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Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

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Sorry that is incorrect. The 'proper path' for muslims to follow is to emulate the life of Muhammad. There is nothing else.

We must understand that Muslims are expected to be like, and to think like, their prophet. As such, their attitudes, beliefs, thoughts and actions come to reflect his personality and mind. Since Muhammad is the model for all that is righteous in Islam, it is expected that his followers emulate him in every way.
 

What does "armed prophet" mean to you? It's what Machiavelli used to describe Moses and Mohammad in advising how Princes and head of state should act.

As Chomsky said, all nations were born from violence. That is not to excuse or to explain it away. That is just reality. And to those who succeed and managed to establish kingdoms and colonies... their descendant and their people will write histories and glorify their deeds, will whitewash all atrocities, and all their children will want to be like them.

Do you want me to give examples other than those of Muhammad and the Muslims?


As Einstein said, peace cannot be attain through war; it can only be attain through understanding.

Didn't Jesus say something like "let those without sin cast the first stone"?
 
pixel said:
But I hope to Reason (can't say "to God") that you're wrong and Islam will undergo its own Reformation from within.
Click to expand...

pixel, I used to think the same way until I started paying attention to ex-muslims. Again let me quote* Ali Sina:

Islam is nothing but a tool of domination that was invented by a psychopath narcissist and that any thought of reforming it is futile. Islam cannot be reformed, but it can be eradicated. You can’t get rid of a lie by reforming it. This requires telling more lies. To get rid of a lie all is required is to tell the truth.

*PS: I quote Ali Sina extensively only because his book is written in a style that is particularly easy to read. There are other scholarly books that will tell you very much the same things but they are heavy going when it comes to reading them.

And in this context I would like to pose this question again:
What could be the possible motive for people to speak out openly and vociferously against Islam when they do so at great risk to their personal lives and when their detractors do not face the same risk.
 

Let's assume that we're Arabs living in the ME... and for whatever reason or whatever evil deeds our dear leaders committed against the West, our country and our people are attacked and controlled.

What would we do? We love Western democracy and its values? We dream of going to school and university? Or do we turn to the deeds of our heroes and prophet? Get courage and inspirations from them and work to drive out those we perceive as invaders?

If Churchill could turn to the Caesars and the Roman Empire for inspirations; if the Mongolian could worship Genghis Khan as its heroic founder; if the Americans would celebrate Columbus as a great discoverer (and ignore all the natives he killed directly)... are we really going to hold grudges against the Muslims for worshipping the founder of their faith and creator of their country?

Heck, I read before that even after WW2, most Germans still admire Hitler and were abusive to the children of that Colonel that tried to assassinate him (played by Tom Cruise in Valkyrie).
 
luutzu said:
Do you want me to give examples other than those of Muhammad and the Muslims?
Click to expand...
No. Please let’s try to keep to the subject of this thread, which is Islam.

luutzu said:
As Einstein said, peace cannot be attain through war; it can only be attain through understanding.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately muslims don’t think like this because Islam completely contradicts Einstein.

The word ‘Islam’ means ‘submission’ and according to Islam, 'Peace' can only be attained by subduing all non-Muslims and making them subordinate to Islamic rule.

The non-Muslim countries are for muslims a House of War. It is the duty of every Muslim to wage jihad in the House of War, and to fight, kill and subdue non-Muslims until that land is converted into a House of 'Peace'.
 

Sell books and get paid interviews.

Trust me, all religion have its extremists. You do not want to mess with any of them, from any religion. Try to go to Israel and mock Moses or Judaism; or to any religious group and poke fun at their saviour. I dare you.


Again, if you are right that Muslims are violent and will kill any of its critics... are there only two Muslims in France to "avenge the Prophet"?
 

Iuutzu, you have stumped me with this. I can't figure out how it connects with the thread topic and the flow of our discussion thus far. So I think I will call it a night for now.
Once again, thanks for the discussion. I don't expect us to ever reach any kind of agreement but the discussion is on the record and visitors to this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions.
 

