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bellenuit said:
The NBN could very well be the deciding factor on who gets to form government. It seems all the independents like the NBN plan, because of the way it targets rural Australia.
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Yes the NBN is popular with the three ex-National Party independents. This and their hatred of Barnaby Joyce and Warren Truss may tip them towards Gillard.

In a way this wouldn't be a bad thing. With Labor in power and the NBN going belly up like all Labor's wasteful programs, they will have to share the fall-out.
 
bellenuit said:
The NBN could very well be the deciding factor on who gets to form government. It seems all the independents like the NBN plan, because of the way it targets rural Australia.
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Agree...i think what ever happens the NBN is safe as its just so rural and Tasmanian friendly, the greens and all the independents want it, apparently it was a big factor in Tasmanian voting trends.
 
So_Cynical said:
Agree...i think what ever happens the NBN is safe as its just so rural and Tasmanian friendly, the greens and all the independents want it, apparently it was a big factor in Tasmanian voting trends.
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I agree SC.

As long as us folk in rural areas get paid the $3000-$5000 it will cost to get from the road through the paddock, up the wooden steps and in to the living room.

Thank god we'll have the Rural Independents in, to ensure we get that.

Fat chance of Labor ever putting their hands in their pockets for people in the bush.

gg
 
So_Cynical said:
Agree...i think what ever happens the NBN is safe as its just so rural and Tasmanian friendly, the greens and all the independents want it, apparently it was a big factor in Tasmanian voting trends.
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Worth noting in that context that the Tasmanian state Liberal leader, Will Hodgman, doesn't appear to share the party's view against the NBN.
 
Garpal Gumnut said:
I agree SC.

As long as us folk in rural areas get paid the $3000-$5000 it will cost to get from the road through the paddock, up the wooden steps and in to the living room.

Thank god we'll have the Rural Independents in, to ensure we get that.

Fat chance of Labor ever putting their hands in their pockets for people in the bush.

gg
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gg, the NBN will connect to the premises via an Optical Network Termination (ONT) in the house, which is spliced through to a nearby Fibre Distribution Hub (FDH), which connects through to a local aggregated Fibre Access Node (FAN) then on to the backhaul.

Also in Brisneyland the City Council are deploying some private fibre in the sewers as described here.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/technology/brisbane-city-council-plan-to-install-broadband-cable-through-sewers/story-e6frep1o-1225887277019

Maybe this same delivery methodology could be implemented to haul the NBN fibre up your way ?

My only concern is knowing the way government plan, implement and deliver things, I can see real potential for the **** to really hit the FAN..:p:
 
bellenuit said:
The NBN could very well be the deciding factor on who gets to form government. It seems all the independents like the NBN plan, because of the way it targets rural Australia.
Click to expand...

Now we get to possibly see scripted and non scripted or core and non core promises as Abbott may have to connect north QLD to NBN to win the day.
 
Solly said:
gg, the NBN will connect to the premises via an Optical Network Termination (ONT) in the house, which is spliced through to a nearby Fibre Distribution Hub (FDH), which connects through to a local aggregated Fibre Access Node (FAN) then on to the backhaul.

Also in Brisneyland the City Council are deploying some private fibre in the sewers as described here.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/technology/brisbane-city-council-plan-to-install-broadband-cable-through-sewers/story-e6frep1o-1225887277019

Maybe this same delivery methodology could be implemented to haul the NBN fibre up your way ?

My only concern is knowing the way government plan, implement and deliver things, I can see real potential for the **** to really hit the FAN..:p:
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Im interested in who is going to supply all this fibre, and who is going to move it all over the country
 
noie said:
Im interested in who is going to supply all this fibre, and who is going to move it all over the country
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Here are the technical reasons NBN will fail :

1) fibre optic cable has a maximum theoretical lifespan of 25 years when installed in conduit. Over time, the glass actually degrades (long story), and eventually it cant do it's bouncing of light thing any more. But when you install fibre outside on overhead wiring (as will be done for much of Australia’s houses, except newer suburbs with underground wiring), then the fibre degrades much quicker due to wind, temperature variation and solar/cosmic radiation. The glass in this case will last no more than 15 years. So after 15 years, you will have to replace it. Whereas the copper network will last for many decades to come. Fibre is not the best technology for the last mile. That's why no other country has done this.

