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Israel - Palestine

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Where have you been?
I was so worried about you!
I rang all the hospitals and the Police!

I sent out a search party.
 



Whatever...

Bali bombings
Trade centre - twice and 9/11 (1993 + 2001)
Madrid bombings (2004)
Australian embassy - Jakarta (2004)
London bombings (2005)
Mumbai co-ordinated attacks (2008)
Hotan Attack in China (2011)
Boston bombings (2013)
Lee Rigby killed in broad daylight in London (2013)
Westgate Shopping Mall Attack - Kenya (2013)

All in the name of Allah. What a joke.
 

But DB, Islam is a religion of peace...it is the rest of us who Iuutzu calls the "uniformed and lazy" and of course the Jews, who won't submit to the rule of Allah, who are the unpeaceful bastards


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opi...uires-submission/story-e6frg6zo-1227027369482
 
No side is right and wrong. People have been born in a mess and they are just trying to get out alive. Its just a war. You cant say who's right and wrong. You've got a group of elitist Zionists on one side orchestrating a plan and on the other side you've got a group of people who are not willing to compromise and believe the Koran has no errors in it.

Human society is at fault here. Society is very ill. There is never going to be a solution. We are just going to do what we do best. Destroy what ever is in our way to make us feel safe.

In reality the best thing for this planet is the total extinction of the human race. Animals deserve to live on this planet much more than us.
 

First, don't mistake Israel with Jewish people.

I came from Vietnam, from my studies I am very critical of the South Vietnamese gov't when it was in power. My grandparents and uncles all served in the South Vnese armies, I know people who served in it but I was, still is, critical of its policies.

I was and is critical of the current Communist Gov't in Vietnam... does my critique of VNese gov't mean I hate the VNese people, or that I group all Vnese with its gov't?

So stop this nonsense about criticism of Israel = hating Jews.



I heard Abbott talking about "Team Australia" today... I'm all for that.

So for the Jewish Australian who go and join the IDF army fighting in Gaza, are they part of Team Australia too?
Last I know, all Australians have to sworn their allegiance to Australia and its head of State - the Queen of England... I don't think the Queen of England live in Tel Aviv and I'm pretty sure the Australian armed forces aren't the Israeli Defense Force.


----

You do realise that the Islam worship the same God, the exact same God, as Judaism and Christianity, right?

I don't know the details of any religion, but from the little that I do know, the only difference is Islam see Moses and Jesus Christ as also another Prophet of God (Allah), that Christ is a Prophet, not a son of God. Mohammed is also another Prophet of God.

I'm not qualified to discussed the good and bad religion, so maybe you can accuse me of being naive and the religion of Judaism and Christianity is a good religion while Islam preaches hate and terror - even though they believe in the same God... anyway, that's beside the point.

Though it's sad that any person could actually believe an entire race of people could worship evil while a different group (their group), worship the good and peaceful and righteous God... even though there's something evil about gay marriage, about abortion, even though entire populations has been wiped out in the name of that God of theirs too... but alright.

------

With security risks... you seriously think a bunch of terrorists could be anywhere as dangerous to US/Western powers as say Russia, India, China or Germany?

Forget about the moral and justice and legal question of what Israel is doing... look at the issue from a national interests perspective and you will see if supporting Israel is to the US and Western powers long term interests.

The Pivot to Asia should already be telling you what America is thinking.
The closer ties the US is trying to reopen with Iran, against Israel's wishes, should already be telling you the game plan.

----

With regards to the moral high grounds... no one is supporting any act of war or act of terror, no matter who does it.

But to claim a moral high ground, like Israel has and continues to do... yea, there are some that will believe that.

Just cause, just wars, fighting for democracy, fighting for survival, good guys and evil doers...

It's like a song I heard where the guy begs his lover to keep lying to him, to please make up things he could believe because the truth is just too painful, because the truth will mean he will have to let her go...

Bloody tragedy... unfortunately here, millions have to needlessly live under occupation, live under extreme poverty, and every now and then, being systematically slaughtered and made homeless... then be blamed for forcing a noble hand to do ignoble deeds on them.
 

I agree with your sentiment, but there's a lot of misconception in what you say with regards to this particular conflict.

If you look at the US and Mexico. Using certain pretexts, the US pretty much stolen half of Mexico. What is now California, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas etc... those were Mexican territories and the US fought and took it.

The smart thing the US does is it then draw up the borders, defend it, and Mexico - being a weaker state, just have to take it and move on with what's left of their land. Peace was made etc. etc.

Here, Israel thought otherwise.

Using the tragedy of the Holocaust it got 55% of Palestine... the Palestinians of course didn't like it, try to fight, couldn't fight and slowly accept their fate as all weak power must accept.

Israel, not being as clever as other powers, chose not to draw their borders as agreed by the UN... instead chose expansion.

It now controls some 80% of historic Palestine... in the West Bank, it took a further 60% of the most fertile and strategic land, divide and establish outposts and special roads for Israelis only on what's left... control all natural resources... and expect to keep doing it for another 50 years or until the Palestinians just all die or something.