That's wrong.


http://www.islamawareness.net/Jihad/jihad_article001.html
"Justifications and Conditions for War

War may become necessary only to stop evil from triumphing in a way that would corrupt the earth (2:251). For Muslims to participate in war there must be valid justifications and strict conditions must be fulfilled. A thorough survey of the relevant verses of the Qur’an shows that it is consistent throughout with regard to these rulings on the justification of war, and its conduct, termination and consequences.

War in Islam as regulated by the Qur’an and hadith has been subject to many distortions by Western scholars and even by some Muslim writers. These are due either to misconceptions about terminology or – above all – using quotations taken out of context.[2] Nowhere in the Qur’an is changing people’s religion given as a cause for waging war. The Qur’an gives a clear instruction that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). It states that people will remain different (11:118), they will always have different religions and ways and this is an unalterable fact (5:48). God tells the Prophet that most people will not believe, ‘however eagerly you may want them to’ (12:103)[3] .........


------
 

Trying to say that good and evil, as much as we like to think it's an objective fact, is a relative term... especially when it comes to war and peace.

"Thou shall not kill". Leave it at that.

To kill then say but... but the deserve it, but they started it... we're kidding ourselves saying we kill for good while they kill for evil. That apply to all sides.
 
Wow oh Wow …. I will leave this for tomorrow as I am very tired but I will not let blatant taqiyyah go unanswered.
 

All of this is false and deceptive because of the Koran’s principle of “Abrogration” and a trick used by Islamic scholars to deceive non-muslims (as permitted by taqiyya). Unfortunately, to explain this requires a fairly lengthy post but I hope you will persevere and read it:

The Koran is divided by scholars into two parts; the Koran of Mecca and the Koran of Medina. The common deception that Muslims use on non-muslims is to point to non-violent quotes from the Meccan Koran, but fail to point out that these verses have been abrogated (see below**) by later violent ones from the Medina Koran.

**Abrogation: The Koran is not anything like the Bible. Firstly, it is not written in chronological order. Instead, its chapters are arranged by length, with the longest first and the shortest last in order to make it easier to memorize. On its own, this would probably be confusing enough. To make things even more confusing however, earlier verses are cancelled out, or “abrogated” by later ones.

The Koran was claimed by Mohammed, to be the verbatim Word of God. However, it became clear to Muhammed’s followers, that different parts of the Koran contradicted each other. When questioned about this, Mohammed brought forth a new verse:

Quran 2:106 Whatever of Our revelations we repeal or cause to be forgotten, we will replace with something superior or comparable. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

Consequently, Since the Koran is not written in chronological order, and since later verses cancel earlier ones, it is impossible to understand its meaning without knowing the order in which it was written and which verses have been abrogated. To do this you have to read it in conjunction with the other Islamic sacred texts, The Sira and the hadith. This is a secret that is guarded by Islamic scholars very closely as if it were a holy grail.

So now for an example, let’s refer back to Iuutzu’s post which claims that there is “no compulsion in religion” according to verse Quran 2:256. This was an early Mecca verse which was abrogated (cancelled) by a later Medina verse known as the “Verse of the Sword”, i.e.

Quran 9:5 “Kill the infidels wherever you find them.”

And also

Quran 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger [Muhammad] have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth [Islam], out of those who have been given the Book [Christian and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [this subjection is a source of Islamic law's institution of dhimmitude, i.e., third-class legal status for non-Muslims].
 
luutzu said:
Leave the kids out of your craziness.

Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.
Click to expand...




Sexually enslaving kids: A Muslim-world problem
If you thought the terrible sex-slave scandal in the English city of Rotherham was an exception you'd be sadly wrong. Muslim groups all over the world have been committing similar atrocities, ignored by mainstream media
Muslim_sex_slavery
She's not alone
Raymond_ibrahim_latest
Raymond Ibrahim
On 13 September 2014 08:26


As shocking as the Muslim-run sex ring in Rotherham, England, may seem to some””1,400 British children as young as 11 plied with drugs before being passed around and sexually abused in cabs and kabob shops””the fact is that this phenomenon is immensely widespread. In the United Kingdom alone, it’s the fifth sex abuse ring led by Muslim gangs to be uncovered.

