Military strike on Iran

[nomore4s]

Question is would you support a war on Iran if the choice was to keep living your current lifestyle or the alternative of putting the western world back into a severe long lasting depression where you have no job can't feed your kids etc.

It was only back in the 30's when sydney siders were joining the hungry mile at the ports where the queue was literraly km's long of people hunting for a days work.

I don't like the idea of plundering another country but in all seriousness the US has no choice now they either take others resources or push a large portion of their pop into poverty.

Oz is somewhat shielded we have huge amounts of indeigenous resources and could prob replace oil with a larger electrical industry. The US has alot of coal but not many other large resources deposits to turn the balance of trade.

If it really came down to the tough decision I doubt any of us wouldn't steal the oil. Fact is world governments aren't going to acknowledge that publically but the tough decisions are happening right now.

Wow, what are we becoming if this is the veiw of our society?
Who gives a sh*t about the innocent people that will die over there and the fact they will be in pov and starving, as long as we're happy and have our oil. Very sad.

That view means we are no better than the Mongolian hordes of the 13th century.

What about running the economy properly and buying the stuff.

We're going to kill 100's of 1000's of men women and children, so we can live frivolous lives filled by buying cheap Chinese tat? There is something amiss in our value system if that is the case!

FFS!

Prudence <> Poverty

Agree totally Wayne.

kiwi. if the west (or the coallition of the willing) needs to murder iranian civilians in a bullcrap war, to protect their bottom line, we will not be the goody anymore. how would that effect the national psyce of those involved?

I think we're closer to not being the goodie then many think. Some of the arguements to justify some of the actions of the west already leave alot to be desired imho.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Kiwi, I disagree in this regard. The US needed support for GWII. They had the UK, Australia, and I think Spain initially. This was enough to give the US credibility to move in. I do feel that they might have gone solo, but the risk would have been much greater and potentially unacceptable.

In regard to Russia and China, these two countries are much, much stronger now and weilding a much bigger stick. I'd be very surprised if these two are not a serious military ally in the coming years and make the US their puppy. Give it another 15 years for a total change of leadership. We will see it.

just because alot of people won't agree with it won't mean it won't happen. There are so many puppet governments out their controlled by the US that would give their moral support. I mean half the countries that were in the coallition for iraq were back water tiny nations with no economic of population might and were by no means a real indication of world support. Who cares if isalnd nations like Naru or samoa join you if russia and china don't (even though they have combined over a quarter of the worlds population and economic power)

I think you are also not taking into account the influence the US can exert through covert means. Look at the Olympic games, as if the US isn't trying to turn public opinion against china they are doing a good job. They control or exert huge control over all the western media. So much so that countries like China and Iran cut of public access to the internet and news becuase they know they will be feeding their people the US agenda.

The US does not need support from anyone they believe that they set the moral benchmarks. I mean look at the latest amnesty international report (US fingerprints all over it) China worlds largest exucutioner followed by Iran ! if you keep telling people these people are the devil they will believe it. I mean look at palestine, the US puppet of israel has been systematically pushing them out of their country building a prison around the rest of them, starving them of food and energy for 40 years ! where is the mainstream public critism for that? Which i would argue is one of the worst atrocities committed in the 20/21st century. Not to mention the CIA rendition, guantanimo etc etc.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Wow, what are we becoming if this is the veiw of our society?
Who gives a sh*t about the innocent people that will die over there and the fact they will be in pov and starving, as long as we're happy and have our oil. Very sad.



Agree totally Wayne.



I think we're closer to not being the goodie then many think. Some of the arguements to justify some of the actions of the west already leave alot to be desired imho.

hahahaha very sad

you are living in a fairy land mate. I dont want to see innocent people killed and I do care but im a realist.

I don't have to like it and i don't agree with it but for 2 billion years life on earth has been working on the principal of survival of the fittest, given it has a new context because we have developed so much intellectually.

But if you really cared about everyone in africa or iran as much as you do your family or yourself why aren't you doing all you can to improve their lives.

Fact is the world CAN NOT support 6 billion people living as you and I do, there has always been people with and with out.

The very fact that you are living a consumer lifestyle is basically the same as doing the damage yourself.

You may not be shooting someone or dropping a bomb directly but those 1000 dollars worth of chinese made plastic gadets you give your family at xmas with no real need for them other than to get a smile from you kid is taking resources away from feeding hungry africans etc etc.

Innaction and ignorance is no better than been directly involved in the persecution of others.

