Is there a GOD?

[Pat]

God is the logic to describe the illogical.

Hmmmmm... I bet there's a word for that. I really should read that dictionary.

 

[Sean K]

Just to step back a little.

As to the character of this God, can He be trusted, he revealed this most fully in the person of Jesus Christ. Eg. "He who has seen me has seen the Father". (Jesus speaking). Again its your call whether to trust or not.

Can God be trusted?

Here are a few contradictions that raise some questions:

1. God encouraged reproduction. Gen.1:28.
1a. He said it was an unclean process. Lev.12:1-8 (Note that bearing a daughter is more unclean than bearing a son)
2. God preferred Abel's offering to Cain's. Gen.4:4, 5.
2a. God shows no partiality. 2 Chr.19:7; 2 Sam.14:14.
3. God asks Cain the whereabouts of his brother. Gen.4:9.
3a. God is everywhere and sees everything. Prov.15:3; Jer.16:17; Jer.23:24.
4. God renamed Jacob and called him Israel. Gen.35:10.
4a. God forgot the new name. Gen.46:2
5. God instructs the Israelites to spoil the Egyptians and plunder their enemies. Ex.3:22; Deut.20:13-17.
5a. God prohibits stealing or defrauding a neighbor. Lev.19:11,13.
6. God details sacrificial offerings. Ex.20:24; Ex.29:10-42; Lev.1:1-17; Num.28:1-31.
6a. God says he did not order sacrifices. Jer.7:22
7. God was with the people. Ex.3:12.
7a. God was not with the people. Ex.33:3.
8 God chose Saul. 1 Sam.9:16.
8a. God repents for choosing Saul. 1 Sam.15:35.
8b. God doesn't need to repent. Num. 23:19.
9. God prohibits the making of idols. Ex.20:4; Deut.5:8, 9.
9a. God commands idols to be made. Ex.25:18; Num.21:8, 9.
10. God prohibits the killing of the innocent. Ex.23:7.
10a. God approves the killing of the innocent. Num.31:17; Josh.6:21; 10b. Josh.7:24-26; Josh.8:22-25; Josh.10:20, 40; Josh.11:15; 1 Sam.15:3.

I've taken these few examples from 101 Contradictions in the Old Testament.

Haven't checked them all, but am starting to...

In God we Trust?

The US really should take that off their currency..

(And, if Moses wrote The Old Testament, how did he make so many errors? The Skeptics Annotated Bible goes into more detail on a plethora of contradictions in the Books of the Cult of Abraham)

 

[James Austin]

The issue I have with the god debate, “does/ does not exist?”, is that mind is just not qualified to answer the question.

Mind’s nature is linear, dualistic, conceptual, and therefore by nature, limited.

Consequently, if you argue, “yes God does exist”, you are either:

A] guessing (believing!),
B] hoping, or
C] have had a mystical experience;
(** it is only via the mystical experience that the limited mind is transcended and the question “does God exist?” can be answered unequivocally.)

If, conversely, you argue, “no, God does not exist”, you are responding completely rationally, because you are using the mind, which by its nature, is limited in a linear, dualistic, conceptual fashion, and therefore cannot have direct experience of what is conceived of as non-linear, non-dualistic, non-conceptual.

So,
it is only by stepping out of the mind/ beyond the mind, that the question, “does God exist?”, can be answered honestly. This is the mystical experience; where mind temporarily disintegrates or is transcended.

But who has the time to cultivate such an experience. Just a select few, throughout history, have either had a spontaneous mystical experience or spend a life time cultivating one via, meditation, contemplation, prayer etc.

The rest of us, if we claim God to exist, are usually just guessing or hoping.

The others, who argue “no”, are being completely rational; given the tool they are using, the mind, is not qualified to answer the question.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[LittleMak]

Would this boy believe in Jesus Christ or God? Would he know about Jesus or allah, buddah etc?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bites--run-police-escaping-Moscow-clinic.html


IMO Gods and religions are just human made conclusions trying to give some explanation to the unexplainable.

The more we observe nature and the universe either through science or experience we start to see that there is sooo much more unexplainable occurences happening beyond human consciousness and life that its not all just a big stage for us insignificant beings to be judged for a invitation to Heaven or hell.

 

[refined silver]

Here are a few contradictions that raise some questions:
.....
I've taken these few examples from 101 Contradictions in the Old Testament.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but if you read only one side you can be comfortably reinforced in your own views, without ever having to consider the alternatives. If you are truly seeking truth you will read both sides of an argument just as carefully.

If you want to find answers, google something like: "supposed Bible contradictions answered" or a similar search.