Some years back in Australia, a group of “Lebanese Muslim youths” were responsible for a “series of brutal gang rapes” of “Anglo-Celtic teenage girls.” A few years later in the same country, four Muslim Pakistani brothers raped at least 18 Australian women, some as young as 13.

Even in the United States, a gang of Somalis””Somalia being a Muslim nation where non-Muslims, primarily Christians, are ruthlessly persecuted””was responsible for abducting, buying, selling, raping and torturing young American girls as young as 12.

The question begs itself: If Muslim minorities have no fear of exploiting “infidel” women and children in non-Muslim countries””that is, where Muslims themselves are potentially vulnerable minorities””how are Muslims throughout the Islamic world, where they are dominant, treating their vulnerable, non-Muslim minorities?

The answer is a centuries-long, continents-wide account of nonstop sexual predation. Boko Haram’s recent abduction and enslavement of nearly 300, mostly Christian, schoolgirls last April in Nigeria is but the tip of the iceberg.

The difference between what happens in Nigeria and what happens in Western nations is based on what I call “Islam’s Rule of Numbers.” Wherever Muslims grow in numbers, Islamic phenomena intrinsic to the Muslim world””in this case, the sexual abuse of “infidel” children and teenagers””comes along with them.

Thus in the United Kingdom, where Muslims make for a sizeable””and notable””minority, the systematic rape of “subhuman infidels” naturally takes place. But when caught, Muslim minorities, being under “infidel” authority, cry “Islamophobia” and feign innocence.

In Nigeria, however, which is roughly 50 percent Islamic, such “apologetics” are unnecessary. After seizing the nearly 300 schoolgirls, the leader of Boko Haram appeared on videotape boasting that “I abducted your girls. I will sell them on the market, by Allah…. There is a market for selling humans. Allah says I should sell.”

It’s the same in Pakistan””the nation where many of the United Kingdom’s Muslims, including the majority involved in the Rotherham sex ring, come from. See this article for a long list of Christian children””as young as 2-years-old””who were targeted by Muslim men for abduction, enslavement, and rape. In every single case, police do nothing except sometimes side with the rapists against their “infidel” victims.

For example, last Easter Sunday, four Muslim men gang-raped a 7-year-old Christian girl named Sara, leaving her in “critical condition.” According to Asia News, “the police, instead of arresting the culprits, helped the local clan to kidnap the girl’s father… to ‘force the family not to report the story, to reach an agreement with the criminals and to avoid a dispute of a religious background.’”

As for systematic child grooming, in 2010, Kiran George, a Christian girl who was “enslaved by a woman, Sama, a dealer of youth to be sold as prostitutes or slaves to wealthy Muslim families,” was doused with gasoline by a police officer involved in the sex ring, set on fire, and burned to death.

And a recent report confirms that “an estimated 700 cases [of abduction, enslavement, and/or rape in Pakistan] per year involve Christian women, 300 Hindu girls”””very large numbers when one considers that Christians and Hindus each make for one percent of the population of Pakistan, which is about 97 percent Muslim.

One can go on and on. In 2011 a Christian group in Muslim-majority Egypt,

"exposed a highly organized Muslim ring centered in the Fatah Mosque in Alexandria. The investigation also uncovered a systematic “religious call” plan, where young Muslim males in high school and university are urged to approach Coptic girls in the 9-15 age group and manipulate them through sexual exploitation and blackmail. The plan … aims at sexually compromising Christian girls, defiling them and humiliating them in front of their parents, thereby forcing them to flee their homes, and use conversion to Islam as a “solution” for their problems."

