Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Oil price discussion and analysis

Re: OIL AGAIN!

Interesting article. I also note that China intends exporting cheap cars to Aus, something like 11K. If ever there was a time for alternative transport now is the time so come on guys get your thinking caps on!!!


Oil: the party is over

Gwynne Dyer
Wednesday, April 19th 2006

Welcome to the world of US$70-per-barrel oil. That's if there is no crisis in the Gulf over Iran's nuclear ambitions. If there is, then get ready for US$140 a barrel. Oil briefly breached the US$70 barrier eight months ago, but this time it is going up for good.

Exactly one year ago the investment bank Goldman Sachs put out a paper suggesting that the "new range'' within which oil prices will fluctuate is US$50-US$105 per barrel. (The old range, still used by most of the oil industry when deciding if a given investment will be profitable, was US$20-US$30.) The price could surge well past the upper end of the Goldman Sachs range if the United States actually does launch military strikes against Iran, but it's going up permanently anyway.

Transient events like the Iran crisis and the political unrest in Nigeria (which has cut that country's exports by a quarter) drive the daily movements in the oil price, but the underlying supply situation is so tight that oil would stay high even if Nigeria turned into Switzerland and Iran opted for unilateral disarmament. "On production, there is nothing we can do. (OPEC, the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, is) already producing at maximum output,'' said Abdullah al-Attiyah, Qatar's Oil Minister.

This is not about "peak oil,'' the notion that we are already at or near the point where total global oil production reaches its maximum and begins a long decline. That may well be true, but the present price rise is just about rising demand for oil as the big developing countries, especially the Asian ones, lift large parts of their populations into the middle class.

Middle-class people buy cars. They also run their air conditioners all summer, and take holidays abroad, and do other things that have big implications for total energy consumption, but above all they buy cars. For the foreseeable future most of the cars they buy will run on some form of refined oil.

The rising demand that drives the oil price up does not just come from the middle-class Americans (and, increasingly, Europeans) who insist on driving enormous SUVs with macho names like "Raider'', "Devastator'', and "Genocidal Exterminator''. It also comes from the new middle class of unassuming Chinese, Indian, Russian and Brazilian families who only want a modest family car for the school run and the weekend. There are just so many of them. This is the first big price rise that has been caused by rising demand rather than some temporary interruption of supply.

Goldman Sachs also predicted last year that in 20 years' time there will be more cars in China than in the United States -about 200 million of them. Ten years after that, India's car population will also overtake America's. Within 20 years Russia and Brazil will each have more cars than Japan. We are headed for a billion-car world (unless all the wheels fall off first), and that means permanently high oil prices.


Good. If the oil price rises gradually from US$70 to US$100 over the next five years, people and governments will start paying serious attention to energy conservation and alternate energy sources (including nuclear energy). The sooner that happens, the less extreme the global warming that we will have to contend with as the century progresses. But if the oil price leaps to US$100 or more in one swift jump we will have the mother of all recessions, and then there will be a desperate shortage of funding for developing alternative sources of energy.

A US attack on Iran is not the only threat to oil prices. If the markets should ever collectively decide that "peak oil'' is upon us and that the supply of oil is heading for actual decline, the price would soar out of sight overnight. The oil companies and the governments of OPEC reassure us that oil reserves are ample to cover consumption at the current rate of world economic growth for decades to come, but they would be saying that whether it was true or not, and there is reason to suspect that it is not.


Never mind the geology. Just consider the fact that in the years 1985-1990, when OPEC's declared reserves grew by a massive 300 billion barrels, no major new oilfields were brought into production. The "growth'' was achieved by recalculating existing reserves, and the incentive for exaggeration was provided by OPEC's decision to set production quotas in proportion to the total size of each member's reserves. So over a quarter of the world's total "proven'' oil reserves of 1.1 trillion barrels may be no more than an accounting fiction.

The best we can hope for in the coming years, therefore, is a relatively slow and steady rise in the oil price, rather than a steep, fast rise that upsets everybody's applecarts. The party is definitely over.


-Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries.
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

Oh dear, don't rise too much or else you may de-rail this commoditites boom!
 

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Re: OIL AGAIN!

YOUNG_TRADER said:
Oh dear, don't rise too much or else you may de-rail this commoditites boom!

Tend to agree, when oil gets to $100 or not even that high but higher than what its at now, then it will cause inflation...

After this happens, there will be a recession and demand for everything will go down, commodity prices will go down, company profits will be less, and the global stockmarkets will see a massive correction, unemployment up also, exports will be down due to decreased demand...

But gold - will go up..

But even though commentators such as Jim Rogers say that historically commodity bull runs last for btw 15-23yrs, these correlate inversly to global equity markets... now we have both - so something should give..

I would say commodity producers would be the way to go for big gains during commodity bull runs...(eg. Poseidon nickel in 1970s), but now we also have high oil prices - and if that curbs demand - that may ruin everything ?