Do you have the foggiest clue how to interpret the Bible? Do you have the foggiest clue as to basic hermeneutics for interpreting any literature? Or are just you a kid making fun of that which you are totally ignorant of and have no desire to investigate?

Even our own culture has proverbs and advice which may appear contradictory,

- "Look before leap" vs "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" or "he who hesitates is lost"
- "You're never too old to learn" vs "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."
It's better to be safe than sorry.
- "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" vs "Its better to be safe than sorry"
- "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" vs "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"

and so on.

Does that mean all this advice is rubbish or idiotic, or just that you have no idea on basic principles of hermeneutics, and have no desire to find out either?

(And, if Moses wrote The Old Testament, how did he make so many errors? The Skeptics Annotated Bible goes into more detail on a plethora of contradictions in the Books of the Cult of Abraham)

See the advice above if you have any interest in listening to both sides.

 

[Sean K]

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but if you read only one side you can be comfortably reinforced in your own views, without ever having to consider the alternatives. .

I wouldn't dare to presume that this would apply to you.

 

[roland]

seems like the poll here is around 50/50 - certainly not what one would consider a great investment - more of a hit or miss gamble

better set tight stops on this one, or maybe pick a more prospective long shot

 

[Greg71]

Those contradictions are entertaining, I must admit. However, they must be taken in context.

God's instruction to not steal from a neighbor was after they left Egypt. The ruling was for the way Israelites were to treat each other, not other nations.

Anyway, on a positive note, the bible also contains hundreds of prophecies, written hundreds of years before Christ (the last book of the old testament was written 400 years B.C.), all of which were fulfilled in his lifetime, including the place of his birth.

How can that be argued?

 

[Greg71]

seems like the poll here is around 50/50 - certainly not what one would consider a great investment - more of a hit or miss gamble

better set tight stops on this one, or maybe pick a more prospective long shot

I'd recommend a straddle for this trade.

 

[refined silver]

As for contradictions, its not just general sayings and accepted bits of wisdom, I also bet it wouldn't take more than 5 minutes to come up with contradictory bits of supposed trading wisdom.

I'm not trying to create fights, but I get tired of seeing thread after thread where people seem to continually slag off God, the Bible, and Christians as backward, moronic, evil, etc. I ignore it most of the time, but sometimes it deserves answering.

Although Christians are often accused of trying to ram things down people's throats, the survey at the top of this thread is illuminating in that people on the forum seem fairly split down the middle in belief in God, and yet generally the posts by mockers far outweigh those from believers. This would tend to suggest that its the non-believers who are far vocal and outspoken in their religious beliefs.

 

[Sean K]

God's instruction to not steal from a neighbor was after they left Egypt. The ruling was for the way Israelites were to treat each other, not other nations.

Just from other Israelites? Sure?

If so, pretty immoral isn't it? Or racist?

If not stealing applied to anyone, after the Israelites left Egypt and the Sinai and back into Canaan, they went on a path of destruction killing thousands of innocent people and pillaging everything they could.

Deuteronomy Ch 3:

3. So the LORD our God delivered into our hand Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people; and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.

4. And we took all his cities at that time; there was not a city which we took not from them; threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.

5. All these were fortified cities, with high walls, gates, and bars; beside the unwalled towns a great many.

6. And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying every city, the men, and the women, and the little ones.

7. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey unto ourselves.


Not just stealing, but genocide.

Nice God that one.

 

[Greg71]

You've got to look at the big picture, like looking at the XAO then
working your way down to the actual stock.

The old testament is a history of God's people under the old covenant, the Israelites.

The reason God seperated a nation was:

1. To demonstrate his existence to mankind (i.e. other nations feared the Israelites because they knew that the living God was with them), and

2. It was necessary for God's ultimate plan of bringing Jesus into the world to die on the cross, thus providing all of mankind a way back to God. We were seperated from him by sin when Adam and Eve ate from the tree, thus man's continual fall to what we have today.

All the prophecies through the old testament about the coming Messiah (God's people, the Israelites, expected a king to rule over them and crush everyone else, like a Roman Ceasar type of king), told how he would come through the lineage of a certain tribe within the nation, plus all these other things. It provided a way for the people to know the real Messiah when he arrived. He would fulfill all the prophecies and it would more or less be impossible for an imposter to fool everyone.

So, it is through Jesus that we all (all nations) are now able to become one of God's new covenant people (where the Israelites were exclusively his people under the old covenant, the Mosaic law). This is done by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the final, perfect sacrifice for sin (the old covenant required animal's blood to be shed on an altar by a priest etc.).