Approximately 550 Coptic Christian girls have been abducted and sexually abused by Muslim men during the last three years””especially under the Muslim Brotherhood’s aegis, when sexual crimes were particularly widespread.

So what animates this phenomenon of Muslim on non-Muslim rape? And we must call it Muslim rape since Islam is the common denominator in all these cases from otherwise diverse nations that have little in common except for large numbers of Muslims.

As for the pedophilia aspect, Muhammad””the prophet of Islam whom the Koran exhorts Muslims to emulate in every possible way””was “betrothed” to a six-year-old girl, Aisha, “consummating” their marriage when she was nine-years-old. Accordingly, Islam’s clerics routinely defend child “marriage”””sometimes even if the girl is still in the cradle””based on the example of the prophet.

As for the subhuman treatment of “infidel” children, this is seen as a right by supremacist Muslims. Discussing the 2010 rape of a 9-year-old Christian girl, local sources in Pakistan put it well: “It is shameful. Such incidents occur frequently. Christian girls are considered goods to be damaged at leisure. Abusing them is a right. According to the [Muslim] community’s mentality it is not even a crime. Muslims regard them as spoils of war.”

“Spoils of war” is quite correct. Here is how the late Majid Khadduri, “internationally recognized as one of the world’s leading authorities on Islamic law and jurisprudence,” explained the idea of “spoils” in his War and Peace in the Law of Islam:

"The term spoil (ghanima) is applied specifically to property acquired by force from non-Muslims. It includes, however, not only property (movable and immovable) but also persons, whether in the capacity of asra (prisoners of war) or sabi (women and children). … If the slave were a woman, the master was permitted to have sexual connection with her as a concubine."

Nor is this limited to academic talk. Last year, Jordanian Sheikh Yasir al-‘Ajlawni said Muslims fighting to topple “infidel” president Bashar Assad in Syria are permitted to “capture and have sex with” all non-Sunni women, including Shia Muslims, Alawites, Christians, Druze, and Yazidis.

Before him, Egyptian Sheikh Ishaq Huwaini lamented how during the heydays of Islam, “You [could] go to the market and buy her [enslaved, infidel concubines for sale]…. In other words, when I want a sex-slave, I go to the market and pick whichever female I desire and buy her.”

In order to eliminate sexual immorality from among male Muslim youth, Kuwaiti political activist Salwa al-Mutairi suggested the formal reinstitution of sex-slavery””not unlike what was recently exposed in Rotherham. She said on video that Islam’s greatest authorities from Mecca, the city of Islam, all confirmed the legality of sex-slavery to her. According to the Kuwaiti woman:

"A Muslim state must [first] attack a Christian state””sorry, I mean any non-Muslim state””and they [the women, the future sex-slaves] must be captives of the raid. Is this forbidden? Not at all; according to Islam, sex slaves are not at all forbidden. Quite the contrary, the rules regulating sex-slaves differ from those for free women [i.e., Muslim women]: the latter’s body must be covered entirely, except for her face and hands, whereas the sex-slave is kept naked from the bellybutton on up””she is different from the free woman; the free woman has to be married properly to her husband, but the sex-slave””he just buys her and that’s that…. For example, in the Chechnya war, surely there are female Russian captives. So go and buy those and sell them here in Kuwait; better that than have our men engage in forbidden sexual relations. I don’t see any problem in this, no problem at all."

What happened in Rotherham is hardly an aberration.

Rather, it is Islam coming to town, Muslims growing in numbers. Even Dr. Taj Hargey, a British imam, just confirmed that the majority of the UK’s “imams promote grooming rings.” He said Muslim men are taught that women are “second-class citizens, little more than chattels or possessions over whom they have absolute authority” and that the imams preach a doctrine “that denigrates all women, but treats whites with particular contempt.”

Change “whites” to “non-Muslims”””this is not about race but religion””and the experiences of those 1,400 children in Rotherham is one with the experiences of countless non-Muslim minorities throughout the Islamic world.