The oil spike in 1980s was only short-lived, but speculators/economists/commentators say because of China and India's growth, the demand side of the equation is permanently changed forever. To quote some1 (i forgot who): "When the coastal people of china decide they want to have the same % of automobiles as Korea, and they number 165million+, we'll need 2 more Saudi Arabias pumping flat out"..

http://www.miningmx.com/energy/479408.htm

Thoughts ?
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

I've been bullish on oil for a while and there's still a lot of well priced companies out there including a few juniors who are producing and with good exploration prospects...my guess is we will see some considerable gains in these over the next few weeks
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

kgee said:
I've been bullish on oil for a while and there's still a lot of well priced companies out there including a few juniors who are producing and with good exploration prospects...my guess is we will see some considerable gains in these over the next few weeks
I 'm banking on cue and to alessr degree PNo and ARQ
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

kgee said:
I've been bullish on oil for a while and there's still a lot of well priced companies out there including a few juniors who are producing and with good exploration prospects...my guess is we will see some considerable gains in these over the next few weeks

hi which oil juniors u reffering to?

thx

MS
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

Down Boy! Down! Sit! Sit!

Looks like Oil will rebound strongly from $72.70 support to test previous high this week!
 

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Re: OIL AGAIN!

Crakaton,

PNO is not an oiler as far as I am concerned ?! Maybe you are referring to another stock ??
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

Fab said:
Crakaton,

PNO is not an oiler as far as I am concerned ?! Maybe you are referring to another stock ??
Sorry my mistake. It was pan pacific oil. PNO is pharmaceuticals.
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

The retracement seems to be accelerating, OI increasing. Might be some local ASX oil co set ups to enter in anticipation of the next run up.
 

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Re: OIL AGAIN!

Michael I like COE and maybe EPN depending on testing of fairbridge (next couple of weeks...)I hold AZA and the NXS takeover should be successful I can see it going to 1.60 shortly.
As to oil it will be interesting to see how the US and the markets react to Iran refusing to stop their Uranium enrichment isn't the 28th the deadline?? :confused:
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

Whats going on with oilers?

CL got smashed on nymex last night but WPL steady, AMU up HZN rocketing.

Not what I expected.

Or is it because CL was just having a fibonacci retracement? ;)
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

Interesting announcement by ROC, may have some bearing on why HZN has taken off.
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

I know, looks like i'll be opening more red tonight.

But good grief. Crude dropped 3% and WPL is up almost 1% now :confused:

What is going on :cautious:
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

i came across this very interesting article by Clif Droke, dated 18 Jun 2006:

"Oil and the 8-Year Cycle"
http://news.goldseek.com/ClifDroke/1150642920.php

what's encouraging is that it talks of a distinctive if asymptotic upward move in oil from roughly 2007-2009.

but having just gone long on Oil Search CFDs, i was a bit worried to read that he expected oil to bottom in September this year...

are these kind of sites credible? and are there any of you fundamentalist investors or technical analysts that think otherwise?

cheers
 
Re: OIL AGAIN!

scsl said:
i came across this very interesting article by Clif Droke, dated 18 Jun 2006:

"Oil and the 8-Year Cycle"
http://news.goldseek.com/ClifDroke/1150642920.php

what's encouraging is that it talks of a distinctive if asymptotic upward move in oil from roughly 2007-2009.

but having just gone long on Oil Search CFDs, i was a bit worried to read that he expected oil to bottom in September this year...

are these kind of sites credible? and are there any of you fundamentalist investors or technical analysts that think otherwise?

cheers
Hi scsl,
I don't really know much about that site but generally the chart looks bullish, currently appears to be correcting, still some more of it to go before a move out of this range- chances are an upward break but nothing is assured. Overall trend is certainly up. Maybe someone who has studied oil cycles will be able to comment.

....ok, I've just had a quick look and extracted the article in full below. It's a shame that chart wasn't annotated to reflect the commentary.

Oil and the 8-Year Cycle

By: Clif Droke, Gold Strategies Review
http://news.goldseek.com/ClifDroke/1150642920.php
-- Posted Sunday, 18 June 2006

In view of the approaching 8-year cycle bottom we’ve been discussing in recent articles let’s examine the crude oil market compared to previous cycles for ideas on what to expect in the weeks and months ahead.

Does oil follow the 8-year cycle as closely as the stock market does? Not as closely but the longer-term cycles with the Kress 120-year cycle series typically have a depressing effect on the oil price, not before but just after the final bottoming phase of the cycle. In other words, the oil price usually has a delayed reaction to the longer-term cycle bottoms.

For instance, the last long-term cycle bottom that we experienced this decade was the 12-year cycle bottom of October 2002. We all remember how bad the year 2002 was for stock prices as the bear market that had begun in 2000 was at its worst. Stock prices fell nine of out of 12 months in 2002 before bottoming in the fall of the year with the 12-year cycle low. During most of 2002 the oil price was actually rising off its late 2001 low price of approximately $17/barrel and made a high of just over $30/barrel in the fall of 2002 just as the 12-year cycle was bottoming. In the weeks immediately following the 12-year cycle bottom, the oil price experienced a rather sharp retracement or corrective pullback from about $31 down to about $25 (at that time a fairly sizeable decline). After finding support above the $25 level, oil continued its bull market into 2003.