---

"There has never been an instant of a country benefiting from protracted warfare."
- Sun Tzu

I guess what does Sun Tzu know about modern warfare or politics.
 

While I can't say all religion because I don't know all religion, but it's pretty clear that when you believe that your God is the only God, it's only natural that all others are savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc. etc. to be brought under your one and only God...

I think just about all religion believe their God is the only, is the one and only God...

For some interests, look at the policies Israel is using within its own borders in order to keep Israel a Jewish State.
It's as racist as any country could get. I mean, laws that allow a neighbourhood to ban any resident that does not suit its religious character? Asking its citizens to swear allegiance to the Jewish faith...
 


As with any crimes, it's too simplistic to take some idiot's interpretation/justification for the act and believe they must be right - that Allah must have told them to do it.

You won't find me excusing terrorism, and I have never blame Israel for all terrorist activities against Australia/the Western allies... but I agree with real experts on the matter that unconditional support for Israel by the US (they're mostly Americans scholars and experts) is ONE of the major factors causing hatred and radical extremism against the US and western countries.

No one is saying that the US or the West ought to abandon Israel, or saying that Israel intentionally harm the West... But these experts are saying that the actions Israel takes to further its own interests, and the West's clear, vocal and unconditional support of those acts, it's these that's harming Western interests.

Take Australia... it probably costs us some dozens of billions since 2001 to beef up our anti-terrorism capabilities.

While we might still spend the same amount regardless of our support for Israel, it might, maybe, be a little less reckless if our politicians were to be a bit more critical of Israel when its actions are just wrong? Maybe? Maybe it make us a couple of friends or entice a few more informants if they see that our leadership also respect their Arab Australians as equally as they respect and listen to the Jewish Australians.

I don't think it's harmful to our interests to be neutral regarding other countries' conflicts; might do our democracy some good to not support one group over another.
 
luutzu said:
but it's pretty clear that when you believe that your God is the only God, it's only natural that all others are savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc. etc. to be brought under your one and only God...
Click to expand...

So do you think "it's only natural" there can be no peace until all other "savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc." are subject to the rule of Allah, i.e. your god?
 

Does it make the meat taste better?
 
Calliope said:
So do you think "it's only natural" there can be no peace until all other "savages, barbarians, lost sheeps etc." are subject to the rule of Allah, i.e. your god?
Click to expand...

I don't have any God. Don't believe in any either.

Was saying that it's only natural for any religion to believe in no other God but their own god/s. Doesn't make sense to worship your own god while at the same time believe another god could possibly exist also.

Some religion may believe and teach that, I don't know 'cause i'm not an expert on the subject. But from the Ten Commandment - there are no God before me, something like that?

Even Bush II says something like the Taliban hijacked a peaceful religion and turn it to hate or something along that line.

Religion, like any other commodity, could be use and interpreted one way or another... It's pretty amazing though, to managed to persuade people who believe in the same God (God, Jehovah [?], Allah - all the one and the same God) that their God is better than their other God.

----

Anyway, Israel is an economically, militarily, powerful country with friends in high places. So it can do whatever it wanted to, and can say whatever it want to say... Just not sure doing what it is doing is to its long term interests.

I mean, if you listen to Max Blumenthal [see his lecture on 'Goliath - Life and Loathing in Greater Israel'), or listen to Norman Finkelstein, Miko Peppe, Noam Chomsky, Illan Pappe -- all, btw, are Jewish... and they're all saying how Israel has become an extremely racist state, a place Chomsky, who actually lived there in the 50s, wouldn't want to live at all now...

You can say that the Muslims are worst, and I don't know but say I agree with you... it still doesn't make Israel more noble or less wrong.

Something is wrong when you have people going on the street, goes to a wedding and protest against a marriage between an Arab and a Jew living in Israel. Chanting "Death to Arabs" and "may your town burn"... It's wrong to then hear your politicians say it's part of free speech. I would have thought that that's hate speech but yea...

---

Anyway, Israel is on the path to self-destruction, it just doesn't realised it yet.

And I'm just quoting actually intelligent and informed scholars who live and breathe the situation on that conclusion.

It's quite funny, in a sad way, watching this unfolding.

You have Uncle Sam trying to stop an increasingly richer China from making trouble and pushing US influence out of the South and East China Seas, you try to stop China's current funding of an opposition to your new friends in Myanmar; Then there's some trouble with a potential uprising against a friendly gov't in Pakistan you helped into power; then the Ukraine and trade sanctions against a nuclear power that is Russia; then maybe a potential challenge from India; ISIS, that 14 trillion in debt etc. etc.

The last thing you need is to constantly funding, then stand up in front of a changing world proclaiming your love and total support for a state that just flatten entire neighbourhoods of already poor and desperate people.

I don't think it help your strategic, financial or moral standing in the world to keep doing that.

Then the consequences of dealing with all these international issues as well as issues at home.

First from potential extremist Arab sympathisers, then the neutral segment of your society who wonder why is it that my representatives doesn't unanimously agree on anything like health care, roads and infrastructure investments in my area, funding my kids education and help my economy... yet they all, 100% of them, unanimously love Israel, give it $3 billions in foreign aid a year... and in return my president got lectured to by this Bibi guy.


