things alive are non linear

The secret to anything is knowing the correct time..
When the forced moves unfold

Markets continually get into positions of forced moves
At the right Time they just fall over or soar up

This Time is non linear

Volume and flow ...

I saw on another forum the linking of TA to signal processing
moving averages as low by pass filters etc

But it was all linear... No one using the techniques would ever duck until after the punch was thrown and in most cases LANDED..

Yet a punch is a forced move it has a preparation it Unfolds...

like standing a ruler on its end all it can to is fall over
just like the Stock market did.
When the time comes ... The non linear time >>

Many applications of signal processing deal with processing an input signal and producing an output signal

eg a Bar Chart or a Point and Figure Chart----Then various indicators derived from these

eg Trend line - Moving average

A common scenario occurs when a signal is transmitted through a channel which corrupts it with noise. Consequently, the receiver must attempt to reconstruct the original signal as closely as possible from the corrupted one.

In general, this is a difficult problem, especially if the receiver has no knowledge of the signal or noise characteristics or statistics. However, in many practical situations, the statistics of the noise are known.

For instance, if it is known that the noise is modeled by an additive Gaussian process, then a linear filter is known to be optimal.

This optimality result is one of the primary reasons that linear filters have been a primary tool throughout the history of signal processing. Other reasons for this are that linear filters are well understood and they have some elegant theoretical properties. Their simplicity follows mainly from the linearity property.

Besides this, linear filters offer acceptable performance in many situations.

Linear = fixed time scale = a Bar chart

Nevertheless, in many instances it is impossible to find an acceptable linear filter, such as when noise is non-additive or is non-Gaussian. ( Stock Market ) For example, it is well known that linear filters can remove additive high frequency noise as long as the signal and the noise do not overlap in the frequency domain.

Sometimes the "noise" is the signal.

In signal processing , the signal often contains meaningful high frequency components, such as edges and fine details ( turning points major & minor ).

A linear lowpass filter, ( A Bar chart a Moving average on a Bar Chart ) if applied to such a signal, would blur these sharp edges and details ( coarse lag ) thus producing unacceptable results, so nonlinear filters must be used.

Price distributions do not follow the expected Gaussian bell curve but are fat tailed with dramatic variations four times greater than “what they should
have been.” And for extremely short intervals of time price extremes were
even larger: up to 10 times the predictions of the classical model. ( Richard Olsen )

Non-linear = dynamic time scale = a Point and Figure chart.

motorway

I have adapted this from this link
A good description of non linear filters

http://personal.systemsbiology.net/ilya/NONLINEAR.htm

noise is signal / signal is noise
depending on the Time

motorway · 8 February 2009

page 39

http://www.mta.org/eweb/docs/Issues/08 - 1980 May.pdf

page 33

http://www.mta.org/eweb/docs/Issues/51 - 1999 Winter.pdf

Surprising close to accurate history of Practitioners
and how close the connections

Ancient babylon 2twocents ) Green(e?)/Hoyle/Klein/Wyckoff-----------------------------> Sexsmith / de villiers--------> Taylor----> Wheelan

And others forgotten whose efforts have been reinvented.

Also Edmund Tabell ( Richard Wyckoff's Grand Nephew )---> Anthony Tabell----- >Kenneth Tower

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,811089,00.html

on to the moderns as mentioned in the thread

eg Richard Olsen scale of markets shocks in intrinsic time..

Why did it evolve as it did ?

because it never strayed away from the reality of the tape
When the tape moved There was a mark to be put down
when it did not there was NOTHING..

After enough marks recorded there was the voice of the market ( Wyckoff's CM )
Recorded in it's intrinsic time and rhythm

Really the Song of Composite MAN ..

Wyckoff Went to work in Wallstreet 1888 So any attempt to understand
the practise or the history of P&F (or a lot else )
without understanding something of Wyckoff and his method

Is very incomplete imo.....................

What people understand as P&F is a particular trading system..
And even here 3 box reversal charts and even the use of X and Os date way back

As charts from the 1920's reveal

motorway

Many years ago my attention was directed by eminent market authorities, to the merits of points and figures as a logical, basic and true method of recording stock price movements. From such records, the resulting harmonious patterns, and the indisputable evidence of countless past performances, it was claimed by these respected authorities that here indeed was to be found a dependable clue to the future price path of American securities so eagerly sought by investors and traders all over the world.

