Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

dutchie said:

My bolds.


Now that's a common sense solution. But we know politicians don't have any common sense.

For the sake of our future children we need to stop this cancer of Islam from within. Australia is not too bad at the moment compared to other countries (especially Europe) but we cannot be complacent and take the risk.

There is just no upside for Australia of importing more Muslims, only future pain.

Islamophobia I have but I am thinking about the future of Australia.

Anyone who thinks this will all go away over time is mistaken.

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Leave the kids out of your craziness.

Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.

luutzu said:

Leave the kids out of your craziness.

Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.

Click to expand...

Welcome back to the thread Iuutzu.
Boxing is not much fun when there is only one contestant in the ring.
Perhaps we should declare this to be the start of ‘Round 2’ and ask pixel to ring the bell.
I wonder where basilio is. Still in the change room perhaps.

luutzu said:

Leave the kids out of your craziness.
Trust me, they don't need your help if it's in this way.

Click to expand...

Non-muslim kids in Pakistan could sure do with some help:

Sanao Menghwar and his wife, a Hindu couple residing in Karachi, Pakistan, were traumatized one November evening in 2005, when upon returning from work they discovered that all their three daughters were missing. After two days of futile searching, they found out that their daughters had been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam. The police arrested three Muslim youths in connection with the crime, who were later granted bail by a court because they were minors. The girls remain missing.
“Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamped papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,” says Laljee, a Hindu resident of Karachi. “Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger — they fear victimization,” he added.
Many Hindu girls meet similar fates in Pakistan. They are abducted, forced to convert to Islam and forced to marry a Muslim man while their parents are denied the right to see or talk to them. “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs (infidels)?” remarked Maulvi Aziz, the cleric representing a Muslim kidnapper in another case that was taken to the court.

Bintang said:

Welcome back to the thread Iuutzu.
Boxing is not much fun when there is only one contestant in the ring.
Perhaps we should declare this to be the start of ‘Round 2’ and ask pixel to ring the bell.
I wonder where basilio is. Still in the change room perhaps.

Click to expand...

Pixel is right though, this is going to keep going and going and there's nothing new to add.

But I'll try to take you guys seriously... I'm somewhat of an idiot that way - never a lost cause.


What you and co. have been saying regarding Muslims, Muslim refugees and anything Islamic for that matter... Let's take you at your word that you do it because you think it's right for the nation, right for Australia and Australian values... that you love your country, love your people, love your children... and because of that abundant of love, you must hate Muslims and Islam for they are either terrorists or welfare cheats or something bad.

If you look at the causes of the Great Depression, look at what it does to millions of Americans and their children; then look at the policies and solutions that save it and rescue western democracies from extinction... it had nothing to do with immigrants or Muslims. It hasn't then, it will not now.

The major causes of the Great Depression were rampant financial speculation, unregulated financial and banking systems; no social security safety net for the poor.

So when the market collapses and the banks were closed, some 20 million Americans were out of a job, the economy then collapses... leading to Hooverville shanty towns all over the country, soup kitchens, riots and the near death of American democracy and capitalism.

When Franklin D Roosevelt came into the presidency, he was told that he will be seen as either be its greatest president or its worst... to which he replied: "If I fail, I'll be its last president".

And he wasn't kidding.

In Europe, fascism and communism was the new norm. So democracy and capitalism was either gone or on its way out.

What saved the US were the "socialist" New Deal policies of the Roosevelt administration. Policies like a minimum wage, regulation of banks and financial systems, medicare, the building of roads and infrastructure, the gov't guarantee on mortgages so most Americans could keep their home... All things that richest american industrialists, the master of the universe like JP Morgan... all hated it and all against it.

Then when Pearl Harbor happen and Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan declare war on the US... the mass industrialisation to build the "arsenal of democracy"... all funded by the gov't, with public money, not private kindness or industrialists' compassion and love for fellow countryman and democracy.

After WW2, the GI Bill allow some 5 million GIs free higher education... the building of schools, the funding of public education, the easy access for millions of Americans to learn... leading to higher pay, better productivity and innovation... expanding the middle class and enrich the nation and its industrialists.

These policies were adopted by other Western democracies, like Australia, with equal success.


So if you think Muslims or migrants are bad, look at history as well as current facts. You won't find them as the cause.

And if you look at what had been happening in the US and here in Australia... you will see that just about all the main building blocks that enable our prosperity are slowly being taken away - not by Muslims or migrants or refugees, but by politicians and their real masters.

Healthcare is on the block; higher education is going to be "deregulated" and will be out of reach to most Australians; the middle class... well I guess we prefer the "Aussie battler"... will keep on battling because to do otherwise would be unAustralian.