This article was also submitted to Front Page Magazine. Raymond Ibrahim is author of Crucified Again: Exposing Islam’s New War on Christians. He is a media fellow of the Hoover Institution


Your right luutzu, those women and children don't need my help - they can take care of themselves!




I oppose the exploitation and abuse of children by any religious group and any individual/instituition.
 

Do I need to say that i find that wrong and disgusting?
Of course it is.


I've recently heard that the UK police is looking into allegations of sex slave/under-age sex ring some of the elite English Lords and politicians set up in England - dating back to the 70s or something.

If that were to be true, do we blame English blood? Or Christianity? Or Politicians? What group do we blame for that? How about just call them sick, morally bankrupt criminals and hope the law will deal with them and not blame an entire group for the crimes of others?

-----------

It's quite amazing the lessons western war planners learn from Vietnam.

Lesson one:
No drafts; completely volunteered army. So if you are too poor and too young to know better and go fight for freedom and democracy but see things differently.. .and then get injured or killed... Well you volunteered. And how many rich kids volunteered? Not enough that their parents would exert influence money can buy to change policy.

Lesson Two:
Show respect for the dead.
Don't show the blood or the killing - unless it's done by the enemy.
So all we see, unless we go on some illegal website and look for them, are evil terrorists doing barbaric acts while our drones just blow grainy flash of lights and smoke - all in black and white like it was during the heroic war against tyranny.

Lesson Three:
Control the media.
If crimes are committed by an Arab, it's act of terrorism;
If they do it, it's terrorism; if we do it it's counter-terrorism.


Results?

Some 2.5 to 3.5 million, that's million, Iraqis died since our failed search for WMD in 2003.
No WMD but millions Iraqis dead... and we all know it's probably is for oil/booty... and we as a people seems OK with that.

We in fact group all Iraqis as either terrorists or brothers of terrorists, so it's OK to kill.
We then see Islam as the problem, as evil.
And any heinous crimes committed by any Muslim around the world... that just proves Islam being evil; any act we commit, even not as a respond to those crimes, are perfectly justifiable... because they are all the same so what difference is it to kill them in Iraq or anywhere else, right?

------------

So if you really care for your children's future, care for our citizen's well being... look closely at our govt's policies and its consequences. These domestic and foreign policies have very little to do with Islam or Muslims or migrants or refugees.

Are we safer since 911? Keep doing the same thing, but in different countries, would that make us safer?

I've heard that Julia Bishop have gone to Washington and agree that terrorism is really really bad and much worst now, and that Australia is looking to expand its contribution to bringing peace to mankind.

The $500 million set aside last september is going to need a fresh injection soon... this time it might be much more than that estimate. And we as a people will be OK with that, because with a couple of billions over the next couple of years on foreign adventures, and another couple of billions for the AFP and ASIO, we'll be safer and protected...

What is healthcare or education for our elderly and our young when security is at risk.
 

OK, you got me... Islam, unlike other good religion, is nasty.

So what's your solution? Get rid of Muslims and breed out Islam?


Ey, there's a country that's doing something like that. Look to Israel. Those guys know how to deal with Muslims, Islam and all thing terrorists. They even made a religion a state thing too.

I guess you probably can't live there because your blood is not J+ as Blumenthal said... but if we re-enact that in Australia, you will definitely be welcomed and what's more our country will be as peaceful and our domestic lives will be as blissful as it is in Israel.
 
luutzu said:
OK, you got me... Islam, unlike other good religion, is nasty.
So what's your solution? Get rid of Muslims and breed out Islam?
Click to expand...