As far as genocide goes, these people occupied the land God promised to the Israelites. They wouldn't have given it up without a fight. Again, part of God's ultimate plan for mankind. The Israelites just followed instructions, destroying nations that for the most part worshipped false gods (idolatry), which is something that angers God.

Israel weren't stealing when they conquered cities in the promised land. The land had to be purged of heathen nations, as the land was holy unto the Lord. Keeping the spoils of war was common practise back then. It's just another way God demonstrated to us (and surrounding nations) that the living God is the one to be worshipped, not some statue. You want to worship a statue? Your choice. But God's people had the instructions on how to please God, which is why he was with them when they obeyed.

The 10 commandments contained some general guidelines like don't steal, don't murder etc, which if disobeyed, result in crime, killing etc. They are like moral guidelines we as humans on this planet, can use as a basic guide for living. If we didn't have them, we wouldn't know that God doesn't like stealing, killing, etc. Another way the Israelites were used by God to perform his will on Earth.

You'll also notice that in times when Israel strayed from the covenant (the Mosaic law), that God punished them severely, like when a king would build altars to other gods or the people disobeyed or whatever. Even in the wilderness God was teaching them obedience, like when they whinged because they were sick of eating manna. God gave them quail, then struck thousands of them down as punishment.

God punished the Israelites many times throughout their history, as a father punishes his children for doing things wrong, to teach them to do right. When they obeyed, God gave them victory in battle etc., when they disobeyed, they would lose.

It would have been impossible for Israel to do what they did without some supernatural assistance. As we can look back at it today by simply reading our bible, we are able to work out that the God of the bible (i.e. not Isis of Egypt, Krishna, Buddha or Allah etc.) is the only real, living God. How can we know? By all the signs and wonders demonstrated to us in the bible, through the Israelites.

If we are able to arrive at this fairly straight forward conclusion that the old testament God is the only actual God, then it stands to reason that we can work out that Jesus is the Son of God, as he fulfilled all the prophecies given to God's old covenant people, the Israelites.

By reading the old testament, we can work out that God was with the Israelites, not the Egyptians etc. We can then work out, using our God-given brains, that Jesus came from God.

If we read the new testament (written after Jesus), we can receive further insight into man's current standing with God.

When Jesus died on the cross, the old covenant ended. The bible records the temple veil tearing from top to bottom (i.e. no more temple system), kind of like God reaching in and ripping it in half, like when we tear a piece of paper in half and throw it in the bin. "Attention planet - temple system of worship finished".

And as Jesus, after he rose from the dead, instructed his disciples to "teach all nations, baptizing them...".

Greg.

 

[Pat]

You've got to look at the big picture, like looking at the XAO then
working your way down to the actual stock.

The old testament is a history of God's people under the old covenant, the Israelites.

The reason God separated a nation was:

1. To demonstrate his existence to mankind (i.e. other nations feared the Israelites because they knew that the living God was with them), and

2. It was necessary for God's ultimate plan of bringing Jesus into the world to die on the cross, thus providing all of mankind a way back to God. We were separated from him by sin when Adam and Eve ate from the tree, thus man's continual fall to what we have today.

All the prophecies through the old testament about the coming Messiah (God's people, the Israelites, expected a king to rule over them and crush everyone else, like a Roman Ceasar type of king), told how he would come through the lineage of a certain tribe within the nation, plus all these other things. It provided a way for the people to know the real Messiah when he arrived. He would fulfill all the prophecies and it would more or less be impossible for an imposter to fool everyone.

So, it is through Jesus that we all (all nations) are now able to become one of God's new covenant people (where the Israelites were exclusively his people under the old covenant, the Mosaic law). This is done by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the final, perfect sacrifice for sin (the old covenant required animal's blood to be shed on an altar by a priest etc.).

As far as genocide goes, these people occupied the land God promised to the Israelites. They wouldn't have given it up without a fight. Again, part of God's ultimate plan for mankind. The Israelites just followed instructions, destroying nations that for the most part worshipped false gods (idolatry), which is something that angers God.

Israel weren't stealing when they conquered cities in the promised land. The land had to be purged of heathen nations, as the land was holy unto the Lord. Keeping the spoils of war was common practice back then. It's just another way God demonstrated to us (and surrounding nations) that the living God is the one to be worshipped, not some statue. You want to worship a statue? Your choice. But God's people had the instructions on how to please God, which is why he was with them when they obeyed.