2) you cannot give every house 100Mbps. If you give several million households 100Mbps bandwidth, then you have exceeded the entire bandwidth of the whole internet. In reality, there is a thing called contention. Today, every ADSL service with 20Mbps has a contention ratio of around 20:1 (or more for some carriers). That means, you share that 20Mbps with 20 other people. It's a long story why, but there will NEVER be the case of people getting 100Mbps of actual bandwidth. Not for several decades at current carrier equipment rates of evolution. The “Core” cannot and will not be able to handle that sort of bandwidth. The 100Mbps or 1Gbps is only the speed from your house to the exchange. From there to the Internet, you will get the same speeds you get now. The “Core” of Australia’s network is already fibre (many times over). And even so, we still have high contention ratios. Providing fibre to the home just means those contention ratios go up. You will not get better download speeds.

3) new DSL technologies will emerge. 15 years ago we had 56k dial-up. Then 12 years ago we got 256k ADSL, then 8 years ago 1.5Mbps ADSL2, then 5 years ago 20Mbps ADSL2+. There are already new DSL technologies being experimented on that will deliver over 50Mbps on the same copper we have now. $zero cost to the tax payer

4) 4G wireless is being standardised now. The current 3G wireless was developed for voice and not for data, and even so it can deliver up to 21Mbps in Australia. There are problems with it, but remember that it was developed for voice. The 4G standard is specifically being developed for data, and will deliver 100Mbps bandwidth with much higher reliability (yes, the same contention issues apply mentioned earlier). $zero cost to the tax payer

5) the “NBN” will be one of the largest single networks ever built on earth. There are only a few companies who could do it - Japan’s Nippon NTT, BT, AT&T;, Deutsche Telekom etc. Even Telstra would struggle to build something on this scale. Yet we are led to believe that the same people who can’t build school halls or install insulation without being ripped off are going to to do it ? Here at Telstra, we are laughing our heads off, because when it all comes crumbling down, after they have spent $60+billion and the network is no more than half complete, it will be up to Telstra to pick up the pieces..............
 
Its only wireless to the phone tower,all other speeds quoted are in ideal conditions.
I will have to buy a house next to the exchange or under a tower, nice.
 
Where is the facts on fibre lifetimes? Not all fibre is made of glass. Some applications use plastics.

As for not being able to give out 100 Mbit to everyone I'm not sure any customer retail network is designed for everyone to use full capacity at once. Many DSLAMs setups cannot handle all people connected using full speed. The core network is potentially easily upgradeable for a cost. Change the terminal equipment. Nextgen is involved with 40 and 100 Gbit trials. Telstra has worked with Alcatel-Lucent from memory on similar long distance trials.

Contention ratios depend on ISPs as you say. Not all are 20:1 or worse. Some ISPs are more proactive and do better manage their networks. Over time people use it more so they upgrade network capacity. If you're willing to pay you can get access to services provided 1:1.

DSL is a limited vehicle - electrons and cheaper materials like copper has limits. Many improvements are designed for those close to exchanges. Telstra controls the exchanges and the copper network. Telstra uses equipment and arrangements that limit DSL. ADSL1 could do faster than what Telstra would allow when initially offered.

The Japanese build was based on government regulation and subsidies based on various conditions which helped drive retail consumption. The reality is no Australian government would do similar. Coalition does not want to do anything meaningful if it possibly reduces Telstra shareprices.

If USA is not doing something it doesn't mean it is bad. Many other countries interested in moving forward with technology have made moves and retail fibre including 100% private companies in some European have deployed fibre. They see it worthy.

Fibre allows a greater range of services to be deployed on a single access medium - possibly great for consumers. Issue is lack of redundancy. NBNCo has some PDF files worth reading about how it has built aspects of the network.

Wireless has issues. Travel around Tasmania and find how patchy it really is. How congested it gets in the evenings and only 1 carrier here has any decent coverage - Telstra. Optus has finally started to expand.
 
trainspotter said:
Here are the technical reasons NBN will fail :

On Whirl pool some where (I tried to find it) these aspersions are pulled apart by the various tech heads.

