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Labor's carbon tax lie

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noco said:
GLOBAL WARMING, WHAT GLOBAL WARMING?
Bob Carter has all the answers to the scam and the lies put up by this inept Green/ Labor Socilalist left wing government.
"Comrades" please read the attached link and pass it on to comrades Gillard and Brown.
http://www.quadrant.org.au/blogs/doomed-planet/2011/08/carter-in-canberra
Click to expand...
Spot on by the Prof.

...And the reason that recent Australian state and federal governments have done so poorly in this regard recently is because they have taken their eyes off the ball of natural climate-related hazard, in order to chase the passing political meteorite of hysterical alarm about speculative, human-caused global warming...Prof Bob Carter
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The Prof. might also have mentioned the proportion of the tax collections to be siphoned of overseas:

- 10% skimmed off the top by the UN

- estimated $57 Bill by 2050 to ask permission from other countries to have Australian power generation and domestic industries (i.e. by purchasing carbon credits offshore to meet mandated emissions reductions).

These other countries will be thinking...sure pal, how many carbon credits would you like - thinking...you idiots, millions of tonnes of coal in the ground, and you're transferring wealth to us?
 
Logique said:
The Prof. might also have mentioned the proportion of the tax collections to be siphoned of overseas:

- 10% skimmed off the top by the UN

- estimated $57 Bill by 2050 to ask permission from other countries to have Australian power generation and domestic industries (i.e. by purchasing carbon credits offshore to meet mandated emissions reductions).
Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty sad.
No-one (mainstream media) is talking about this.
I can't believe it.
Here is the Government trying to reduce CO2 (through a tax) and then handing over 10% income from this tax to the UN while China is putting up coal-powered power plants like crazy.
Surely l'm missing something here?
Is this how our country works?
 
Logique said:
The Prof. might also have mentioned the proportion of the tax collections to be siphoned of overseas:

- 10% skimmed off the top by the UN

- estimated $57 Bill by 2050 to ask permission from other countries to have Australian power generation and domestic industries (i.e. by purchasing carbon credits offshore to meet mandated emissions reductions).

These other countries will be thinking...sure pal, how many carbon credits would you like - thinking...you idiots, millions of tonnes of coal in the ground, and you're transferring wealth to us?
Click to expand...

Sound like a franchise deal to me. :cautious:
 
Doug Cameron needs a reality check, he has just worked out that the job losses are going to be serious and Julia doesn't give a rats ar#e.
Tommorrow he will probably work out that the industry compensation package is to help manufacturing industries to pay redundancies and change over to import based.
What the hell is wrong with these politicians they are supposed to understand the issues. What the :eek:
 
Smurf1976 said:
And if they do close? Well then production just gets shifted overseas. We export the coal and iron ore, buying back steel. The end result is the same emissions from making the steel, plus added shipping = total emissions go up rather than down.

This sort of outcome, far more than household bills, is the real problem with this carbon tax. Completely wrecking important Australian industries. What happens when (not if) there's a war and we can't even produce basic materials such as steel on our own soil? National defence is one of the major reasons the steel, zinc, aluminium and ferro alloy industries were established in the first place (to the point that the first aluminium plant was originally run by a government department, the Australian Aluminium Production Commission, for this very reason).
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Well Smurph, it took me awhile to find that quote, but I think Doug Cameron read it yesterday.
If he didn't, he obviously has worked out, the whole plan is a crock of you know what.
Like you said, not if but when a war, not everyone is as happy with their lot as we are.
 
Well it's that time of the year again when the inevitable heating conversation takes place amongst the masses shocked with their winter power bills.

A lot of people are struggling with household energy costs as it is, and as I've said before I very much doubt that compensation will be sufficient.

Here's some real world bills for real people that I know who have raised the issue in casual discussion over the past few days (bit hard to get away from such discussions at this time of year...).

Family of 2 adults and 2 adult children still living at home.
Electric hot water
Electric cooking
Wood heating
Quarterly power bill was just over $500 after the Hydro employees staff discount and would be similar for all 4 quarters so around $2000 per annum. Cost for firewood = about $1000 per year.

Single male living alone
Electric hot water
Electric cooking
Electric heat pump heating
Quarterly power bill was $580.

