Is there a GOD?

[wayneL]

This is semi-related to this thread, there are a few threads around this topic but this seems to be a current one. Anyhow there are some interesting recorded debates around at the moment, that are worth watching for anyone that is following this. What ever opinion you have, I think it is important to respect each others point of view, and have an open mind.

http://www.dawkinslennoxdebate.com/

http://media.smh.com.au/?rid=40913&sy=smh&source=undefined

Great watch weird, thanks.

IMO the pro God debaters always kick an own goal and hand victory to Dawkins on a silver platter by arguing for their own "religion" and therefore the biblical model of God.

Easy pickings for someone as intelligent as Dawkins. The "Christian/Jewish/Islamic God is in trouble from the get-go on pure logic grounds, was created my man in his own image, as others have pointed out. Trying to represent the Bible as an accurate historical record is.... well,

!

I've heard some other cool scientists who could have a worthwhile generic and scientific debate with Dawkins, without quoting Luke whatever:whatever.

It's kind of annoying for someone like me who rejects the man made God of the bible and wants to be free to consider a host of possibilities.

 

[Greg71]

If reincarnation were true, wouldn't you remember your past lives? $20 invested in the year 1600 would now be worth a bit compounded.

 

[wayneL]

Can we prove we aren't reincarnated - no
Can we prove we are - no
equal probability ?

Probability cannot be determined in such a question.

 

[Pat]

Can the believers out there please give me an idea of what their heaven would be like for me.
Here is my profile-
Born at 8.00am died few minutes after delivery.
not christend. Only child, parents went to hell.
How will I spend eternity

Heaven and Hell... religous BS to me.

Even if there is nothing after death (or before birth) there can still be a god... a creator!



I posted this in another thread... (Big Bang theory and matters astronomical) perhaps science/math will explain all one day

Regardless, I worship mother nature

 

[Ilori]

Just as valid to ask is there an Easter Bunny or a Tooth Fairy

How come god never turns up when needed? Because he doesn't exist.

How come god never demonstrates a simple miracle to prove he's there? Because he doesn't exist.

How come we need to have "faith" that he exists? Because he doesn't exist - faith (ie. irrational believe) is all they have.

How come "god works in mysterious ways"? Because he doesn't exist - have to find a way to explain unanswered prayers - so they say he's mysterious Yeah, right - how about "no-one home"?

Why do little children die in unfair ways? Because there is not god! If the believers still claim he exists - then he's a monster. Allowing little children to die is absolutely inconsistent with anything good - two ways to go - god either does not exist OR is a cruel ruthless monster - take your pick.

Certainly we can all be "god fearing" eventhough he doesn't exist - fear because he has caused countless wars and death and destruction over centuries.

 

[2020hindsight]

Probability cannot be determined in such a question.

ok in the qualitative sense - equal chance ? maybe.
Imo, the (scientific) case against is stronger than the case for.

 

[wayneL]

ok in the qualitative sense - equal chance ? maybe.
Imo, the (scientific) case against is stronger than the case for.

There is no scientific case as god/whatever is specifically excluded from "science", hence there is no methodology devised to test reincarnation.

Ergo, probability of reincarnation is not determinable.

Your opinion is far away from scientific process and far away from open minded inquiry.

 

[noirua]

Just as valid to ask is there an Easter Bunny or a Tooth Fairy
How come god never turns up when needed? Because he doesn't exist.
How come god never demonstrates a simple miracle to prove he's there? Because he doesn't exist.
How come we need to have "faith" that he exists? Because he doesn't exist - faith (ie. irrational believe) is all they have.
How come "god works in mysterious ways"? Because he doesn't exist - have to find a way to explain unanswered prayers - so they say he's mysterious Yeah, right - how about "no-one home"?
Why do little children die in unfair ways? Because there is not god! If the believers still claim he exists - then he's a monster. Allowing little children to die is absolutely inconsistent with anything good - two ways to go - god either does not exist OR is a cruel ruthless monster - take your pick.
Certainly we can all be "god fearing" eventhough he doesn't exist - fear because he has caused countless wars and death and destruction over centuries.

I suppose, if the existance of God was an absolute certainty everyone would be praying away and doing good deeds, all the time. What a nonsense that would be?

 

[Sean K]

Just as valid to ask is there an Easter Bunny or a Tooth Fairy

How come god never turns up when needed? Because he doesn't exist.