"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice" saids Martin Luther King Jr.

Israel has long ago lost that moral standing, it will soon lose the self-interested positions of the US and other powers.
 
I think halal is when u slit the throat and let the blood run dry. If done correctly its painless and the meat taste better of course. But I rekon a bullet to the brain would still be less painfull haha. Poor animals.
 
luutzu said:
... being systematically slaughtered and made homeless ...
Click to expand...

This is a very contentious post!
I don't mean to make light of your petty mistake!

Being systematically slaughtered means you are dead and no longer need a home.
 
darkhorse70 said:
I think halal is when u slit the throat and let the blood run dry. If done correctly its painless and the meat taste better of course. But I rekon a bullet to the brain would still be less painfull haha. Poor animals.
Click to expand...
If someone could provide a link to assurance that bleeding out is painless, I'd like to see it.
Poor animals indeed.
 
burglar said:
This is a very contentious post!
I don't mean to make light of your petty mistake!

Being systematically slaughtered means you are dead and no longer need a home.
Click to expand...


If you look at the map of the West Bank below, what is left of Palestinian land is Area A and B - the coloured tan; the brown is Area C - completely controlled and settled by Israel.

It's obvious that it's divide and conquered.

No Palestinians are allowed to build or live in Area C, no Palestinians are allowed on the roads between those segregated areas they are allowed to live in; East Jerusalem is annexed.

Don't think you can get more systematic than that.


I saw a few interviews and lectures by Max Blumenthal - a Jewish American journalist living or at least was living in Israel when he made his observations... He said there's not even a question of two state in Israel politics and leadership - all parties agree that there will be refugee camps for the Palestinians, the question is how big or small to make it.

He said there's this accusations that the Palestinians just don't work hard, just neglect their farm... well, Israel controls and divert all water resources from land they don't want in the WB, took the most fertile land and resources. Hard to farm when you have no water or good land.

Blumenthal and Chomsky have pointed out how Israel systematically take land in the WB - they send in their bulldozer, smash the tin sheds or whatever houses on land they want - claiming that it's for security reasons, that it's a new military outpost, send in a few troops to station there then a few weeks later, set up infrastructures for new settlements.



Currently in Gaza, before the current incursion... an UNWRA spokesman was interviewed and said 95% of drinking water in Gaza are salted, I've seen news clips of Gazan saying no tap water could be use because it's foul, that his mum use it to wash her hands and her entire hands are infected after a while... and there's, some have said, a 1KM "safety" zone inside Gaza's border with Israel - that no Palestinian farmer could farm in those area or conduct any activity up to their own border.

1KM out of some 5 to 7 KM is a lot of land to waste in such a small area.

You have seen the damages done to Gaza the last month... some 300, 000 people are homeless, about half the population displaced. Some 10 000 Gazans sustained injuries - with no home, little power, little food, little medical care... those injured might not recovered quickly. I mean, an injury here could be losing limbs, not just a small gash or a sprained ankle.


So OK, it might not be slaughter, but I don't think you need to build gas chambers to kill people.
It is, however, systematic.

----

Israel and its supporters could point to Hamas' charter, point to how the US and Israel call it a terrorist organisation... and as I've said, I don't know Hamas and so can't defend or criticise it, but say it's as horrific and despicable as any terrorists are.... What happen to Arafat?

I saw a picture of Arafat shaking hands with Bill Clinton when his PLA/PLO [?] remove the call for Israel's destruction from its charter some decades ago.

There are countless peace talks since then with his PLO, and all the scholars I've heard from have said Israel rejected any and all Palestinians concessions. They wanted Arafat to give up everything, which he can't do... I mean, giving up 80% of your land is a bit too much for anyone, to give more?

And the last time I saw of him was his compound being bombed. i recently saw a senior Palestinian negotiator saying Arafat was poisoned by Plutonium something... the man said there's no evidence who did it, but before the poisoning, Israel's then PM and other senior leaders have called for Arafat's death and so he died... maybe just a coincidence.

----

So yea, Israel can do whatever it want to whoever it want to... Just it's a bit ugly to be so powerful, so abusive of that power... then claim righteousness, victimisation, self defense, peace loving defender of Jewish-only democracy blah blah... and any critique of Israel is unfair, is bigotry, is anti-semitism.




 

Lets add another one to that list...

‘Evil straight from the pits of hell': American journalist James Foley reportedly beheaded by ISIS

Absolutely awful news. Media are reporting that journalist James Foley, captured in 2012, has been beheaded by ISIS.

Click to expand...

http://twitchy.com/2014/08/19/evil-straight-from-the-pits-of-hell-american-journalist-james-foley-reportedly-beheaded-by-isis/
 
This just reinforces in my mind that religion should have no place in the running of any country's government. This includes the USA/ Britain/ Australian "Christian" based governments.

And to get back on topic, the setting up of Israel as a "Jewish state" was a big mistake.
 
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