The 10 commandments contained some general guidelines like don't steal, don't murder etc, which if disobeyed, result in crime, killing etc. They are like moral guidelines we as humans on this planet, can use as a basic guide for living. If we didn't have them, we wouldn't know that God doesn't like stealing, killing, etc. Another way the Israelites were used by God to perform his will on Earth.

You'll also notice that in times when Israel strayed from the covenant (the Mosaic law), that God punished them severely, like when a king would build altars to other gods or the people disobeyed or whatever. Even in the wilderness God was teaching them obedience, like when they whinged because they were sick of eating manna. God gave them quail, then struck thousands of them down as punishment.

God punished the Israelites many times throughout their history, as a father punishes his children for doing things wrong, to teach them to do right. When they obeyed, God gave them victory in battle etc., when they disobeyed, they would lose.

It would have been impossible for Israel to do what they did without some supernatural assistance. As we can look back at it today by simply reading our bible, we are able to work out that the God of the bible (i.e. not Isis of Egypt, Krishna, Buddha or Allah etc.) is the only real, living God. How can we know? By all the signs and wonders demonstrated to us in the bible, through the Israelites.

If we are able to arrive at this fairly straight forward conclusion that the old testament God is the only actual God, then it stands to reason that we can work out that Jesus is the Son of God, as he fulfilled all the prophecies given to God's old covenant people, the Israelites.

By reading the old testament, we can work out that God was with the Israelites, not the Egyptians etc. We can then work out, using our God-given brains, that Jesus came from God.

If we read the new testament (written after Jesus), we can receive further insight into man's current standing with God.

When Jesus died on the cross, the old covenant ended. The bible records the temple veil tearing from top to bottom (i.e. no more temple system), kind of like God reaching in and ripping it in half, like when we tear a piece of paper in half and throw it in the bin. "Attention planet - temple system of worship finished".

And as Jesus, after he rose from the dead, instructed his disciples to "teach all nations, baptizing them...".

Greg.

You seriously don't believe this?
He/she/it could of done things a hell of a lot more efficiently eh?
So much of this religious jargon doesn't make sense (logically), especially this Christian stuff.

By reading the old testament, we can work out that God was with the Israelites, not the Egyptians etc. We can then work out, using our God-given brains, that Jesus came from God.

This part here... Come on!




I love the pagan, or if you will, heathen stuff.

Can't remember what Native American Indian 'tribe' this is from, they have an analogy for life and the earth...
A drum with four legs, each leg represents life on earth, the drum beating represents natures heart beat. If one leg goes, so do the other legs, and the drum itself.
This is something we can actually learn from.

 

[Out Too Soon]

seems like the poll here is around 50/50 - certainly not what one would consider a great investment - more of a hit or miss gamble

better set tight stops on this one, or maybe pick a more prospective long shot

The markets been doing so well lately this thread is getting more populated!:sheep:

Logically the poll indicates that there must be something approaching a GOD/GODS somewhere, somehow but us puny 3 dimensional apes- we haven't got a clue.

So I say "May The Force Be With You"

Disclosure- I'm a Jedi Buddhist.:horse:

 

[Out Too Soon]

Just to step back a little.

Can God be trusted?

101 Contradictions in the Old Testament.

Just repeated this link - thanks Kennas there's a lot of good reading at that website although I cant see "beleivers " being swayed by the obvious.

 

[white_crane]

Disclosure- I'm a Jedi Buddhist

Liar! Everyone knows that Jedi spiritual awareness comes from The Force.:

 

[Pat]

Has anyone read the Gospels Of Peace?

Apparently the Vatican has held this knowledge for sometime (so I'm told) ... a 'Da Vinci Code' type conspiracy?

The writings make more sense to me than most of the bible.

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/

The below is from book 1.

And then many sick and maimed came to Jesus, asking him. "if you know all things, tell us, why do we suffer with these grievous plagues? Why are we not whole like other men? Master, heal us, that we too may be made strong, and need abide no longer in our misery. We know that you have it in your power to heal all manner of disease. Free us from Satan and from all his great afflictions. Master, have compassion on us."

And Jesus answered- "Happy are you that you hunger for the truth, for I will satisfy you with the bread of wisdom. Happy are you, that you knock, for I will open to you the door of life. Happy are you, that you would cast off the power of Satan, for I will lead you into the kincdom of our Mother's angels, where the power of Satan cannot enter."

And they asked him in amazement: "Who is our Mother and which her angels? And where is her kingdom?"

"Your Mother is in you, and you in her. She bore you she gives you life. it was she who gave to you your body, and to her shall you one day give it back again. Happy are you when you come to know her and her kingdom; if you receive your Mother's angels and if you do her laws. I tell you truly, he who does these things shall never see disease. For the power of our Mother is above all. And it destroys Satan and his kingdom, and has rule over all your bodies and all living things.