For the purpose of developing a logical aid to market operations, I tried other methods and consulted practically every known writer, guide, and authority in the financial field at that time. These efforts were finally rewarded when at last the Point and Figure Method was developed to such an extent as to be one of the most valuable aids of my vocation.

In my professional work of writing about, and advising on the subjects of investing and trading, I relied upon a fund of knowledge derived from reading, studying, and practical trading experience.

A long and intensive study of points and figures as a basis for methodical operations followed. The more I investigated their merits, the more convincing became the proof that price movements do not "just happen." I soon found, to my delight and amazement, that this method filled the need for short and long term market operations. Here, at my disposal were sharper tools, precision instruments, dependable laboratory methods. Here was the solid basis of scientific method upon which hundreds of millions of dollars had assuredly been staked, over and over again, in the quarter of a century or more preceding my introduction to the method. Like Archimedes, I was able to say "I have found it!"

The Point and Figure Method, as a plan or background for investing or trading operations, is herein described in its theoretical phases and practical applications. The subject is capable of endless discussion, illustration and variation. Your time will be spared, however, for I hope to compress the gist of the method into this work. I desire to provide the student with this new working tool, which should enable him to operate, as do the insiders themselves, profitably and intelligently.

This method, if properly understood and mastered, should go a long way towards fortifying the serious investor or trader in his commitments, and preventing recurrence of the losses of the 1929-1933 era.

It was never necessary to accept such a defeat in finances or morale, marketwise, as the majority have experienced in the last major cycle, which had two distinct phases and culminations--the climax of June 1932,--and the anti-climax of March 1933. Both were anticipated by the Point and Figure Method.

The Point and Figure Method is complete in itself. If no other data or guide to market price movements were available, or if the selection of a single plan as the basis of anticipating stock price movements became imperative to the exclusion of all others, I would earnestly recommend the serious consideration of this inside Method as most reliable.

Accept then, this well-tried and proven guide and Method, with the author's endorsement of its practical value. It is a substantial segment of the sum and substance of tested practices in price path appraisement. It is highly valued by men, organizations, institutions and interests who know its worth.

Victor De Villiers 1933

De Villiers chart from early 1930s

motorway · 15 February 2009

METHOD IS SUPERIOR TO INSIDE INFORMATION
Since it is the purpose of all market analysis to determine the balance between
the forces of supply and demand, we seek a means of accurately measuring those
forces.

Whether demand be on the part of the well-informed insiders, stock
sponsors, manipulators, or the consensus of opinion; whether it be one or more
of the foregoing groups, or whether it result from sufficient outside public participation,
it will bring about the same results on our Point and Figure charts.

By means of the use of the Point and Figure Method, anyone who will devote sufficient
time to the mastery of its principles can place himself in possession of the
knowledge that will put him on an equal footing with the influential forces,
whether they be insiders or outsiders.

No basis for a movement in any stock can be completed without leaving definite indications in its price path together with
their logical implications as the action of the stock traces its movements clearly
on our Point and Figure Charts.
Victor De villiers

RIO

1 x 2% chart

Both log and Linear charts have their advantages ( and differences )

The two moving averages are just a way of measuring

The increase in detail with increase in magnification

ie ... This 2% chart reveals more information than the 4% chart does

Some De villiers pointers on his 1930's chart above

SUPPLY EQUALS DEMAND
The full fulcrum develops at the point where the center of gravity shows the balancing
of the forces of supply and demand.

A down trend channel formed prior to the fulcrum point indicates that the
supply of stock exceeds the demand. At the fulcrum point, the forces begin to
balance. After the first rally where the reaction holds above the previous base
level, equilibrium is regained and a new up trend channel is in process of being
established.

Here, demand begins to overcome supply, and a catapult point
eventually develops. At the catapult point, demand has overcome supply, and
the advance to substantially higher levels begins.

What both charts show
is that supply was overcoming demand
to the extent that prices tanked

Finally demand meets supply and there is a climax and liquidation

( The 2pt chart maybe clearer.. But the majority sold out at the low prices )

For every seller there is a buyer

So in a few blinks the technical position totally changes..

