Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

wayneL said:

You're missing something though Grasshopper.

Who have been the subject of Islamic terrorism?

It is not the perpetrators of such wars and interference etc, vis a vis Western *Governments/Military*, it is ordinary folks not remotely interested in fighting, Men, Women, little boys, little girls.

Just like the innocent folks the Evil bastard ran over with his truck, just out for a nice night out to celebrate a holiday.

This will harden our hearts and set us ordinary folk against them... and indeed all Muslims.

It will not end well and innocents will suffer the most.

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So there are no "collateral damage" committed by the coalition of the willing?

You read about weddings being bombs/droned right? Know why? Due to "signature" targeting - i.e. if there's a group of Muslims getting together, chances are they're up to no good - so take them out.

But let's ignore the "opps" our drone operators and military operations cause - that, we're told by our good looking news media, are accidents made with the best of intentions. And as the FBI will tell you, it's the intention that counts.

What about the tens of millions of refugees and internally displaced Muslims and Arabs from the wars we started there?

I'm betting they were just sitting home after a hard day's work tryng to put food on the table.. and now there's no home to go to and only the desert and a tent - if they're lucky.

Gringotts Bank said:

Idealism is dangerous - that's my conclusion.

The Idealism being pursued by Western politicians worldwide is: "be open and accepting of all". Such a mantra is better as an aim, not a way of life. This is the critical error they have made.

Growth towards such an aim means that sometimes expansion/openness/acceptance is the right way, and sometimes contraction/closure/judgment/rejection is the right way forward.

If you're holding a house party, do you advertise it on social media? Sure you do... if you want your house completely trashed. As you clean up the next day and assess the enormous damage, you can console yourself that you are open and accepting of all. Not too concerned about the impact on the neighbours, you can rest easy that you are a "good person".

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Say we close our borders, don't take in anymore (Muslim) folks... what do we do about the ones that's already here?

tell them to abandon their religion? Dress "properly"? Democratise the heck out of them until their Allah is God?

Seriously, you think our leaders are being idealistic? Teachers, nurses... you may find idealists there... not in corridors or power.

wayneL said:

Fantastic analogy. True, true.

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How is that analogy true?

Our official policy is open borders to the cool kids - ones with money, lots of it. Those cool kids can come in and trash or buy the place all they want.

The uncool kids... the ones who flee on foot, cross the desert and the seas seeking refuge. Go away you dirty illegal terrorists who's running away from war and terrorism.

Typical of all lefties, you love your strawman fallacies grasshopper

luutzu said:

Say we close our borders, don't take in anymore (Muslim) folks... what do we do about the ones that's already here?

tell them to abandon their religion? Dress "properly"? Democratise the heck out of them until their Allah is God?

Seriously, you think our leaders are being idealistic? Teachers, nurses... you may find idealists there... not in corridors or power.

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Radically different cultures should never be mixed in together. It's never worked anywhere in the world.

It would be good if it was possible, but it's not. Let them do their thing in the ME. They can pray all day and wear whatever headgear they like.

luutzu said:

So over the next few days, France and allies is going to bomb a few sites somewhere in the ME. And if we follow the logic - that we have been at war and if there are known terrorists or some potential terrorist we'd bomb them already - then what we'd be doing is killing more innocent people, people around targets we thought weren't warrant a few tomahawk and hellfire... until now.

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I agree for the foreseeable future that if one fragment of the snake is left alive after being "obliterated" (an American senator quote) there is the possibility of continuity. There will either be satisfaction for the jihadists, meaning the war against people they feel oppressed by has achieved its goals or an intergenerational hate fest that will eventually peter out as the hatred dissipates.

Gringotts Bank said:

Idealism is dangerous - that's my conclusion.

The Idealism being pursued by Western politicians worldwide is: "be open and accepting of all". Such a mantra is better as an aim, not a way of life. This is the critical error they have made.

Growth towards such an aim means that sometimes expansion/openness/acceptance is the right way, and sometimes contraction/closure/judgment/rejection is the right way forward.

If you're holding a house party, do you advertise it on social media? Sure you do... if you want your house completely trashed. As you clean up the next day and assess the enormous damage, you can console yourself that you are open and accepting of all. Not too concerned about the impact on the neighbours, you can rest easy that you are a "good person".

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My analogy is that there are many cats in the world but they all don't live together. The reality is that all ideologies do not mix well and oppressive ideologies live in isolation or are repelled. People move toward being freer not into ideological slavery, especially in Australia.

Gringotts Bank said:

Radically different cultures should never be mixed in together. It's never worked anywhere in the world.