There are three ways, one is good, one is bad and the other is ugly:

The good way to stop Islam is to spread the truth about it. Islam is a giant edifice erected on lies and it cannot withstand the truth. If the truth is spread about Muhammad’s life of crime and violence Islam will start to crumble. (Remember the duty of all muslims is to emulate the life of Muhammad)

The second option is bad. It is to deport all Muslims back to their country of origin. It does not matter if they are the second or third generation immigrants. Muslims do not see themselves as citizens of any non-Muslim country and their allegiance is not and cannot be to a country that is not controlled by them. If they tell you otherwise they are lying. They would be going against the Quran 9:23 that says Muslims should not accept the guardianship, i.e. the rule of the unbelievers. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God and the Quran says, “We made you an exalted nation, that you may be guardians over the people.” (2:143) The only status that is acceptable to Muslims is that they should rule over others while others are reduced into dhimmis, second class citizens who would work and support their Muslim masters.

The third option is ugly but it consists in doing what Muslims do to others, and giving them a taste from their own holy book, i.e., “to cast terror in their hearts.” (Q. 8:12; 3:151). Treat Muslims the way they treat non-Muslims wherever they are the majority. Since they ban the practice and preaching of other religions in Islamic countries, ban the practice and preaching of Islam in non-Muslim countries. Make life unbearable for them, just as they make it unbearable for non-Muslims wherever they are in power. Muslims are still a minority in the west. Once they perceive that their lives are in danger, they will leave on their own accord, just as millions of Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Bahais and Hindus have left their ancestral homelands because Muslims made life unbearable for them.
 

Brilliant and extremely brave.
Some will very definitely take notice. They are the ones who will now try to kill this guy.
 
luutzu said:
So what's your solution? Get rid of Muslims and breed out Islam?
Click to expand...

Bintang said:
There are three ways, one is good, one is bad and the other is ugly.
Click to expand...

In April last year the Central African Republic did it in the bad and ugly way.

From the Wall Street Journal: Muslims Flee Central African Republic Capital

"For decades, this former French colony appeared to be a model of religious tolerance in Africa, a continent home to roughly 400 million Muslims and 500 million Christians. Central African Republic sits along the line where the two groups meet and, in more peaceful times, trade with and marry one another.

That harmony has been shattered here. Muslim rebels seized the capital last year, followed by waves of rape and murder. French peacekeepers arrived in December, emboldening local Christians, who took justice into their own hands.

Now this nation is the scene of violence against Muslims. Some 2,000 Muslims in January fled to the last settlement on the road leaving the capital. Most said they have lost loved ones or saw the villages they left behind burned."
 

1. As I've said, Muslims, like all other people of all other races and religion, does not look upon the murder and annexation of other people's land as a crime. Just like the celebration of Columbus Day in the USA, Australia Day tomorrow. Just like Julius Caesar was celebrated for putting 1/3 of the Gauls to death... Napoleon, Genghis Khan etc. etc.

That is not to say that we, or them Muslims, are proud of the murder or genocide... just we explain it away. Terra Nullius, doing God's work and civilise savages, they kill because they have to etc. etc.

Just like your third solution - we ought to do ugly things because they deserve it, because they have done it to others and to us and so we have to do what must be done.

So if taking on 1.4 to 1.6 billion people is your answer to peace... that's quite some peace.



2. What?

You reckon Muslims are all one entity, all united and all brothers or something?

You know how many Americans were willing to join WW2 to help Britain? Not many.
Congress and their politicians and most of the people... they all say leave Europe alone, it's their war, we don't want to send our children or spend our resources fighting their wars.

The only reason FDR managed to convince Congress/Senate to lend Britain weapons and food and supplies was he told them doing so will keep Hitler busy, will mean the US won't have to go to war.

Most Americans were from England right? Their ancestors were European? English, French... And was blood and religion thicker than life and money?

And the only reason the US joined in was Pearl Harbor.

People are not as united as you'd like to think; and they are at the same time more united than you give them credit for.


But then yea, if we ever go to war with Ireland, or with Japan again, or with China or India... or with Britain... Are we going to start sending those Australians whose ancestors came from those countries packing too?



3. Mate, I haven't heard of any Jewish Holocaust committed by Arabs against Jews. Have you?


Let's not bring peace and stand for justice by waging war and first committing violence against those we think would commit senseless violence on us.
 
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