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- 3 June 2013
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Have worked for WATPAK
If they don't have the contracts then they will continue to shrink to maintain viability.
Then when larger contracts come along they may find it difficult to gear up.
There is a reason their chart looks like this over the last 5 yrs.
And looked healthy 5 yrs prior.
And unless there is an expansion phase again in infrastructure then this is not going to out perform.
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Hi craft,
Thank you so much, great advice as always. I've made an embarrassing mistake of just assuming it's all NCA.
But to my defence, some of it is! Their inventory is $60m in current, and $35m in non-current. Redoing my calculation.... Next year, we get, assuming $70m is realised for $95m of those assets, and writedowns are cancelled by some profits:
Current assets = $413.
Total Liabilities = $333m.
Yes, not quite a net net, but very close, unless there's a total meltdown in property prices and/or underlying business performance. I've allowed for a 25% reduction in property prices and $13m EBIT reduction.
KTP
The only way I could come up with those numbers is to double count the 70m you expect from realising the inventories in both cash and debt reduction.
How bout laying your calcs out long hand – so someone a bit slow like me can follow.
Hi Klogg,
That's absolutely correct - the company is now trading at rougly its liquidation value? So, I am asking myself - is this really such a bad company that it has no chance of future earnings and the best use of capital is to liquidate all of it? Really? There's hundreds of companies on ASX that are worse in every sense of the word trading at a much higher price.
I have to agree with what Oddson here - yes, there's plenty wrong with this company. Some things were mentioned, I could mention a few more myself. But it's trading at liquidation value, of course there's things wrong with it! But as a private owner of this business, bought at this price, what are the chances of me losing my investment?
It's not you, it's me
I have reduced debt without decreasing cash. It's like that, I make one mistake, then try to correct it too quickly by making others.
Current Assets (discounted) - Total Liabilities are now at about break even, with PPP priced at about 2/3 of book value. Projected NTA @ $1.14, same as this year (doh!).
Still very cheap, but not by as much as I erroneously calculated before.
A very sincere thank you.
He does add more on the subject, but it's probably better you listen to it yourself:
(http://www.bengrahaminvesting.ca/Resources/audio.htm - by the way, the audio download of Pabrai is also very worthwhile)
I believe this is what Craft is saying and it's a very important point.
I liked Russo’s concept of capacity to suffer.
Ok
Cheap, but somewhere in the range from deservedly so to potentially opportunistically cheap I would say. Certainly No NET-NET can’t lose territory. So the real question and what I have been driving at in this thread – Was it worth breaking your rules for?
Even if you are ultimately right about it being cheap you have introduced timing risk. Will it have repriced in your time frame? If not you are going to be potentially ultimately right but still incur a loss to free up capital for investments that meet your long-term plan.
My objection is not about this sort of investing, I’m aware some do it and do it well and they do it from a fundamental valuation approach.
My objection is about breaking rules.
The market doesn’t dictate rules – its actually pretty boundless in the opportunities and risks it presents, especially if you add leverage. We make up the rules and guidelines to expose ourselves to some opportunity without exposing ourselves to the boundless risk.
Rules and guidelines should be made when we are at our smartest, most realistic about our skills and abilities, most relaxed and thinking holistically. We make them to protect and guide us when we are at our dumbest most stressed and narrowly focused.
If this type of investment fits within your holistic approach – write it into your rules and do the work and develop the skills to execute that form of investing well. – If not, let your rules stop you from jumping at potential mirages.
Passing on WTP may ultimately turn out to be a mistake of omission when viewed in isolation but a much bigger mistake of commission is ignoring your rules. I would rather miss a bit of potential profit from opportunity outside my rules then miss the outcomes of a well thought out and executed plan. To me this is a really important point for ultimate success – I guess why I keep responding to your detours from your stated plan, so having stated my point as clearly as I can I shall leave you in peace next time you bend the rules -promise.
Happy investing.
I guess why I keep responding to your detours from your stated plan, so having stated my point as clearly as I can I shall leave you in peace next time you bend the rules -promise.
Hi KTP,
Over the years, I have read a few investment articles which make the same excellent point about data inputs and prediction accuracy, the articles are based on studies of sports gamblers and their prediction accuracy compared to the number of data inputs they use in prediction. The studies show the more data the gambler has access to the more confident they are in their prediction; unfortunately they do not get more accurate after a certain amount of data inputs. Putting aside the whole gambling/investing discussion, there is a parallel to take into consideration when applying a “Buy Lots of Cheap Stocks” strategy – after a few data points an investor is probably not going to improve their accuracy rate, better to just create a sausage factory to churn these investment decisions out using a simple investment flowchart (James Montier has a good example in his book, Value Investing).
I found reading papers about the Altman Z Score and Piotroski F score, in conjunction with the Tweedy Browne literature, incredibly useful when I started thinking about applying a cheap stock strategy. There is a lot in those papers, especially if you compare it to reading about the cheap stocks investments of Buffett, Greenblatt, or another crafty investor – sometimes, it is as if they are purely playing the numbers and sometimes they are just being plain old crafty. Just be clear about drawing a line between playing the numbers and being crafty.
This thread is going to be an entertaining and informative read over the next couple of years, keep it up.
Cheers
You're right, it's trading a little below liquidation value as listed in their accounts. But your margin of safety just isn't there.
Assets are clearly overvalued if all they can return is 3% on the revenue generated. That being said, if you apply a reasonable margin on assets (as described in my previous post), you're left without a margin of safety.
Of course, the other thing to remember with an asset play is you need something to trigger the realisation of that net asset value. If management continue to run a business with these assets that has poor returns, the stock will continue to trade at a discount to its assets. Ofcourse, if they decide to sell up, then shareholders may benefit - chances of this is very slim IMO.
For what its worth, I made this mistake with REX. They trade well below NTA, have little debts and a decent cash pile, but the share price tracks that of its earnings. I didn't lose any of my capital, but there was an opportunity cost over those 15months.
My problem with an asset play like WTP is that the assets are unlikely to be worth as much if the assets were actually sold. Further, I am of the belief that if you have assets you are never going to sell then they are only worth as much as the net income that they can generate. If a company is going to keep its land and its factories for 50 years and it's going to keep it's machinery until it dies well then the assets are simply worth the profit that they generate. If they are worth more then the future net profits then the company should just liquidate right now and disperse the money to shareholders.
I don't understand asset based investments for that reason. I have a significant amount of money (significant for me anyway) in a company trading over twice its book value as the net profit it will generate from its assets in the future exceeds the worth of the assets themselves.
I might be wrong though and perhaps in theory a company should at least reach its book value if it's generating a positive net income. If I end up losing money in the stock market at some point well then I will have to fire myself
Hi KTP,
I notice WTP is now trading above a $1.00. Are you tempted to sell?
Cheers
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