 

[Sean K]

just because alot of people won't agree with it won't mean it won't happen. There are so many puppet governments out their controlled by the US that would give their moral support. I mean half the countries that were in the coallition for iraq were back water tiny nations with no economic of population .

Kiwi, need to check who actually supported the war in Iraq.

I do agree on the 'puppet' comment, but only in the sence that anyone is a puppet when it suits their own needs. On the sum of it, those supporting the US need them, under their own sence of current reality.

I don't have to like it and i don't agree with it but for 2 billion years life on earth has been working on the principal of survival of the fittest,

Actually, it's natural selection.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Kiwi, need to check who actually supported the war in Iraq.

I do agree on the 'puppet' comment, but only in the sence that anyone is a puppet when it suits their own needs. On the sum of it, those supporting the US need them, under their own sence of current reality.

Actually, it's natural selection.

True

I just get worked up on this topic because there are 19 year old US kids over in Iraq right now that really have no other reason to be there other than to get their education paid for at a 2nd rate college to better their lives. When in fact they will probably go home traumatised, scarred having nightmares for the rest of their life (if they dont end up disabled or dead) and the real reason they are they is to protect our way of life so people like you and I can sleep well at night in the nievity that even though we really are good people at heart the truth is we are indirectly just as responcible for actions and inactions that cause pain and suffering around the world.

 

[nomore4s]

hahahaha very sad

you are living in a fairy land mate. I dont want to see innocent people killed and I do care but im a realist.

I don't have to like it and i don't agree with it but for 2 billion years life on earth has been working on the principal of survival of the fittest, given it has a new context because we have developed so much intellectually.

But if you really cared about everyone in africa or iran as much as you do your family or yourself why aren't you doing all you can to improve their lives.

Fact is the world CAN NOT support 6 billion people living as you and I do, there has always been people with and with out.

The very fact that you are living a consumer lifestyle is basically the same as doing the damage yourself.

You may not be shooting someone or dropping a bomb directly but those 1000 dollars worth of chinese made plastic gadets you give your family at xmas with no real need for them other than to get a smile from you kid is taking resources away from feeding hungry africans etc etc.

Innaction and ignorance is no better than been directly involved in the persecution of others.

lol, what I was trying to point out was if we are willing to start wars with countries only to secure oil and to keep living our excessive lifestyles and to keep our flawed economies running, that is pretty sad and desperate.

Surely there is a happy medium. And like Wayne said what's wrong with fixing our economies and buying the stuff.

 

[Sean K]

True

I just get worked up on this topic because there are 19 year old US kids over in Iraq right now that really have no other reason to be there other than to get their education paid for at a 2nd rate college to better their lives. When in fact they will probably go home traumatised, scarred having nightmares for the rest of their life (if they dont end up disabled or dead) and the real reason they are they is to protect our way of life so people like you and I can sleep well at night in the nievity that even though we really are good people at heart the truth is we are indirectly just as responcible for actions and inactions that cause pain and suffering around the world.

I get worked up on it as well, especially in the lead up to every ANZAC day. I've just been reading about some of the Western Front calamity in WWI and it's just shocking. Just remember that military action is an extension of politics by other means. We have all signed up to the present government, and their alliances, and our military will do what out government sees fit. The military are extentions of ourselves. There's many Aussie troops returning traumatised from Iraq and Afghanistan because we sent them there.

 

[Sean K]

True

I just get worked up on this topic because there are 19 year old US kids over in Iraq right now that really have no other reason to be there other than to get their education paid for at a 2nd rate college to better their lives. When in fact they will probably go home traumatised, scarred having nightmares for the rest of their life (if they dont end up disabled or dead) and the real reason they are they is to protect our way of life so people like you and I can sleep well at night in the nievity that even though we really are good people at heart the truth is we are indirectly just as responcible for actions and inactions that cause pain and suffering around the world.

I get worked up on it as well, especially in the lead up to every ANZAC day. I've just been reading about some of the Western Front calamity in WWI and it's just shocking. Just remember that military action is an extension of politics by other means. We have all signed up to the present government, and their alliances, and our military will do what our government sees fit. The military are extentions of ourselves. There's many Aussie troops returning traumatised from Iraq and Afghanistan because we sent them there. Kennas

 

[Santob]

True

I just get worked up on this topic because there are 19 year old US kids over in Iraq right now that really have no other reason to be there other than to get their education paid for at a 2nd rate college to better their lives. When in fact they will probably go home traumatised, scarred having nightmares for the rest of their life (if they dont end up disabled or dead) and the real reason they are they is to protect our way of life so people like you and I can sleep well at night in the nievity that even though we really are good people at heart the truth is we are indirectly just as responcible for actions and inactions that cause pain and suffering around the world.