Why--> because it can not go up, is not going up to go up

Till after "they" sell

It is difficult to over-emphasize the importance of studying the technical position, particularly when making a speculative commitment.
Richard Wyckoff

“One of the few flat statements you can make about the stock market is that any price trend will eventually be carried to excess.”
P&F Chartist
John W. Schulz

The RIO chart

reveals

That

Equilibrium has been regained and a new up trend channel is in process of being
established. Here, demand begins to overcome supply---

Victor De Villiers

This is the first touch of the upper channel since the actual top .

process of being important to note.. nothing certain all is flux...
But How many of the best 10 days of gains have been missed from the top ?

These 10 days that if you miss you never make up ?
The chart says that a lot of people hung on so as not to miss them
only to sell out at the lows... What good did it do them ?

Wyckoff teaches that the most important thing anyone can know about a market or an individual issue is its trend and the position that it occupies in the trend. The trend is the line of least resistance.

Inportance of the empty spaces

Prices flow like a river/creek

Around from and to them...

''Here, demand begins to overcome supply''

well we have to find that out

motorway

motorway · 21 February 2009

ONE POINT CHARTS SHOW ALL
The one reversal changes, as they register on your charts, reflect all of the buying and selling.

When such price changes have completed the pattern, the picture thus formed is the best sort of inside information, since it may be indicative of an impending up move or down move, as the case may be.

When your three reversal charts confirm the conclusions reached by a study of your one reversal charts, you will then have corroborative proof, and your judgment is thereupon confirmed.

Should the implications of your one reversal charts be confirmed by the
three and also by the five reversal charts of the same stock, then you may consider your knowledge absolute and definite, and you must act accordingly.

Be ever alert and study at all times. Remember, the patterns which are traced
on your charts result from the action of individuals. Your chart discloses the balance of all influences.

It tells you what is taking place and when to prepare for the move as well as how to take advantage of that information.
Victor De Villiers

The further back you go in the history of market analysis
The closer you get to pure demand and supply

Looking at the markets of yesterday, today, and projecting that look into the future, it is evident that markets themselves do only three things after taking into account their basic buying and selling functions.

Their products rise in price, they fall in price, or they move sideways in price. If these are the only three things that they do, then in a nutshell we have the answer to what to concentrate on in market analysis.

We dissect and study every price, volume, and time action using whatever knowledge we have to analyze each price rise, each price decline, and each sideways movement.

This gives us the most meaningful direction to follow in our analytical efforts and takes us to the highest levels of Analysis. We will also find that behind a great deal of classical writing is this same focus, analyzing physical aspect after aspect of every rise and every fall.

When we take a close look at the classical period that ended with William Dunnigan's One-Way Formula for Trading in Stocks and Commodities in 1957, there is one common thread that links just about every technical work produced.

That single thread was that their analytical methodology dealt directly with the reality of physical price, volume, and time. For better or for worse (and this writer says "for worse"), the emphasis on reality of past years has given rise to a great deal of emphasis on fantasy today. Price, volume, and time are the only physical realities

Donald Mack

Update on the Shanghai charts

looking for this to keep leading the way

The whole theory of supply and demand is briefly but clearly shown.

The principle is old; it is easy to
understand. Very few people apply it.

Richard D Wyckoff

THE WEIGHT OF AUTHORITY BEHIND THIS METHOD

METHOD WEIGHS FORCES OF BUYING AND SELLING

The Point and Figure Method actually measures the forces of supply and
demand, and records the support and resistances at all points. It permits of a
wide range of visualization through its lucid, graphic records which allows
quick and ready comparison of one stock with others and with the market in
general, as reflected by a good index and, most important of all, with its previous technical action.

These records, if properly compiled from reliable sources,
will indicate the true trend of the market and of stocks, and will point out the
best trading and investment opportunities.

The Method indicates when and what to buy. It also cautions when to get out, first, through clear signals to act, then, through definite indications for the logical placement of stop orders. It teaches you to adopt a professional approach to your market transactions. Professionals may be considered as the insiders, pools, independent operators, stock sponsors, bankers, and others usually referred to as "they" by many market commentators.
Victor De Villiers

Anyone reading de Villiers work will see a lot of Wyckoff in it
and really nothing very far from the reality of demand and supply.

