National poverty - The new normal?

[Value Collector]

If people are put out of work their consumption must fall , business gets less income and the government gets less tax.

As machines have steadily taken the place of labour over the last 150 years, products and services have gotten cheaper, and new industries have sprang up suppling even more products and services into the economy, and increasing the standard of living.

As an owner of a method of production, e.g. a bread factory. Your ultimate goal is to make ship loads or bread and exchange this daily bread output for other things you can use in you life.

e.g. other food stuffs, a house, plane rides, music, movies, holidays etc etc.

even if it got to the point where no business anywhere required labour, and unemployment went to 100%, the owners of all the method of production would just trade goods and services with each other.

they would only require the other owners as their customers, losing employees wages in the economy doesn't mean business in general would cease.

 

[Value Collector]

I could buy a house in the 70's kids today have no hope so I really don't think they're better off.

As I said that "House" is out of reach largly because of population growth.

However, kids today have all sorts of things you couldn't dream of.

in 1975 Could you video call from a hand held device, Did you have air con, were your cars as safe, how much of your weekly wage did a flight to the Gold Coast cost, the list is endless really.

 

[SirRumpole]

they would only require the other owners as their customers, losing employees wages in the economy doesn't mean business in general would cease.

Mate , have you just come back from Disneyland ?

Why didn't the owners of the means of production keep themselves going in the Great Depression ?

A few customers can't keep businesses going , they need a mass market.

 

[Tisme]

As I said that "House" is out of reach largly because of population growth.

However, kids today have all sorts of things you couldn't dream of.

in 1975 Could you video call from a hand held device, Did you have air con, were your cars as safe, how much of your weekly wage did a flight to the Gold Coast cost, the list is endless really.

Did you have the same building rules and oncosts? The truth is that real wages have eroded in comparison to CPI and the poverty gap is growing.

 

[McLovin]

You can use all the arguments based on figures you like but the fact is I was better off than my children are today in so many ways, Australia has changed and not for the good.

Err...you made an argument based on figures and I questioned it.

If you want to live in the world of personal anecdotes, don't make arguments based on data points.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

One of the problems with this thread and it's replies is that nobody has gone back to the OP, original poster, who stated that Greece was a paradise until the local yokels were made pay taxes.

Now, I am no economist, and a cash economy may work, and Greeks retiring between 50 and 55 on full pensions may be able to afford to live a decent life. However.

However when you are in the EU it don't work.

National Poverty has been with us since Adam. Some peoples prosper, others scrape by.

Work and save, be resilient and expect setbacks, and stop whingeing is my recipe for avoiding "National Poverty"

gg

 

[Tisme]

our youth that have no hope of ever purchasing a home in their own city without an inheritance.

or get gifted several hundred thousand dollars from their old man to buy into the better areas .... all I have to do is figure out how to live comfortably in old age because of it.

 

[Value Collector]

A few customers can't keep businesses going , they need a mass market.

What do you mean a few customers? The capital owners are a large body of people.

The commonwealth bank has 800,000 share holders and that's just one company.

Think of farming, one group of people might own the land, another group own the crops, another group own the equipment used to plant and harvest while yet another group own the equipment used to transport the output to market. Each group made their investments based on different risk vs reward metrics.

But this group involved in farming rely on other groups operating all the other parts of the economy they want to use, e.g. The breweries making the beer, the companies operating the airports, companies making the clothing, the movies, the tvs, iPhones, Cars, mines producing raw materials, you name it millions of stuff.

 

[SirRumpole]

The commonwealth bank has 800,000 share holders and that's just one company.

How many of these investors are foreign ? They don't consume goods here, the money they earn goes overseas and not into our economy.

Of the rest, most of the investors don't make enough money from investments alone to support their consumption, they need a job ie regular income to support their daily needs.

As for the CBA, they could be in serious trouble soon, so maybe the investors will have to take a hit.

 

[Boggo]

and then you have this...

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/...n-worker-boost-secret-negotiations-government

 

[luutzu]

My point is that what you call poor (in Australia) is pretty well off, and consumes a lot more goods and services than the poor did in the past.

The average Aussies and Westerners are having it good. In many ways they're in the upper 1% of those in the 3rd world, with a much better quality of life. But that's not saying much really.

That and over the past few decades, most of the policies and infrastructure that produced such a high quality of living are being systematically eroded or completely removed.

Australia hasn't gone to the extend of the US, or the UK... but social mobility, work hard to get ahead or just to get along... it's getting a whole lot tougher. That's not to say that life should be easy and things ought to be handed to people, just a whole bunch of stuff are being taken away, more burden have been shifted onto the poor... but we're supposed to not think about class warfare or question these kind of "free market" stuff.