Why are the top 1% owning half the world? Why does 95% of gains in income since the GFC gains by the top 1%? Why is a first home out of reach of most working young Australians?

Welfare is being cut and made more difficult; pensions... public servants are being fired by the thousands each year... Every gov't expenditure is now a cost, not an investment; every asset that serves the community well is sold to pay for higher costs for services from those firms we've sold recently.

So we privatise our national assets, selling it to the rich so they could make it more efficient and not dream of charging us any higher; we dare not tax mining giants... then for grand strategy and trade reasons, go on foreign adventures.

----

The situation in the ME is going to get worst. Those evil terrorists are not so dumb. They know that oil is a finite resource, they know that once the wells run dry, there will be nothing left for them and their children... and back to diving for pearl or fishing or selling dates and nuts might pay for imported water to drink and maybe a blanket or two but not much else.

So they will fight and we will call them evil and savages more often and so could morally justified in flattening buildings and anyone at will... but now and then, they will be able to recruit from among us here at home...

Doesn't take a math genius to see that if they recruit two guys and give them a couple of rifles, we send in thousands of troops, stop a city, then after the clean up spend hundreds more millions to increase security... doesn't take much maths to know who have more to lose.

How many more buildings and towns can be bomb until we run out of targets?


So much for Muslims and refugees causing us our pain.

Bintang said:

Non-muslim kids in Pakistan could sure do with some help:

Sanao Menghwar and his wife, a Hindu couple residing in Karachi, Pakistan, were traumatized one November evening in 2005, when upon returning from work they discovered that all their three daughters were missing. After two days of futile searching, they found out that their daughters had been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam. The police arrested three Muslim youths in connection with the crime, who were later granted bail by a court because they were minors. The girls remain missing.
“Kidnapping Hindu girls like this has become a normal practice. The girls are then forced to sign stamped papers stating that they’ve become Muslims,” says Laljee, a Hindu resident of Karachi. “Hindus here are too frightened to vent their anger ”” they fear victimization,” he added.
Many Hindu girls meet similar fates in Pakistan. They are abducted, forced to convert to Islam and forced to marry a Muslim man while their parents are denied the right to see or talk to them. “How can a Muslim girl live and maintain contact with kafirs (infidels)?” remarked Maulvi Aziz, the cleric representing a Muslim kidnapper in another case that was taken to the court.

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I guess if those Muslims call those girls terrorists the world will be OK with it.

luutzu said:

What you and co. have been saying regarding Muslims, Muslim refugees and anything Islamic for that matter... Let's take you at your word that you do it because you think it's right for the nation, right for Australia and Australian values... that you love your country, love your people, love your children... and because of that abundant of love, you must hate Muslims and Islam for they are either terrorists or welfare cheats or something bad.

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Iuutzu, I have never said, ‘anyone must hate muslims’ or that ‘I hate muslims’. I tried to correct you on this previously. Perhaps I will get lucky a third time.
I sincerely believe that muslims themselves are victims of Islam and need to be helped if we are to help ourselves. Ali Sina also has this to say:
Muslims are the primary victims of Islam. “My objective is not just to expose the dangers of Islam, but also to rescue Muslims from this web of lies. I want to save them from blowing up themselves and the world, to realize that mankind is one family, and help them come to their senses and to the human race, to prosper and live in peace. I want to help establish the unity of Mankind, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind further, but by exposing and removing the chief doctrine of hate in the world.”

But by all means hate Islam. You will if you take the trouble to find out what really lies underneath its veil.

luutzu said:

I guess if those Muslims call those girls terrorists the world will be OK with it.

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And how about you. Would you be ok with it?

Bintang said:

Iuutzu, I have never said, ‘anyone must hate muslims’ or that ‘I hate muslims’. I tried to correct you on this previously. Perhaps I will get lucky a third time.
I sincerely believe that muslims themselves are victims of Islam and need to be helped if we are to help ourselves. Ali Sina also has this to say:
Muslims are the primary victims of Islam. “My objective is not just to expose the dangers of Islam, but also to rescue Muslims from this web of lies. I want to save them from blowing up themselves and the world, to realize that mankind is one family, and help them come to their senses and to the human race, to prosper and live in peace. I want to help establish the unity of Mankind, not by introducing yet another doctrine, which always ends up dividing mankind further, but by exposing and removing the chief doctrine of hate in the world.”

But by all means hate Islam. You will if you take the trouble to find out what really lies underneath its veil.