What is the relationship between the 8-year cycle bottom and the price of oil? As discussed in the previous commentary entitled "A look at the upcoming 8-year cycle bottom," the previous 8-year bottom in autumn of 1998 saw an almost across-the-board bottom of what had been a severe decline in stocks and commodities that summer. The crude oil price had fallen from its high in January of that year to a low of around $10/barrel by the end of the year, making it one of the last to bottom among the fuels (natural gas bottomed in September-October along with the orthodox low of the 8-year cycle in ‘98 along with the broad stock market).

Despite the belated bottom in oil in 1998 you can see that there was downward pressure being exerted against the oil price throughout that year in response to the falling 8-year cycle. The slope of the oil price through 2006 has been upward, but even this year with the 8-year cycle bottoming you can see evidence that there is pressure against oil coming from this cycle. This has especially been evidence since late April/early May of this year as oil peaked at that time just over $74 and has been below that level since.

oil.png

What this testifies to is that the secular trend for oil is up while the short-term trend is coming under pressure from the "hard down" phase of the latest 8-year cycle that is due to bottom in September. Once the downward pressure from the 8-year cycle has lifted oil should eventually resume its upward bias with 2007 most like witnessing a rising trend. One reason for this assumption is that the 8-year cycle is really only a composite of the 2-year cycle. The 2-year cycle bottoms in even numbered years and peaks in odd numbered years. In response to the 2-year cycle you can see that the oil price tends to outperform in odd years (1985, 1987, 1989, 1999, 2005) and underperform in even years (1984, 1986, 1988, 1992, 1998).

One very notable exception to this was in 1990 when a previous 8-year cycle was bottoming. The oil price experienced a rather sharp drop from February through July of that year when downward pressure from the 8-year cycle was strong. That summer, however, the oil price made an about face and shot up to a major high at that time of $40/barrel. This was in the face of the Persian Gulf war of course and is an example of how political considerations can supercede strictly financial concerns in the oil market due to its extremely sensitive nature. Yet in keeping with the delayed reaction it often has to a longer-term cycle, the oil price declined sharply in the months following the bottom of the 8-year cycle in 1990, with oil dropping from $40 to a more subdued $18/barrel in early 1991.

With the secular trend of oil up relative to the comparable period in the previous decade, the upcoming 8-year cycle bottom should produce for oil a meaningful pullback followed by a resumption of the rising trend probably by sometime in early 2007. The previous 8-year cycle low in late ‘98 was followed by an explosive rally in the oil price from early 1999 until later 2000 with oil rising from $10 to almost $40 in that nearly 2-year period. At that time oil was coming off a major "oversold" extreme so it’s doubtful the rise in oil following the upcoming 8-year cycle low will be as pronounced. There should, however, be a distinctive if asymptotic upward move in oil from roughly 2007-2009.

This expectation is not only a function of the market being relieved of downward pressure from the 8-year cycle; it’s also a natural response to the tendency of inflationary commodities such as oil and gas to experience bull markets during the final three years of any given decade. This decennial pattern is not a cycle, properly speaking, but rather a recurring pattern within a longer-term cycle. Looking back at the past several decades you can see the tendency for stagflation, or the phenomenon of stagnant earnings growth and rising commodity prices, to rear its unsightly head from approximately the seventh year of the decade through the ninth year (e.g., 1977-1979, etc.) During this period stock prices often experience meaningful gains despite the fact that corporate earnings growth begins to slow noticeably, partly in response to rising commodity prices. This in turn eventually gives way to the bear market and/or economic recession that usually accompanies the onset of a new decade.

The upcoming 2007-2009 period will probably not be an exception to this historic pattern. Stock prices will likely benefit from the lifting of the 8-year cycle pressure in 2007 up until the peak in the 10-year cycle in 2009. But during this period we can also expect to see certain commodity prices pushing forward with stocks, gradually undermining corporate balance sheets along the way. The years 2007-2009 will be a transitional time for the U.S. for it will represent the final forward surge before the massive deflation beginning with the bottoming of the 60-year/120-year cycle in 2010-2014.

Clif Droke is the editor of the daily Durban Deep/XAU Report, a technical forecast and analysis of several leading gold and silver stocks, including DRDGold and the QQQ available at www.clifdroke.com. He is also the author of numerous books, including "Gold Stock Almanac 2006."

This is the link to Droke's previous article on 8 year market cycles referred to above: http://news.goldseek.com/ClifDroke/1150297620.php
 

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Re: OIL AGAIN!

ok thanks for that RichKid.

...i'm just banking on a short term spike out of the $68-70 region it's been trading in the past week or two. :)

it's currently $70.12 as i post this, up about 80 cents!
 
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