How come god never demonstrates a simple miracle to prove he's there? Because he doesn't exist.

How come we need to have "faith" that he exists? Because he doesn't exist - faith (ie. irrational believe) is all they have.

How come "god works in mysterious ways"? Because he doesn't exist - have to find a way to explain unanswered prayers - so they say he's mysterious Yeah, right - how about "no-one home"?

Why do little children die in unfair ways? Because there is not god! If the believers still claim he exists - then he's a monster. Allowing little children to die is absolutely inconsistent with anything good - two ways to go - god either does not exist OR is a cruel ruthless monster - take your pick.

Certainly we can all be "god fearing" eventhough he doesn't exist - fear because he has caused countless wars and death and destruction over centuries.

All nice thoughts, but unfortunately God believers have devised cunning and ingenious answers to all of them, mostly surrounding the concepts of 'free will' and 'faith'.

An absolute classic believer theory is that the stronger the faith you have the better believer you are. Ergo, if you believe in even the most incredible stories the myth books throw at you (eg, the Earth was made in 6 days, Eve was made from a rib, or there are 200 virgins waiting for you in heaven if you blow yourself, along with a few other random humans, to smitherines) thau shalt definately go to heaven! And, you'll probably even be able to do over a few alter boys before the big man smacks you on the wrist. That's just free will...

 

[wayneL]

...or there are 200 virgins waiting for you in heaven if you blow yourself, along with a few other random humans, to smitherines) thau shalt definately go to heaven!

I wonder what happens when you've shagged them all? Do you get to keep them, or are they no good now that they're not virgins?

What does a woman get if she blows herself up? 200 virgin guys?

 

[2020hindsight]

There is no scientific case as god/whatever is specifically excluded from "science", hence there is no methodology devised to test reincarnation.

Ergo, probability of reincarnation is not determinable.

Your opinion is far away from scientific process and far away from open minded inquiry.

Perhaps you should be directing your concerns to tech/a
He after all chose the terminology above

"God's existance is equally probable and improbable"

Whilst it is closer to the mark that knowing for certain that he/she/it does or doesn't exist, I still think the very fact that the "dimensions" of this "God-to-explain-all-the-unknown-things"

has been steadily decreasing as science expained more and more.

Heck you can go back to Galileo , but even today, science continues to take back the unknown from religion. (surely).

Hence I believe the trend is that God is less probable than he used to be in the time of Galileo - and if he was 50-50 then, she is probably 99 - 01 now (imo)

 

[wayneL]

Perhaps you should be directing your concerns to tech/a
He after all chose the terminology above

Whilst it is closer to the mark that knowing for certain that he/she/it does or doesn't exist, I still think the very fact that the "dimensions" of this "God-to-explain-all-the-unknown-things"

has been steadily decreasing as science expained more and more.

Heck you can go back to Galileo , but even today, science continues to take back the unknown from religion. (surely).

Hence I believe the trend is that God is less probable than he used to be in the time of Galileo - and if he was 50-50 then, she is probably 99 - 01 now (imo)

The Biblical God is less probable... probably not probable at all in all probability.

But that says nothing about god. Perhaps science is discovering god and helping to discard the one created in man's image.

Just a non-scientific speculation.

 

[refined silver]

Just as valid to ask is there an Easter Bunny or a Tooth Fairy .

How come god never turns up when needed? Because he doesn't exist.
He does. Always.

How come god never demonstrates a simple miracle to prove he's there? Because he doesn't exist.

1. Miracles will never prove to those don't want to believe or follow. Jesus did many miracles yet some towns refused to believe or follow.
2. When telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus, when the rich man was in hell and wanted to go back and warn his relatives, Abraham told him "they have Moses and the prophets" the rich man persisted "No father Abraham; but if someone goes back from the dead, they will repent." But Abraham said "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded even if one rises from the dead.
3. How many countless prayers to God have been prayed from hospital beds that if God heals them they will follow him. Yet even after healing these prayers are totally forgotten?

How come we need to have "faith" that he exists? Because he doesn't exist - faith (ie. irrational believe) is all they have.
1. It is just as much a faith position that God does not exist (and more irrational).

How come "god works in mysterious ways"? Because he doesn't exist - have to find a way to explain unanswered prayers - so they say he's mysterious Yeah, right - how about "no-one home"?