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The non-Islamic world have done a pretty good job at blowing itself and almost the entire world apart a couple of times, all without Islam's help too.

You do realise that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all worship and believe in the same God right? That Jesus and Moses are considered a prophet in Islam too right? Just like Muhammad is also God's prophet.

All three came from the same region, follow the same god... yet one is more evil than the other two... and it just happen that the evil one is the one we're fighting against.

Bintang said:

And how about you. Would you be ok with it?

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Why would I be OK? You seriously think I would ignore crimes by Muslims or apologise for Islam?

luutzu said:

You do realise that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all worship and believe in the same God right? That Jesus and Moses are considered a prophet in Islam too right? Just like Muhammad is also God's prophet.
All three came from the same region, follow the same god... yet one is more evil than the other two ... and it just happen that the evil one is the one we're fighting against.

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Wow, Iuutzu. you are seriously misguided on this:
The God of Christianity and Judaism is not the same as Allah of Islam.
Muhammad was Allah's messenger and Allah was just something invented by Muhammad to be his alter-ego.

The evilness of Muhammad is well documented. Just read Ali Sina’s book “Understanding Muhammad”, for starters
Would you care to explain why you think Moses and Jesus were also evil?

It is a mistake to think of Islam as a religion. If Islam is a religion, then so were Nazism, communism, Satanism, Heaven’s Gate, People’s Temple, Branch Davidian, etc. If we think of religion as a philosophy of life to educate, to bring forth human potential, to elevate the soul, to stimulate spirituality, to unite hearts and to enlighten mankind, then Islam surely fails that litmus test completely. Therefore, by this measure, Islam should not and cannot be regarded as a religion.

Islam was not created to teach humans spirituality, nor make them enlightened. The spiritual message in Islam is secondary or virtually nonexistent. Piety in Islam means emulating Muhammad, a man who was far from pious. Rituals like prayers and fasting are mere window dressing to lure unbelievers inside, to give Islam the appearance of sacredness and spirituality.

There is not a single day that someone is not killed by the hands of Muslim terrorists somewhere in the world. What will it take for the world to wake up and realize that Islam is not a religion but a dangerous cult? When are we going to pay attention to the Qur’an and the history of Islam to understand that terrorists are not “extremists” but practicing Muslims following the real, original teachings of their “holy” book and the examples set by their beloved prophet?

Bintang said:

Wow, Iuutzu. you are seriously misguided on this:
The God of Christianity and Judaism is not the same as Allah of Islam.
Muhammad was Allah's messenger and Allah was just something invented by Muhammad to be his alter-ego.

The evilness of Muhammad is well documented. Just read Ali Sina’s book “Understanding Muhammad”, for starters
Would you care to explain why you think Moses and Jesus were also evil?

Click to expand...

First, I didn't say Jesus or Moses were evil. As far as I am concerned, Moses and Muhammad were armed prophets, hence they didn't get crucified while Jesus only teach and have no army behind him.

Second, why am I not surprised you didn't know much about Islam.


From jewishvirtuallibrary.com:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Quran.html

The Koran (Qur'an)

"The Qur'an (in Anglicized form: Koran ) is certainly the greatest literary work in classical Arabic and for all Muslims stands as the definitive word of God (in Arabic: Allah ) spoken to the prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. When reading the Qur'an , you should realize that, for all Muslims, the text you are reading is quite literally the voice of God;

"The recitation began one night in the year 610 A.D. Muhammad was sitting alone in the wilderness near Mecca when the Angel Gabriel appeared to him. The Angel called out to him with the command, "Recite! Recite! Recite!" Muhammad responded "I am not a reader." The angel recited three verses to him and when he awoke he had these verses, as he said, inscribed in his heart. These revelations continued for 10 days. Islamic scholars believe that the first revelation occurred on the night of the 27th day of Ramadan. This night is called the Laylat-al-Qadr (Night of Power). And according to the Quran, this is when God determines the course of the world for the following year...

"From that point on, Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet and messenger of God, the last in a line of seven prophets (beginning with Abraham and ending with Jesus Christ, who was prophet number six) and responsible for inscribing the last and most important of God's direct messages to the world, the Arabic Recitation, which is the full name of the work. The people of God, that is, the Jews and the Christians, were going astray; the purpose of the Arabic Recitation was to restore God's faithful to the proper path. ...

luutzu said:

First, I didn't say Jesus or Moses were evil.

Click to expand...

You wrote this:

luutzu said:

... yet one is more evil than the other two...

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So if one of them is more evil they must all be evil to some degree. Perhaps you meant to write, one was evil but the other two were not.

luutzu said:

Second, why am I not surprised you didn't know much about Islam.