The section in bold..how has that actually happened in Iraq?

WMDs were never there, so the WMD situation hasn't changed. You've asserted that the US is stealing oil, so howcome oil is getting more expensive and the US economy is tanking?

Sure Saddam is gone, whether life for Iraqi's is any better questionable. But its a moot point in terms of how it protected *our* way of life.

The terrorists how have a foothold in a part of the world they weren't in

Our "western" societies are becoming more draconian, invasive and in fact have resulted in less freedom *boo terrorism, need security, give money now or your family will DIE, and don't try complaining about it you terrorist sypmathiser *

So remind me again why the young kids are over there?

 

[YOUNG_TRADER]

Here we go...again with this pre-emptive nonsense, because it was such a success in Iraq.

Are we getting low on Oil again ?

The US military economy must need a boost.

Should China launch a pre-emptive strike against America to prevent future Iraqs/Afghanistans/Iran's happening? :

lol funny comments guys


As for my 2 bob, I saw my neighbour look at me funny this morning, he's a different nationality to me and comes from a different background, unfortunatley I'm unedcuated and ignorant so I fear what I don't know or understand (which is alot) so I'm thinking of king hitting him next time I see him, you know sorta strike first ask questions later as to why he was looking at me wierd :

p.s. The bastard also recently got a guard dog, how dare he try and protect himself!

I'll keep you posted about this developing crisis :

 

[juw177]

Do people still think that corporations and corporate funded governments care about human lives in non western countries?

They have all been following the same formula, the US are very good at it:
1. PR campaigns to rally public sympathy
2. PR campaign that an intervention will make things better
3. They go in and loot the crap out of the country while media keeps up the humanitarian intervention front.

Congo is the most extreme:
2 billion are dead as a result of keeping the western world supplied with coltan, an ore used in computer chips. But no one talks about that in the media. Instead they keep bringing up the Rwanda genocide and the endangered mountain gorillas as reason for occupation.

Sudan, Tibet and Lebanon next on the list?


Here is a bit of history for those who are still in doubt as to motives of any western intervention:
http://www.mltoday.com/Pages/Imperialism/Blum-USWars.html

 

[Sean K]

I'm unedcuated and ignorant

LOL

I'm adding that on to the 'Little Noob', claim!

he he

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

The section in bold..how has that actually happened in Iraq?

WMDs were never there, so the WMD situation hasn't changed. You've asserted that the US is stealing oil, so howcome oil is getting more expensive and the US economy is tanking?

Sure Saddam is gone, whether life for Iraqi's is any better questionable. But its a moot point in terms of how it protected *our* way of life.

The terrorists how have a foothold in a part of the world they weren't in

Our "western" societies are becoming more draconian, invasive and in fact have resulted in less freedom *boo terrorism, need security, give money now or your family will DIE, and don't try complaining about it you terrorist sypmathiser *

So remind me again why the young kids are over there?

OIL

our entire way of life is based on CHEAP abundant energy.

The huge increase in living standards from the 19 century is based on this and its coming to an end.

150 years ago if you wanted to live as you do today you would have to have a few slaves and horses and a huge amount of land. Now with one barrel of oil at 100 dollars you get the equivalent of 18000 man hours of work (chemical energy but lots of losses etc from refining etc etc) How do you transport a family of four 100 kms with luggage for about $20 of fuel any way else ? Without oil what do you do have 10 dogs pulling a sled, 4 horses

The entire green revolution of the 1970's which led to the huge population we now have in the world was on the back of oil based fertilisers. There isn't enough bat poo i the world to replace it.

Do you think people will drink bottled water when the cost of the plastic container it comes in could be 10 -20 -30 dollars ?

If we were to replace oil with renewable technologies we would starve half the world. Even to repalce all shopping bags with corn starch based biodegradble bags would result in a massive increase in the price of corn more loss of natural habitates to grow the stuff.

If you want to learn more about exactly how dependant our entire way of life is based on the oil economy watch a doco called "the crude awakening" its available at vid stores. Its really quite astonishing to relise how complacent we are about the whole peak oil thing the reprocusions and inevitability of the whole thing really make you see the world in a different way.

 

[metric]

Our "western" societies are becoming more draconian, invasive and in fact have resulted in less freedom *boo terrorism, need security, give money now or your family will DIE, and don't try complaining about it you terrorist sypmathiser *

So remind me again why the young kids are over there?

exactly.