Even so Richard seems to think Victor went to close over to the dark side
of mechanical patterns ( fantasy )...
With his Fulcrums and Catapults

Ground gained ( demand ) Ground lost ( supply )
Ground Held ( support ) Ground withheld ( resistance )

length of thrusts
length of reactions

Equilibrium gained or lost

What is winning ?
What is waxing , what is waning
emerging or retreating

Demand Supply

"The whole theory of supply and demand is briefly but clearly shown.
The principle is old; it is easy to
understand. Very few people apply it."

motorway

motorway · 2 May 2009

RIO too after all it is a Shanghai Stock also

update that RIO chart

and also post the 2 box reversal chart

When the dynamic TIME is up, price movement will start and large volume will begin, either up or down."

As long as a stock is declining one unit per reversal either one, three or five or falling below or under the 45 degree trend line, it still is in a bear market and in a very weak position.
When a stock rallies and crosses the angle of 45 degrees after a strong decline. Then you are ready to put the angles on the other side of the 45 degree angle. Which shows that the stock is stronger in a bear market and may be getting ready to change into a bull market

A Basis for a forecasting Method

Broadly speaking, one can say that if the market does not show any movement, Olsen regards time as standing still, whereas if there is a great deal of movement, he regards it as moving fast. In emotional time, then, a second does not always last the same length of time, as it does in physical time. It is this concept of emotional time which allows a much more precise observation of market movements, and which above all allows exaggerated movements to be identified and quantified much better.

Here is a P&F chart..... It is strong also from the TOP ( there are no overhead 45 angles from the top.... THERE are lesser angles though and with P&F they show up on the (2) 3 (,4, & 5 ) box reversal.....

quotes from the gann thread

A trading method should be as simple as it can be.

motorway

tech/a · 3 May 2009

M/W

Would you be able to post a chart showing a few trades from inception to completion?

Ive never seen one traded with P&F.
I dont know how you would apply P&F analysis to a trade and never seen it done.How you'd analyse an opportunity through to managing the trade.

Would be interesting to watch if you could add some commentary.
Thanks M/W

motorway · 3 May 2009

Analyzing the XAO with a 75 pt chart atm ( remember earlier I was looking at the 100 pt )

We can then compare other candidates and objectively determine Technical postions

stocks ahead or behind ( in terms of buying and selling waves )

You can see for example RIO compared to XAO ( I am currently long RIO )

IF you look at the XAO chart you can see the chart is at a balance point

( one way is the line with the 2 in it if we break the phases up we have 5 boxes across / We are Five boxes High from that point )

So as posted in the Gann Thread XAO needs to move above resistance
or move back down for an optimal buy point

The thread should be full of P&F charts
But it is not

I left the thread with two books recommended
( They are good introductions )

All My entries are Basic Wyckoff

eg A Last point of supply after a Sign of Strength

You can not have an uptrend unless there is a reversal on a P&F chart
which not trapped in a time frame will be Timely

And does not move unless something moves it

motorway

tech/a · 3 May 2009

Thanks M/W.

I guess I should have a good look at Du Plessis which I have.
Have you adapted Wyckoff to P&F?
OR
did Wyckoff see P&F as "The" chart style for his method?

I note the VSA guys have removed P&F from their software.
As P&F was designed for recording 'ticks" I guess it can be used in anytime frame.

sails · 3 May 2009

Thanks for the post, MW. I can understand some of it...

When you say "rise above resistance", I assuming you mean it has to cross above your 100% line. How many squares does it need to rise above to be a valid cross?

motorway · 3 May 2009

tech/a said:
Thanks M/W.

I guess I should have a good look at Du Plessis which I have.
Have you adapted Wyckoff to P&F?
OR
did Wyckoff see P&F as "The" chart style for his method?

I note the VSA guys have removed P&F from their software.
As P&F was designed for recording 'ticks" I guess it can be used in anytime frame.

Wyckoff Used P&F on all time frames

With intra day he traded off P&F with volume (based on every tick & Tick Box size)
"Tape reading chart" ( I can send you an example )

Du Plessis is OK covers a lot

But he knows very little Wyckoff
And a few holes ( that are important )

P&F was never just a breakout method
Du Plessis has one page about buying underneath the pattern for example

Wyckoff used it for larger time frame ( SMI course )
as a tool to define objectively every stock of interest
it's trend /postion in the trend / capacity for a move --which way

Larger time frame he used Bar chart and P&F equally
and made the point you could trade of either alone

There is a VSA seminar that had a lot of Wyckoff in it ( Pruden was involved
it might be still available )
and some P&F and a promise to incorporate best P&F in a new tradeguider

( So scan P&F for setups like Wyckoff did )
Also determine Market strength or weakness from aggregating all the P&F charts..

motorway

motorway · 3 May 2009

sails said:
Thanks for the post, MW. I can understand some of it...