1. Because with a brain the size of an asparin, compared to an Infinite God you are not going to understand why He does everything.

Why do little children die in unfair ways? Because there is not god! If the believers still claim he exists - then he's a monster. Allowing little children to die is absolutely inconsistent with anything good - two ways to go - god either does not exist OR is a cruel ruthless monster - take your pick.
1. Is it your little child or you just throwing stones?
2. Your logic relies on the assumption that a child that dies is in a worse place. The Bible contradicts this.
3. There is a Day coming when all wrongs will be put right and all evil righted, God has promised. That Day is Judgement Day.

Certainly we can all be "god fearing" eventhough he doesn't exist - fear because he has caused countless wars and death and destruction over centuries
1. In the 20th Century, atheism and secular humanism were the philosophies underlying more death and destruction than any religious philosophies.
2. Hence the ultimate cause of wars is human selfishness, greed, envy, anger and so on. Religion can be a cover for this.

 

[Sean K]

How come god never turns up when needed? Because he doesn't exist.
He does. Always.

How come god never demonstrates a simple miracle to prove he's there? Because he doesn't exist.

1. Miracles will never prove to those don't want to believe or follow. Jesus did many miracles yet some towns refused to believe or follow.
2. When telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus, when the rich man was in hell and wanted to go back and warn his relatives, Abraham told him "they have Moses and the prophets" the rich man persisted "No father Abraham; but if someone goes back from the dead, they will repent." But Abraham said "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded even if one rises from the dead.
3. How many countless prayers to God have been prayed from hospital beds that if God heals them they will follow him. Yet even after healing these prayers are totally forgotten?

How come we need to have "faith" that he exists? Because he doesn't exist - faith (ie. irrational believe) is all they have.
1. It is just as much a faith position that God does not exist (and more irrational).

How come "god works in mysterious ways"? Because he doesn't exist - have to find a way to explain unanswered prayers - so they say he's mysterious Yeah, right - how about "no-one home"?

1. Because with a brain the size of an asparin, compared to an Infinite God you are not going to understand why He does everything.

Why do little children die in unfair ways? Because there is not god! If the believers still claim he exists - then he's a monster. Allowing little children to die is absolutely inconsistent with anything good - two ways to go - god either does not exist OR is a cruel ruthless monster - take your pick.
1. Is it your little child or you just throwing stones?
2. Your logic relies on the assumption that a child that dies is in a worse place. The Bible contradicts this.
3. There is a Day coming when all wrongs will be put right and all evil righted, God has promised. That Day is Judgement Day.

Certainly we can all be "god fearing" eventhough he doesn't exist - fear because he has caused countless wars and death and destruction over centuries
1. In the 20th Century, atheism and secular humanism were the philosophies underlying more death and destruction than any religious philosophies.
2. Hence the ultimate cause of wars is human selfishness, greed, envy, anger and so on. Religion can be a cover for this.

SR, Did you really write this?

The books of the cults of Abraham were written years, nay, centuries after the fact. One was written on the account of an Angel talking to Muhammad in his dreams while delerious hiding in a cave in the desert over years. It was then translated orally to his uncle who put his spin on it. The New Testament, well, I was actually reading it tonight and what a load of bollocks.

Your entire justification for refuting the post are fairytales.

Just your first point:

How come god never turns up when needed? Because he doesn't exist.
He does. Always.

How, where, when, in what form, what did he say, what did he do, how did he get here? if he was, how was he looking after that child in the Sudan at the same time, my friends dying of cancer didn't meet him after his prays. Why did he save some of the miners trapped in the cave and disregard the others? Divine intervention of course. The ones that died must have been bad Christians, or 'God works in mysterious ways'....righto. Could go until the cows come home....but it's late.

Your response will be, 'it's Gods will', or 'he works in mystereous ways', or 'they forgot to turn up for their cracker every Sunday morning'. etc etc.

 

[refined silver]

SR, Did you really write this?

Hi Kennas, yep, I wrote it.

The books of the cults of Abraham were written years, nay, centuries after the fact. One was written on the account of an Angel talking to Muhammad in his dreams while delerious hiding in a cave in the desert over years. It was then translated orally to his uncle who put his spin on it.