 

[Sean K]

OIL

our entire way of life is based on CHEAP abundant energy.

Kiwi,

Have you considered that there will be a transition period between fossil fuels, and 'natural' energy, or an alternative, like solar, wind, wave etc. Fossil fuels are not the ONLY solution. We will mearly go through an economic transition. The reason why we still live off fossil fuels is because they are abundent, and economic to process and use. Once the balance tips we will go to other means. Right now we are developing those means and one of the most significant enablers of those means is nano technology which is being held back because it is not required just yet. Nano is going to change EVERYTHING for us in the coming years. Think about a solar panel on your house and car roof that provides ALL the energy you need in your life. That is the outcome. At the moment it is not required because of world economic equilibrium. We will probably see it in our time however.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

hang on think about it this way what should our goal be as humans?

world peace, every person fed, clothed and educated. A economy and way of life that works with the environment, equal opportunities..

Colonisation of space ?

How can we possibly get to any of these ideals without some form of WORLD government. I acknowledge the dangers of a world government but realistically think of the huge potential benefits. Trade couldn't be used as a weapon resources distributed evenly and a reduction of environmental destruction.

Religeon must be seperated from state across the globe if we are to ever make something really special of the human race and as bad as it can be regulated capitalism and democracy are really the only way we have of achiving this.

I think time is running out to start doing something toward this and I think the US knows this, there have been many papers written by neocons and scientists stating exactly this. The only way the world can continue on as it is now is with huge and far reaching governmental change and a fundamental shift is our economies and way of life.

We need to work as one world but there is so much vested interest in the status quo that to build a new world we have to tear down much of our existing world.

 

[KIWIKARLOS]

Kiwi,

Have you considered that there will be a transition period between fossil fuels, and 'natural' energy, or an alternative, like solar, wind, wave etc. Fossil fuels are not the ONLY solution. We will mearly go through an economic transition. The reason why we still live off fossil fuels is because they are abundent, and economic to process and use. Once the balance tips we will go to other means. Right now we are developing those means and one of the most significant enablers of those means is nano technology which is being held back because it is not required just yet. Nano is going to change EVERYTHING for us in the coming years. Think about a solar panel on your house and car roof that provides ALL the energy you need in your life. That is the outcome. At the moment it is not required because of world economic equilibrium. We will probably see it in our time however.

Totally agree mate and the one thing about humans are we are good adapters.

I believe we can shift to natural energy, I work in the electrical industry and there are already huge stepps been taken.

In 20 years most transport will be based on electrical rather than fossil but the problems is unless we severly change our use of energy we will not be able to catch up with consumption.

By improving efficiency we can quickly improve at least 25% and that could be done within 5-10 years.

I strongly believe efficiency is the answer, why have 3 air conditioners powered by wind turnines when you can have a house that regulates its temp. Prob is we really need to harden up in the west and rather than insisting on 18 degrees in summer live with the fact that 25-30 is a realistic comfortable range. Why try to play god and turn summer into spring we cant fight nature.

Why import food why not just live and eat by the seasonal availability as our grandparents did.

We are spoiled and really need to wake up as a society IMHO oz shuld be aiming to be self sufficient

 

[Sean K]

hang on think about it this way what should our goal be as humans?

world peace, every person fed, clothed and educated. A economy and way of life that works with the environment, equal opportunities..

How can we possibly get to any of these ideals without some form of WORLD government. I acknowledge the dangers of a world government but realistically think of the huge potential benefits.

Kiwi, I don't think it can be done. We can't even be best friends with our neighbours without a fence and council rules. And, we barely get on with the people inside our house because of differences. How is the world going to get on? Or the universe?

As far as supporting anyone else in a country far, far, away, it's only to make my own world better.

 

[derty]

Right now we are developing those means and one of the most significant enablers of those means is nano technology which is being held back because it is not required just yet. Nano is going to change EVERYTHING for us in the coming years.

Yep totally agree Kennas, nano will fundamentally change the world we live in, it will usher in a new 'age'.

I just hope the Nano Age gets here before the big boys start to duke-it-out over the dwindling petro-resources.

 

[Sean K]

Totally agree mate and the one thing about humans are we are good adapters.

YES! and it's why we have survived and become the dominant species. Having big brains and thumbs has aided in that regard. I think we've been lucky in a confluence of ideal circumstances that has allowed the caveman to survive. Who knows how it really happened, but here we are. Maybe it was blind luck!