I mean just look at what Trump and his Republicans are trying to do. The same has been done all these decades, under all administrations... just those guys were smarter and more quieter about corporate welfare and war on the working class than Trump is. Similar things have been followed down under, just we're a bit more sensible and don't have those guns, freedom and religion stuff to cover it better.

 

[MrBurns]

As I said that "House" is out of reach largly because of population growth.

However, kids today have all sorts of things you couldn't dream of.

in 1975 Could you video call from a hand held device, Did you have air con, were your cars as safe, how much of your weekly wage did a flight to the Gold Coast cost, the list is endless really.

Ok so you're saying that owning a house isn't important because kids have IPhones.

And owning a house is harder because of population growth ? How about owning a house is harder because dirty money from overseas has been allowed to buy here without restriction....

 

[SirRumpole]

And owning a house is harder because of population growth ? How about owning a house is harder because dirty money from overseas has been allowed to buy here without restriction....

Both. Plus negative gearing and CGT discounts.

 

[MrBurns]

Err...you made an argument based on figures and I questioned it.

If you want to live in the world of personal anecdotes, don't make arguments based on data points.

I just quoted figures comparing the 70's with now. My main argument is that the young of today are faced with insurmountable problems if they want to buy a HOME I'm angry, very angry that our worthless politicians are incompetent.
The Chinese Govt has just recently stopped money flowing to Australia to buy real estate, why didn't our grinning fools do that long ago ? .....Oh sorry too busy debating marriage equality.

 

[MrBurns]

Both. Plus negative gearing and CGT discounts.

Correct .............

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

This is a nonsense thread.

No sense.

No new information.

I've heard better at t1ts on Tuesday at the Ross Island Hotel.

gg

 

[SirRumpole]

This is a nonsense thread.

No sense.

No new information.

I've heard better at t1ts on Tuesday at the Ross Island Hotel.

gg

You are welcome to improve the thread with some well argued points gg .

 

[luutzu]

I just quoted figures comparing the 70's with now. My main argument is that the young of today are faced with insurmountable problems if they want to buy a HOME I'm angry, very angry that our worthless politicians are incompetent.
The Chinese Govt has just recently stopped money flowing to Australia to buy real estate, why didn't our grinning fools do that long ago ? .....Oh sorry too busy debating marriage equality.

Foreign cash coming into the country isn't in and of itself a bad thing. So our politicians and the RBA luring capital [corrupt or otherwise] away from other countries to buy our overpriced pieces of crappy real estate... it's a good thing.

The bad side effects is, as you said, young people nowadays can't compete with that kind of money and are being screwed.

Then there's the further, maybe intentional, effect is to chain people down with debt so they'd work hard and don't ask for stuff like higher wages, safer working conditions and other kind of luxuries.

The problem with all these smart games is that those corrupt cash will eventually dry up and those who rushed in [aussie or not] to borrowed for that $1m+ property will either have to work real hard, not get fired, not get sick or have any kind of emergency or accident - like starting a family.

If enough of these happen, the property market will crash like it's 1929, 1980s, 2001, 2008 etc.

So a generation or two will be totally stuffed when proverbial hits the fan.

If it does not hit the fan and our bankers and politicians somehow managed a soft landing... the economy as a whole will still be stuffed, just in a nicer way...

For one, if a person owes $800k on that $80k salary... how will they ever take risk with their career? Take a year or two off that proper rat race to invent some stupid stuff that might change the world. Ain't going to happen.

The majority of those who were either smart or lucky and have 5 homes still under the banks' name but they're paying off... they're either feeling so rich they won't be doing anything beside working harder to pay off that loan and getting the equity out now and then for a trip or a Lexus.

Having a home to put some roots down... a shed outback to tinker with this and that idea on the weekends or after work. Not to mention a tradie having a big garrage/carport to store their tools and do some extra work rather than having to hire a factory.

Things are getting a lot tougher to get that entrepreneurial risk taking, creative juices and experimentation going.

So the likes of Elon Musk and Bill Gates will have to step up and do all that invention for the rest of us.

 

[satanoperca]

Things are getting a lot tougher to get that entrepreneurial risk taking, creative juices and experimentation going.

So the likes of Elon Musk and Bill Gates will have to step up and do all that invention for the rest of us.

But dear old Malcolm told us we are to become a country of innovation, when everyone knows, just borrow big(debt) and gamble it all on red (property), it is the only way and the easiest way to becoming rich without providing any valuable thing to society.

Why risk hard work and the long forgotten idea of savings, on trying to create a business that could employee people, that is for suckers.

The only answer is, buy established property and sell it to "those people" overseas trying to hide money.

If you are having problems getting paid, just ask the CBA how to avoid detection when transferring large amount of cash without the govnuts knowing.

 

[McLovin]

I just quoted figures comparing the 70's with now.

Thanks.