It would be good if it was possible, but it's not. Let them do their thing in the ME. They can pray all day and wear whatever headgear they like.

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That's 100% correct. The English (country) microcosm of Islamic Law levering into a society is an example.

wayneL said:

Typical of all lefties, you love your strawman fallacies grasshopper

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I don't think it's some made up stuff. I'm not even criticising it either. What is it? Skilled migration.

If a foreigner, be they Muslim or Arab or Chinese... if they have a company to sponsor, or if they have enough cash in the bank and certain skills... pass security and health checks, then they're all welcomed. No?

Poor or refugees with nothing... No! terrorist! Illegal! Religious fanatic!

I guess there are realities we just don't want to see.

Gringotts Bank said:

Radically different cultures should never be mixed in together. It's never worked anywhere in the world.

It would be good if it was possible, but it's not. Let them do their thing in the ME. They can pray all day and wear whatever headgear they like.

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Australia is an example of a very successful multi-cultural society. There are many other examples, even in Europe. Actually, Europe was one of the most successful until past couple of decades. Reasons for the decline? Economics, Austerity and the blaming of bad policies on the poor, the weak and the migrants.

We all travel now and then right? To different countries, seeing different cultures. Why is it that we don't have Muslims in Indonesia all attacking us the moment we step off the plane? Or the Thais or Chinese etc. etc. Maybe because we're not at war with them.

Anyway, we're focusing on the wrong issue, and in doing so, we're putting both ourselves and other innocent people here and abroad at risk. Heck, I just got home from Paris... and believe me, my wife and I have lost sleep over travelling there. That crazy shiet in Nice that terrorist did could easily had happen to us. So I'm not theorising and ignoring reality.

But we have to stop idolising our leaders and politicians. Think critically.

They've taken us on this war on terror for a while now... we've apparently spared no expense, and they apparently don't mind sacrificing other people's kids... are we safer after all that?

Wysiwyg said:

I agree for the foreseeable future that if one fragment of the snake is left alive after being "obliterated" (an American senator quote) there is the possibility of continuity. There will either be satisfaction for the jihadists, meaning the war against people they feel oppressed by has achieved its goals or an intergenerational hate fest that will eventually peter out as the hatred dissipates...

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If we leave it up to politicians, the wars in the ME will never end. Even if the world no longer runs on oil.

3rd party view
I am not a Muslim , nor a Christian or a Jew,
To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity
All over the world both religions have tried to convert others and have racked havoc in the process.

Christians did it with a mixture of commerce/ social service and war but the "agenda" is always to convert others
Muslims did it with the help of war and brutality and same agenda

Having said that I must say that there is some "fundamental issue" with some followers of Islam and wider democratic multi faith society.
Other religions ( including Christian ) dont seems to have the same problem or at least to the same extent.
The west is realizing this problem now , other religions have experienced it for long time ago. Before 9/11 India ( which is a multifaith republic irrespective of the fact that it is dominated by one religion) for example has suffered Islamic terrorist both home grown and overseas,

A question to the bleeding heart lefty and Muslim:
- Have you got the guts to call spade a spade? Every Muslim is not a terrorist agreed but many terrorist seems to be of Muslim faith! why? have you investigated?
- What is paramount Nationhood or Religion specially if you are a resident and citizen of a multi faith country?, You ask me I say Country first as long as that country is based on liberal democratic values
- If your anger towards Western Christian race is because of some local injustice ( Palestine) I can understand the anger , but how does that make it ok to go around the world and kill people? So lets use the same logic
India ( 80% Hindu) was ruled by British for more than 150 years, and that ended only 70 years ago
So using the "logic of oppressed" the Indian ( Mainly Hindus) should be going around killing Britishers sine 1947...

How many Hindus/ Budhists and Sikhs you see blowing themselves in the western world?

but are you capable and willing to co exists with other faiths? without calling them Kafirs?

A question to the R wing fanatics or those who seat on fence

- In the western world are you against just Muslim migration or Miigration in total?
- You think the Muslim suicide bombers is a barbaric act, correct but what do you call the drone attacks just because they look like video games are the Cool?

So lets be balanced in analyzing this lets not be naive...

Our heritage is Christian, which I have said a few times, and still run through our parliament.
The foundations of Western Civilization.

To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity

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To look at France and History --

One of the most important events in all of history occurred on October 10, 732 – in France.
This was a massively decisive event in Europe: it basically meant that Christianity and Western Civilisation would continue.
Had a different outcome occurred, many historians think that Islam would have taken over all of Europe.