The Koran (Qur'an)

"The Qur'an (in Anglicized form: Koran ) is certainly the greatest literary work in classical Arabic and for all Muslims stands as the definitive word of God (in Arabic: Allah ) spoken to the prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. When reading the Qur'an , you should realize that, for all Muslims, the text you are reading is quite literally the voice of God;

"The recitation began one night in the year 610 A.D. Muhammad was sitting alone in the wilderness near Mecca when the Angel Gabriel appeared to him. The Angel called out to him with the command, "Recite! Recite! Recite!" Muhammad responded "I am not a reader." The angel recited three verses to him and when he awoke he had these verses, as he said, inscribed in his heart. These revelations continued for 10 days. Islamic scholars believe that the first revelation occurred on the night of the 27th day of Ramadan. This night is called the Laylat-al-Qadr (Night of Power). And according to the Quran, this is when God determines the course of the world for the following year...

"From that point on, Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet and messenger of God, the last in a line of seven prophets (beginning with Abraham and ending with Jesus Christ, who was prophet number six) and responsible for inscribing the last and most important of God's direct messages to the world, the Arabic Recitation, which is the full name of the work. The people of God, that is, the Jews and the Christians, were going astray; the purpose of the Arabic Recitation was to restore God's faithful to the proper path. ...

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Iuutzu, it is you who knows nothing about Islam.
Note the emphases I have added to your quotation.
And please tell us what the proper path is that the followers of Islam were following?

luutzu said:

If you look at the causes of the Great Depression, look at what it does to millions of Americans and their children; then look at the policies and solutions that save it and rescue western democracies from extinction... it had nothing to do with immigrants or Muslims. It hasn't then, it will not now.

The major causes of the Great Depression were rampant financial speculation, unregulated financial and banking systems; no social security safety net for the poor.

[... etc]

Click to expand...

Again, you're right about the facts, luutzu;

You don't even have to stop at the Great Depression in America. What caused the rise of the Nazi movement? Greed of the victors and their insatiable hatred and desire for revenge led to the insanity of Versailles, which attempted to impoverish an entire Nation. If you're made the scapegoat for all the world's woes, ordered to work for free and pay the entire bill - what do you do? Do you turn the other cheek and love those that hate you?
By the time Chamberlain realised that hatred begets hatred, it was far too late. Germany's early version of "Quantitative Easing" - pay your workers with IOUs in a share of assets they created - had created new assets much more powerful than the Allieds had expected.

However ... I fail to see the relevance for the evils of Islam. One evil, the evil of greed, unfettered capitalism, bombing and nuking cities, ... doesn't diminish the other evils, the lust for heheading, murder, mayhem, and general aggression against everybody that doesn't agree with hardline Islamists.

While a class battle between Rich and Poor is still rife in Western nations, I see a subtle difference in the Islamic world, where most of the atrocities are perpetrated against their fellow Muslims. If the kidnapping of school girls, mass murder of kids and teachers, ... isn't deserving of the attribute "EVIL", I don't know what is.

luutzu said:

"From that point on, Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet and messenger of God, the last in a line of seven prophets (beginning with Abraham and ending with Jesus Christ, who was prophet number six) and responsible for inscribing the last and most important of God's direct messages to the world, the Arabic Recitation, which is the full name of the work.

Click to expand...

The above omits a great deal of important detail:

Historians tell us Muhammad used to withdraw to a cave, spending days wrapped in his thoughts. He heard bells ringing and had ghostly visions. He thought he was demon possessed, until his wife reassured him he had become a prophet.
Convinced of his status, he was intolerant of those who rejected him, assassinated those who criticized him, raided, looted, and massacred entire populations. He reduced thousands to slavery, raped, and allowed his men to rape female captives. All of this, he did with a clear conscience and a sense of entitlement.
He was magnanimous toward those who admired him, but vengeful toward those who did not. He believed he was the most perfect human creation and the universe's raison d'être. Muhammad was no ordinary man. He was a narcissist.

PS: Piety in Islam means emulating Muhammad, a man who was far from pious. ISIS is doing great job of emulating Muhammad.

Bintang said:

You wrote this:

So if one of them is more evil they must all be evil to some degree. Perhaps you meant to write, one was evil but the other two were not.

Iuutzu, it is you who knows nothing about Islam.
Note the emphases I have added to your quotation.
And please tell us what the proper path is that the followers of Islam were following?

Click to expand...

No, meant to say that all religion are evil. That from any religion, you could take out words and deeds as well as interpret literally or take some creative license... and all are equally evil.