When you say "rise above resistance", I assuming you mean it has to cross above your 100% line. How many squares does it need to rise above to be a valid cross?

First it has to cross
Then it is what happens

Any "work" at that point ( sideways movement ) and move down is negative
A thrust up and down is just part of a larger base building

Sideways but hold the gains is bullish and would want to go with move up from that point

A break up of THREE BOXES
would want to see the space retained from the breakout

very bullish

McClarren ?( talks of Spacing Gann )
Difference between a true and false catapult

Good spacing is Bullish sign

guidlines only
All is manipulation

motorway

tech/a · 3 May 2009

Got it.(I actually do!).

You use a P&F package with a search type programme is that right?
I havent seen anything that searches P&F charts.
Surely you dont do all that labelling and numbering manually!

motorway · 10 October 2009

Anyone interested in P&F
and other methods of complete reality .

And The Scales Of Market Shocks/OlsenScales
are P&F CHARTS ( 100 of them )

Will be interested in this

http://www.olsenscale.com/about/video_archive/

esp the 5th and 3rd videos
And as an intro the 1st

4th is interesting too

How so very much
Something that is old . IS very new too..

Time frames distort ( and worse ), hide reality

Through

Distraction -->Getting lost in noise (clock ticking when it should not)
& Oblivion ---> Missing the significant.. ( clock not ticking faster when it should )

The challenge -->Move away from Clock time to Intrinsic time

To Event driven Reality where the velocity of Directional Change ( P&F Box size & Reversal ) and Overshoot....
Define Intrinsic Time---> Market Time----> Completely Real Time..

Re read the quotes from the 1930's of De villier's/Wyckoff
& compare

The Point and Figure Method actually measures the forces of supply and
demand, and records the support and resistances at all points. It permits of a
wide range of visualization through its lucid, graphic records which allows
quick and ready comparison of one stock with others and with the market in
general, as reflected by a good index and, most important of all, with its previous technical action.

These records, if properly compiled from reliable sources,
will indicate the true trend ( because now we are in Intrinsic Time ) of the market and of stocks, and will point out the
best trading and investment opportunities.

Should be many P&F charts on the forum
Because They are unambiguously
Completely
Real

Real = what has efficacy

completely --> Speaks for itself

Richard Olsen , and others , have come to their version of P&F
Through correct theory
Tape reader's came to it empirically

Both are RIGHT 100% in their choice of tools

When one deals in Intrinsic time ( and that is what deals with us in ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE )
One Finds that
The many things that people spend/waste ( WORRY ABOUT ANXIOUSLY ) time on in trying to crack the markets ( or LIFE )

Do not even exist..Let alone are in any way important

For Discussion

Where is the REAL ?

What is real . What is just mere artefact ?

--->

---> conventional time series analysis, focusing exclusively on a time series of regularly
spaced observations, is far removed from both the fractal viewpoint and the real nature of
the raw data

is far removed from the THE REAL....from TRUE TRENDS...
from TRUE SUPPORT and RESISTANCE..

Every Column = an EVENT ( it matters
= A TREND
EVERY REVERSAL is an EVENT = SUPPORT or RESISTANCE it matters

No Event
Never Matter
No Matter
NEVER MIND

Only the Real, counts
It has effect
It is an EVENT

-->and of course there is ALWAYS more

What does FRACTAL mean
It means when we remove Time Frames
All markets are basically the SAME
& all (effective) SCALES are the same

and ( controversly ? ) Are traded basically the same

Scaling Laws -->SCALE
They are invariants

It is only

conventional time series analysis

That obscures and makes differences that are not there
By distorting intrinsic time ( reality )

motorway

Timmy · 11 October 2009

Good stuff Motorway; yes, Olsen's videos are almost a text on PF charts! Thanks a lot for the link to those.

Point & Figure Charting - secret weapon?

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