The life span of fiber is one that I personally know is wrong.
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Fat chance of Labor ever putting their hands in their pockets for people in the bush.

gg[/QUOTE]

Does it depend on which 'people' in the bush where thinking about. 'SORRY' I remember how 'thoughtful' 'Sir Joe' was to certain 'people' in the bush. And then of course there was Alexander Downers grand dad, very helpful. Ahh the good old'e days.
 
It is difficult to comprehend the stupidity of the Independents who voted with Labor to delay the release of the NBN Business Plan.


Cut this week to Turnbull's comment after the vote against his bill. Labor, he asserted, had abrogated its responsibility to taxpayers and consumers. They had been "supported in this recklessness" by Bandt, Windsor, Katter and Wilkie. Laying his charge, Turnbull said: "Every anti-competitive act by Labor's vast new monopoly communications carrier will be the direct responsibility of those who voted to duck their obligations to consumers. Every misstep, every setback, every failure of the reality of the NBN to live up to Senator Conroy's promises will be the direct responsibility of those who voted against transparency and independent analysis."
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At week's end Abbott, arguing for release of the NBN's business plan, said the last time Labor said a policy was "too important to be delayed" was the pink batts program. He asked: why was the government so keen to steamroll the parliament into making the most important decision of this term without the evidence?
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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...itll-keep-rising/story-e6frg6zo-1225956812030
 
todster said:
If or when they get the NBN up and running can I assume you won't be connecting.
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todster, firstly,the word A-S-S-U-M-E makes an ass out of you and me. I'm pleased you started with "IF" they (Labor) get the NBN up and running. It's going to be a big "IF" the way things are shaping with the OECD, Japan and other organisations saying the Gillard Government are on the wrong track.

As long as I can operate with ADSL or ADSL 2,which I might add is all I need at $49 per month, why would I want a provider at double the cost? Well, that is the cost that is being reported and I would not be surprised if they become a monopoly the cost will go higher and the average Joe Blow will have no choice and that is what Conroy is aiming for.

Why is it that only some 10% have signed up in Tasmania and what has the Gillard Government got to hide by with holding scrutiny of any business plan?
 
todster said:
If or when they get the NBN up and running can I assume you won't be connecting.
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As I understand it, neither Noco nor anyone else will have a choice as the Telstra copper network will be no more. Such is democracy in this fair land.
Given the NBN will be a monopoly, customers will have no choice but to pay the asking price. And you think this is a good thing, Todster???

noco said:
todster, firstly,the word A-S-S-U-M-E makes an ass out of you and me. I'm pleased you started with "IF" they (Labor) get the NBN up and running. It's going to be a big "IF" the way things are shaping with the OECD, Japan and other organisations saying the Gillard Government are on the wrong track.
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Yes, hopefully the pressure currently being applied, and which looks like swinging the independents away from Labor, will eventually require a cost benefit analysis. The Productivity Commission have made it clear they have considerable reservations about the whole project: hence the governments refusal to submit the plan to them.
The government is wrongly assuming the electorate to be so passive and/or so ignorant that they will get away with this.
The evidence is becomingly increasingly to the contrary.


As long as I can operate with ADSL or ADSL 2,which I might add is all I need at $49 per month, why would I want a provider at double the cost? Well, that is the cost that is being reported and I would not be surprised if they become a monopoly the cost will go higher and the average Joe Blow will have no choice and that is what Conroy is aiming for.
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Exactly right, noco. Conroy has already stated that the option to continue with the status quo will no longer exist when the NBN is operational.
Start saving now if you want to maintain a connection to the internet.
 
Julia said:
As I understand it, neither Noco nor anyone else will have a choice as the Telstra copper network will be no more. Such is democracy in this fair land.
Given the NBN will be a monopoly, customers will have no choice but to pay the asking price. And you think this is a good thing, Todster???


Yes, hopefully the pressure currently being applied, and which looks like swinging the independents away from Labor, will eventually require a cost benefit analysis. The Productivity Commission have made it clear they have considerable reservations about the whole project: hence the governments refusal to submit the plan to them.
The government is wrongly assuming the electorate to be so passive and/or so ignorant that they will get away with this.
The evidence is becomingly increasingly to the contrary.



Exactly right, noco. Conroy has already stated that the option to continue with the status quo will no longer exist when the NBN is operational.
Start saving now if you want to maintain a connection to the internet.[/


Choice you can still use wireless like I have to.
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