Single female living alone (elderly)
Electric hot water
Electric oven, gas cooktop
Electric heat pump heating
Quarterly power bill was $740 after the Pensioner discount. Gas is used for cooktop only and cost would be under $100 a year.

Single female living alone and at home all day (elderly)
Electric hot water
Electric cooking
Electric heat pump heating supplemented by off-peak heating
Quarterly power bill was $807 after the Pensioner discount

Single male
Electric heat pump hot water
Electric oven, gas cooktop
Wood and direct electric heating
Small solar PV system on the roof (8 panels)
Quarterly power bill was $485, half of which was for heating. They use about $400 worth of wood a year also.

Make of it what you will, but anyone claiming that bills of $250 per quarter or something like that are normal is telling lies, is ignoring the cost of gas or other fuels, or lives somewhere that needs no heating or cooling.

It could be argued that Australian households aren't overly efficient and that energy consumption could be reduced. That may well be correct and I agree that it is, but for many the up front cost is out of reach and in any event, the cost still ends up higher than if electricity were cheap.

A lot of people will be seriously harmed financially by further increases in energy costs. It's no secret that many pensioners especially spend their days during winter wrapped up in blankets because they can't afford heating. It's also no secret that disconnection of electricity supply due to non-payment is far more common than it used to be.

It's a sad state of affairs when we have elderly people left shivering in the dark in a supposedly developed country.
 
Those quarterly amounts seem high, Smurf. I have all electricity and, when I'm not running the heat pump for the pool, the average quarterly bill is a bit under $500.
And the eight hours a day of running the pool would account for most of that.

Is the cost per kwh higher in Tasmania than in other States?

Totally agree that it's unacceptable for anyone to have to do without essential heating in cold temperatures, and that the proposed carbon tax 'compensation' is unlikely to be adequate.

Are the electricity suppliers and generators to be permitted to continue ramping up the prices without restriction?
 
Well Smurph, I don't think the penny has dropped with how high the electricity cost has to go up to make renewables competitive with coal.
 
DB008 said:
Surely l'm missing something here?
Click to expand...

You sure are.

Your missing the fact that the UN has been the driver behind global GHG and Climate change research, policy, cooperation and negotiation.

UNFCCC = United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change
COP = Conference of the party's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Framework_Convention_on_Climate_Change

Have a look at the link above...it explains and links to what's been happening for the last 20 years and the actions, structure and support that the UN has provided.

These meetings and conferences etc cost money to stage, the UN has 1000's of employees, projects and 100's of offices world wide..the money to pay for all that comes from national governments.
 
Julia said:
Those quarterly amounts seem high, Smurf. I have all electricity and, when I'm not running the heat pump for the pool, the average quarterly bill is a bit under $500.
And the eight hours a day of running the pool would account for most of that.

Is the cost per kwh higher in Tasmania than in other States?

Totally agree that it's unacceptable for anyone to have to do without essential heating in cold temperatures, and that the proposed carbon tax 'compensation' is unlikely to be adequate.

Are the electricity suppliers and generators to be permitted to continue ramping up the prices without restriction?
Click to expand...

The electricity supply is State Government run and they increase the cost to reflect the actual cost of supply, or so they say.
The carbon tax is going to be a Federal Government tax added to the power producers, to make coal fired power more expensive, in order to make renewables more attractive.
I would assume the power producers will pass this cost on to consumers.
So in answer to the question the prices will ramp up a whole lot more. IMO
 
sptrawler said:
The electricity supply is State Government run and they increase the cost to reflect the actual cost of supply, or so they say.
The carbon tax is going to be a Federal Government tax added to the power producers, to make coal fired power more expensive, in order to make renewables more attractive.
I would assume the power producers will pass this cost on to consumers.
So in answer to the question the prices will ramp up a whole lot more. IMO
Click to expand...

Yes, I get all that, sp, but doesn't there come a point where some intervention has to occur so that ordinary people are not precluded from such a basic necessity as the capacity to cook food and stay reasonably warm in winter?

Perhaps there is going to have to be a % based supplement for all households under X amount of annual income?

There's something amoral about asylum seekers in detention centres rioting and burning buildings because the air conditioning is inadequate, while we have Australian taxpayers struggling to pay basic power bills.
 