Thus we must know a little bit about a key battle in history: the Battle of Tours, also known as the Battle of Poitiers.
It was one of those dividing lines in human history.

The Frankish military leader Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer), defeated the invading Muslim forces of the Umayyad Caliphate which were twice the number of his forces, and stopping Islamic expansion into the rest of Europe.

Tink said:

Our heritage is Christian, which I have said a few times, and still run through our parliament.
The foundations of Western Civilization.



To look at France and History --

One of the most important events in all of history occurred on October 10, 732 – in France.
This was a massively decisive event in Europe: it basically meant that Christianity and Western Civilisation would continue.
Had a different outcome occurred, many historians think that Islam would have taken over all of Europe.

Thus we must know a little bit about a key battle in history: the Battle of Tours, also known as the Battle of Poitiers.
It was one of those dividing lines in human history.

The Frankish military leader Charles Martel (Charles the Hammer), defeated the invading Muslim forces of the Umayyad Caliphate which were twice the number of his forces, and stopping Islamic expansion into the rest of Europe.

Click to expand...

And the west survived and prospered for nearly 1300y before inaptitude and treason a la Merkel finished the war without a single fire shot and let Europe fall back in the dark ages.This will be completed no doubt by 2032.

mjim said:

3rd party view
I am not a Muslim , nor a Christian or a Jew,
To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity


So lets be balanced in analyzing this lets not be naive...

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It's Muslims against everyone, China, Russia, as you pointed out India, etc. I think it's basically driven by a pedigree tribe whose breeding is equivalent to rogue animals ... it's in their DNA and promulgated by another huge breed of the traditionally subjugated drones who attach themselves like schoolkids to the dominant bully.

Why we see examples of genetics and selective breeding at play in dogs, cats, horses, etc, but ignore it in humans escapes me. It's nought to do with eugenics or superior race, but a simple acceptance that people are different at their core and will gravitate to people with similar primal drivers.

Meanwhile Maleny Milk:

Maleny Milk in QLD refuse to become halal certified, now they have gone one better and put the Christian logo on their product.

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but a simple acceptance that people are different at their core and will gravitate to people with similar primal drivers.

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Most of it (religion) is inherited, passed down from father to son with indoctrination beginning at the youngest ages (Baptism and whatever Muslims do), and then religious schools after that.

The first step in getting rid of this nonsense is for the taxpayer to stop funding religious schools and prevent religion being taught in State schools and to expel students for proselytizing.

But of course that would be hurting people's feelings wouldn't it ?

We don't live in a dictatorship, Rumpole, therefore I believe in choice, as I have stated in the education thread, and that goes for private hospitals also.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25851&page=6

SirRumpole said:

Most of it (religion) is inherited, passed down from father to son with indoctrination beginning at the youngest ages (Baptism and whatever Muslims do), and then religious schools after that.

The first step in getting rid of this nonsense is for the taxpayer to stop funding religious schools and prevent religion being taught in State schools and to expel students for proselytizing.

But of course that would be hurting people's feelings wouldn't it ?

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I have muslim acquaintances who were sent to Catholic schools by their parents and did the same with theirs kids.

I think religion is a secondary driver for thuggish behaviour, along with poverty, mob mentality, etc. I'd even go so far as to say extreme brutality may even be a learned attitude. The real core in charge of mayhem are more likely cold and calculating who make trouble because they can, manipulating the gullible in the process.

Tink said:

We don't live in a dictatorship, Rumpole, therefore I believe in choice, as I have stated in the education thread, and that goes for private hospitals also.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25851&page=6

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Certainly you can choose Tink, but not with my money.

If you want to pay choose private education or health, then be prepared to pay for it with your own money and without taxpayer subsidies.

mjim said:

3rd party view
I am not a Muslim , nor a Christian or a Jew,
To us this is a age old conflict between Islam and Christianity
All over the world both religions have tried to convert others and have racked havoc in the process.

Christians did it with a mixture of commerce/ social service and war but the "agenda" is always to convert others
Muslims did it with the help of war and brutality and same agenda

Having said that I must say that there is some "fundamental issue" with some followers of Islam and wider democratic multi faith society.
Other religions ( including Christian ) dont seems to have the same problem or at least to the same extent.
The west is realizing this problem now , other religions have experienced it for long time ago. Before 9/11 India ( which is a multifaith republic irrespective of the fact that it is dominated by one religion) for example has suffered Islamic terrorist both home grown and overseas,

A question to the bleeding heart lefty and Muslim:
- Have you got the guts to call spade a spade? Every Muslim is not a terrorist agreed but many terrorist seems to be of Muslim faith! why? have you investigated?
- What is paramount Nationhood or Religion specially if you are a resident and citizen of a multi faith country?, You ask me I say Country first as long as that country is based on liberal democratic values
- If your anger towards Western Christian race is because of some local injustice ( Palestine) I can understand the anger , but how does that make it ok to go around the world and kill people? So lets use the same logic
India ( 80% Hindu) was ruled by British for more than 150 years, and that ended only 70 years ago
So using the "logic of oppressed" the Indian ( Mainly Hindus) should be going around killing Britishers sine 1947...