True, Moses wrote the first five books of Bible, another 39 authors over 1500 years wrote the rest, from shepherds, to kings, across centuries, cultures, and countries. They wrote on history, God, the meaning of life, philosophy, ethics etc. Yet there is One author over the individuals.

The Koran is a very different book, received in very circumstances as you note.

The New Testament, well, I was actually reading it tonight and what a load of bollocks.

Your call.

How, where, when, in what form, what did he say, what did he do, how did he get here? if he was, how was he looking after that child in the Sudan at the same time, my friends dying of cancer didn't meet him after his prays. Why did he save some of the miners trapped in the cave and disregard the others? Divine intervention of course. The ones that died must have been bad Christians, or 'God works in mysterious ways'....righto. Could go until the cows come home....but it's late.

Your response will be, 'it's Gods will', or 'he works in mystereous ways', or 'they forgot to turn up for their cracker every Sunday morning'. etc etc.

Re-read my point about tiny, finite, mortal man trying to argue with or question the Creator who is Infinite in knowledge and wisdom. And also about Judgement Day.

As to the character of this God, can He be trusted, he revealed this most fully in the person of Jesus Christ. Eg. "He who has seen me has seen the Father". (Jesus speaking). Again its your call whether to trust or not.

 

[Pat]

Does the existence, or the nonexistence of god change anything? (presuming we are not aware regardless (this is our present situation)).

There is an episode of Futurama called "Godfellas". By far the best explanation of god's "plan" I have seen. Brilliant IMO.

I urge anyone with a sense or humour to watch it...
http://www.tv.com/futurama/godfellas/episode/125571/summary.html
(can't find the episode )

 

[Sean K]

True, Moses wrote the first five books of Bible,

Not sure about that one.

Some scholars believe the Old Testament was written over about 10 centuries, between the 12th and 2nd c BC (by memory), and further revised until a final copy hit the printing presses around 4-500AD.

So, there were probably various writers of all of the books of the Old Testament. The final five books decided to be included as the Pentateuch or Torah, are attributed to four sources, nd the authors labelled; Yahwist (J), the Elohist (E), the Deuteronomist (D) and the Priestly (P) source. The J and E are labelled as such for the way they refer to God, as either Yahweh, or Elohim. I find this interesting because the Elohim around this time are actually a pantheon of gods residing in a town called Ugrit on the coast of modern day Syria, but that's another story.

So, it might have been the story of Moses, but his story was converyed by a number of scribes over a number of years. I daresay some poetic lisence went into it and I damn well hope so.

 

[Sean K]

Does the existence, or the nonexistence of god change anything? (presuming we are not aware regardless (this is our present situation)).

Walk around the Middle East today, or 16th century Spain, with a sign strapped to you saying 'God/Allah does not exist'.

Good luck...

 

[Kauri]

I just had a quck chat wit him... and thank G.. it was on Skype... and he showed me what he tought of our ... uummm.. opinions??

Cheers
...........Kauri

 

[weird]

Just some random thoughts, let's compare this argument to "Is there a GOD?", to another question, "is the stock market random ?"

Let's say a "Professor" produces this fantastic paper, with supported statistical analysis, or even 'evidence', that supports yes, the market is indeed random.

Now considering this is a stock market forum, most punters here 'believe' there is possibly an edge that could be obtained, by following FA or TA, or trade management that could beat random.

Okay, lets further add to this, a mate of a mate, has been written up in the "intergalactic trader's advantage", which reports regularly of traders that have beaten the market consistently, millenium after millenium. The funny thing is that regardless of who the trader being written up is, there are soon books or naysayers which bluntly state these results were fabricated, or that there was a particular state in the market at the time, which prospered these results ... heck everyone was rolling in palaces when these guys raked it in.

So, based on this, the market completely random theory ... lets make up our mind - well there is some pretty impressive evidence in that Professor's paper (however I believe another Professor just brought out a paper, with a completely opposite view ... check out Intergalactic Space-craft terminal top bookseller list - everyone is reading it while traveling to the moon, she is also a prestigious uni professor!), but also we have conflicting 'evidence' or stories about some reported individual successful traders (although there are contrary books or reports from others that say these results were completely fabricated or just luck ... heck statistics will support that too).

Heck, I forgot to mention forums ... anyhow make up your mind ... whether because we now live in an "information age", it makes it any easy to have, support, and keep a particular view - I don't know - it certainly makes it easier to rip into everyone else's.