Do not even need to use religion... take any nation's national "value" or virtues... the ones that does the most killing tend to become national heroes.


If you're going to start a religion, are you going to say that the other prophet, the other gods are OK, are good and great... but let's join you for a change?

IF Islam is so nasty and vile, so backward and barbaric and the world is better without it... take a look at contributions by Muslims after Muhammad. See their contribution to science, to education, to the arts, to philosophy etc. etc.

Heck, the Muslims were debating Plato and Aristotle, were measuring the sun and mapping the stars, creating algebra and chemistry.... all that while Europe were in the dark ages busy burning witches and staying alive.

Won't surprise me if they eventually fell and their children be thought of as savages because they deem everyone else as barbarians.

luutzu said:

No, meant to say that all religion are evil. That from any religion, you could take out words and deeds as well as interpret literally or take some creative license... and all are equally evil.

Click to expand...

I'll try again:
Please tell us what the proper path is that the followers of Islam were following?

Luutzu and Bintang:
Can I ask both of you to refrain from personal accusations. Let's play the ball, not the man.

The "ball" in this thread is evilness of Islam. Some hold the view that all three religions of the book are evil, or at least based on prehistoric superstitions, still adhering to which in this day and age must be considered "crazy". Stating that opinion doesn't make a person more or less intelligent or informed.

I believe we have long reached agreement that all religions have different flavours, and between black and white we could probably find different shades of grey.

wrt Islam, I'm afraid, Bintang, you may be right when it comes to a deep-set feeling in just about every Muslim, that they are Muslim first, human beings second. But I hope to Reason (can't say "to God") that you're wrong and Islam will undergo its own Reformation from within.

pixel said:

Luutzu and Bintang:
Can I ask both of you to refrain from personal accusations. Let's play the ball, not the man.

The "ball" in this thread is evilness of Islam.

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I am trying very hard pixel. What exactly was my accusation?

pixel said:

Again, you're right about the facts, luutzu;

You don't even have to stop at the Great Depression in America. What caused the rise of the Nazi movement? Greed of the victors and their insatiable hatred and desire for revenge led to the insanity of Versailles, which attempted to impoverish an entire Nation. If you're made the scapegoat for all the world's woes, ordered to work for free and pay the entire bill - what do you do? Do you turn the other cheek and love those that hate you?
By the time Chamberlain realised that hatred begets hatred, it was far too late. Germany's early version of "Quantitative Easing" - pay your workers with IOUs in a share of assets they created - had created new assets much more powerful than the Allieds had expected.

However ... I fail to see the relevance for the evils of Islam. One evil, the evil of greed, unfettered capitalism, bombing and nuking cities, ... doesn't diminish the other evils, the lust for heheading, murder, mayhem, and general aggression against everybody that doesn't agree with hardline Islamists.

While a class battle between Rich and Poor is still rife in Western nations, I see a subtle difference in the Islamic world, where most of the atrocities are perpetrated against their fellow Muslims. If the kidnapping of school girls, mass murder of kids and teachers, ... isn't deserving of the attribute "EVIL", I don't know what is.

Click to expand...

I agree.

I wouldn't try to excuse an evil act by pointing to another evil act by the other side.

No killing or brutality, by anyone, is ever justifiable. But to blame a religion or a race for the deeds of some who worship the same God or have the same skin colour... that's also wrong.

Just look at any civil war throughout history - brothers against brothers... whose god is kinder, whose race or whose religion is better? It's war, and in war, even good people do nasty things. That's not to excuse it, hopefully to say that we shouldn't go to war to begin with... maybe all wars should be avoided, and maybe all wars are avoidable.

I mean, ISIS is nasty... killing a lot of innocent people, most of whom were Arabs and Muslims. A few well publicised ones were our citizens... So we have reportedly killed 6,000 of them so far. Are we really better and more noble? Did they kill any Australians before we join the alliance and send the jets over?

So OK they're bad and the things they believe and do are repugnant to our values and morality... but we didn't intervene because of those do we?

If we can justify our killings, why can't they justify theirs? Not saying they have to same claims, but killing is killing right?


It's very dangerous to group any religion or any people as evil... once we're OK with that classification, it's open season for whatever wrath we can bring upon them and those like them.

One can argue ends and means... I don't think that end is what we would want either.

Bintang said:

I'll try again:
Please tell us what the proper path is that the followers of Islam were following?

Click to expand...

The will of God, as recited through the angel Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad.

Same as all religion aims to do - convert lost sheeps or bring people to the Tao (the Way). Same with our democracy under Bush Jr. - spreading democracy and nation building. Nasty business.