How many Hindus/ Budhists and Sikhs you see blowing themselves in the western world?

but are you capable and willing to co exists with other faiths? without calling them Kafirs?

A question to the R wing fanatics or those who seat on fence

- In the western world are you against just Muslim migration or Miigration in total?
- You think the Muslim suicide bombers is a barbaric act, correct but what do you call the drone attacks just because they look like video games are the Cool?

So lets be balanced in analyzing this lets not be naive...

Click to expand...

I don't believe in this Lefty/Righty stuff. We're just people who see things differently on certain issue (and likewise would agree on other issue). But let's address the issues you raised.

- Have you got the guts to call spade a spade? Every Muslim is not a terrorist agreed but many terrorist seems to be of Muslim faith! why? have you investigated?


Yea, we call a spade a spade. If a Muslim commit act of terrorism, we call it terrorism. If a White person commit terrorism, we also call it terrorism.

Terrorists are all Muslims because we in the West call murderous crimes by Muslim "terrorism". So when "we" or our ally drone or flatten city blocks, killing countless innocent people - it's called what? Collateral Damage? Technical error?

But if we define Terrorism as a violent act on civilians/soft target, designed to serve a political/military objective, then those carried out by Muslims against their enemy are simply murderous acts of war carried out by a weaker opponent against their enemy.

It's a tool of those fighting asymetric/guerrilla warfare.

Give the same group advanced weapon systems and they'd gladly do the same shiet (or much worst atrocities) without having to blow themselves up.

So terrorism and terrorists is not a Muslim or Islamic thing. It's an act of war, tit for tat thing.

So why then are terrorists carrying out terrorism on our soil all Muslims? Maybe because we're invading or controlling just about all Islamic/Arab countries in the world (except for Indonesia until recently)? Some Muslim and Arabs might not like their country being invaded and thought to bring to war to its enemy.



- What is paramount Nationhood or Religion specially if you are a resident and citizen of a multi faith country?, You ask me I say Country first as long as that country is based on liberal democratic values


If country first as long as its value align with yours then it ought to be value-first.

History, both ancient and current, have plenty of examples where liberal, enlightened, advanced, democratic and otherwise awesome country doing plenty of nasty, barbaric stuff (on "other" people).

Should a citizen of such country support such barbarism because it's their country?

Part of being enlightened and have value systems worth shouting about is to be objective, call a spade a spade and thereby lose friends and going nowhere in the world.


- If your anger towards Western Christian race is because of some local injustice ( Palestine) I can understand the anger , but how does that make it ok to go around the world and kill people? So lets use the same logic
India ( 80% Hindu) was ruled by British for more than 150 years, and that ended only 70 years ago
So using the "logic of oppressed" the Indian ( Mainly Hindus) should be going around killing Britishers sine 1947...

It's never OK to kill people. Terrorists can justify it, but it is never justifiable.

But your example of British imperialism in India and today's imperialism against Muslim/Arab is false. That is, the Arabs are currently still being oppressed and colonised. There's a bunch of foreign military bases and boots on their ground kicking their azz and taking their oil.

So Western colonialism in the ME didn't end when the British empire shrunk - the British were forced out by the American after WW2. The American model their imperial ambition on that of the British (one that's used by all previous imperial power anyway)... the model is to support and armed certain group, let them carry out their peacekeepings, built whatever palaces they want as long as the oil, the cash and other loots flow where you want it to... and just in case they get out of line, you got a few battalion stationed off just over the horizon.

So colonialism and all those bad stuff didn't end after two atomic bombs were dropped. It's the same ways of "great powers" doing their great deeds and dividing up the world to exploit, again. This time with the two powers that survived Hitler and winning the race to Berlin scooping up Hitler's military/industrial brain trust.

That or, of course, we in the West go forth and really, seriously, honestly, civilise and democratize countries with a lot of oil and great strategic advantages - even if it mean having to fund religious nuts of a state like the Saudis or the Israelis; or Saddam (before we don't like him anymore); or overthrowing democratic Iran and installing the Shah.