Julia said:
Yes, I get all that, sp, but doesn't there come a point where some intervention has to occur so that ordinary people are not precluded from such a basic necessity as the capacity to cook food and stay reasonably warm in winter?

Perhaps there is going to have to be a % based supplement for all households under X amount of annual income?

There's something amoral about asylum seekers in detention centres rioting and burning buildings because the air conditioning is inadequate, while we have Australian taxpayers struggling to pay basic power bills.
Click to expand...

That's what is laughable about the government low income hand out to compensate for the carbon tax. If the government was serious about helping the poor they would link the compensation payout to increases in the cost of electricity.
The real problem with doing that is, it reduces the take for the government.
Actualy I wonder, like you, if the compensation will be indexed?
 
Smurf1976 said:
Make of it what you will, but anyone claiming that bills of $250 per quarter or something like that are normal is telling lies, is ignoring the cost of gas or other fuels, or lives somewhere that needs no heating or cooling.
Click to expand...

Your real people in the real world appear to be doing it tough, however this is the penalty which has to be paid for the privelege of living in a beautiful state with real seasons.

My situation;
Single, living alone.
All electric
Electric hot water system
No artificial heating or cooling
1.5 Kw solar system
Credits on power bills after 6 months with the panels on the roof...$230.

Prior to that my power bills averaged below 100 bucks per quarter.
 
Calliope said:
Prior to that my power bills averaged below 100 bucks per quarter.
Click to expand...
Problem is that there's no way the industry is viable if everyone gets a bill that low. Simply keeping you connected costs at least that much, assuming zero actual consumption. So it works for one household to do it, but it falls in a heap rather spectacularly if everyone does it.

Heating is the real killer in Tas of course, but then the state as a whole is actually more energy efficient than the national average despite also having a very high per capita level of heavy industrial energy use. So it's not a case of inefficient usage, at least not relative to the rest of Australia. It's just that residential space heating is a big energy use, and it is those with the lowest incomes who tend to have the highest usage due to being at home more and (typically) living in less efficient housing. It's all well and good if you own your home and can afford to invest in efficiency, but for those stuck renting or who don't have the capital to invest it's a real problem.

Victoria will face the same situation once gas-fired generation increases, Bass Strait reserves are depleted and the gas price shoots up. That's going to cause a whole lot of pain - Victorian households being amongst the highest consumers of gas in the world and with this level of usage largely "built in" and requiring a small fortune to change (and what are they going to change to?).

At least Tasmanians have the realistic alternative of burning wood which is still fairly cheap ($100 per tonne if you buy in Summer, typical household usage would be 6 tonnes a year), but it's going to be an environmental disaster if/when the residents of Melbourne end up trying the same approach to keep warm. I suspect it's something that the average Victorian hasn't given much thought to (no offence to anyone...) but Victoria's reliance on gas to heat houses, provide hot water and cook dinner is as entrenched as Tasmania's reliance on electricity. Some may be able to change quickly (to what...) but most have no option other than to pay the bills.

Looking specifically at Tasmania, general Light & Power rates are up about 275% since the mid-1990's, with space heating, hot water and off-peak rates up about 175% over that time. Much of that increase has been over the past few years, and it's a huge financial issue for many. With a very limited mains gas network (and the reality that those under financial stress couldn't afford to connect to it anyway) plus the reality that prices for heating oil and LPG went silly years ago, there's not much alternative other than to either pay up, shiver or deal with all the hassle that goes with using wood for heat.

Why the huge increase in power charges in Tas? Well let's just say that it has everything to do with no longer being self sufficient with hydro-electricity, being part of the National Electricity Market and the fact that expensive gas-fired generation is what sets the price these days (markets are made at the margin...). Those in the other states had better get used to this as gas takes over from coal...

My real point though is that in a developed country with such vast energy resources this situation just shouldn't exist in the first place. Those shivering in the dark are doing so for one reason only - politics. :2twocents
 
Well the actual upside to us going green and changing over to expensive electricity, it will free up a lot of our coal for export.
That is why India and China are buying up our coal mines, they can then send our cheap coal , which we don't want to use, back to their countries.
Then burn it to make cheap electricity to undercut us and then sell us their cheap products.
Hopefully blankets will get cheaper.LOL
 

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