"The blood which runs in us is born of the blood of our Earthly Mother. Her blood falls from the clouds; leaps from the womb of the earth; babbles in the brooks of the mountains; flows wide in the rivers of the plains; sleeps in the lakes; rages mightily in tempestuous seas.

"The air which we breathe is born of the breath of our Earthly Mother. Her breath is azure in the heights of t heavens; soughs in the tops of the mountains; whispers the leaves of the forest; billows over the cornfields; slumbers in the deep valleys, burns hot in the desert.

"The hardness of our bones is born of the bones of our Earthly Mother, of the rocks and of the stones. They stand naked to the heavens on the tops of mountains; are as giants that lie sleeping on the sides of the mountains, as idols set in the desert, and are hidden in the deepness of the earth.

"The tenderness of our flesh is born of the flesh of our Earthly Mother; whose flesh waxes yellow and red in the fruits of the trees, and nurtures us in the furrows of the fields.

"Our bowels are born of the bowels of our Earthly Mother, and are hid from our eyes, like the invisible depths of the earth.

"The light of our eyes, the hearing of our ears, both are born of the colors and the sounds of our Earthly Mother; which enclose us about, as the waves of the sea a fish, as the eddying air a bird.

"I tell you in very truth, Man is the Son of the Earthly Mother, and from her did the Son of Man receive his whole body, even as the body of the newborn babe is born of the womb of his mother. I tell you truly, you are one with the Earthly Mother; she is in you, and you in her. Of her were you born, in her do you live, and to her shall you return again. Keep, therefore, her laws, for none can live long, neither be happy, but he who honors his Earthly Mother and does her laws. For your breath is her breath; your blood her blood; your bone her bone; your flesh her flesh; your bowels her bowels; your eyes and your ears are her eyes and her ears.

"I tell you truly, should you fail to keep but one only of all these laws, should you harm but one only of all your body's members, you shall be utterly lost in your grievous sickness, and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I tell you, unless you follow the laws of your Mother, you can in no wise escape death. And he who clings to the laws of his Mother, to him shall his Mother cling also. She shall heal all his plagues, and he shall never become sick. She gives him long life, and protects him from all afflictions; from fire, from water, from the bite of venomous serpents. For your Mother bore you, keeps life within you. She has given you her body, and none but she heals you. Happy is he who loves his Mother and lies quietly in her bosom. For your Mother loves you, even when you turn away from her. And how much more shall she love you, if you turn to her again? I tell you truly, very great is her love, greater than the greatest of mountains, deeper than the deepest seas. And those who love their Mother, she never deserts them. As the hen protects her chickens, as the lioness her cubs, as the mother her newborn babe, so does the Earthly Mother protect the Son of Man from all danger and from all evils.

"For I tell you truly, evils and dangers innumerable lie in wait for the Sons of Men. Beelzebub, the prince of all devils, the source of every evil, lies in wait in the body of all the Sons of Men. He is death, the lord of every plague, and taking upon him a pleasing raiment, he tempts and entices the Sons of Men. Riches does he promise, and power, and splendid palaces, and garments of gold and silver, and a multitude of servants, all these; he promises renown and glory, fornication and lustfulness, gluttony and wine-bibbing, riotous living, and slothfulness and idle days. And he entices every one by that to which their heart is most inclined. And in the day that the Sons of Men have already become the slaves of all these vanities and abominations, then in payment thereof he snatches from the Sons of Men all those things which the Earthly Mother gave them so abundantly. He takes from them their breath, their blood, their bone, their flesh, their bowels, their eyes and their ears. And the breath of the Son of Man becomes short and stifled, full of pain and evil-smelling, like the breath of unclean beasts. And his blood becomes thick and evil-smelling, like the water of the swamps; it clots and blackens, like the night of death. And his bone becomes hard and knotted; it melts away within and breaks asunder, as a stone falling down upon a rock. And his flesh waxes fat and watery; it rots and putrefies, with scabs and boils that are an abomination.

And his bowels become full with abominable filthiness, with oozing streams of decay; and multitudes of abominable worms have their habitation there. And his eyes grow dim, till dark night enshrouds them, and his ears become stopped, like the silence of the grave. And last of all shall the erring Son of Man lose life. For he kept not the laws of his Mother, and added sin to sin. Therefore, are taken from him all the gifts of the Earthly Mother: breath, blood, bone, flesh, bowels, eyes and ears, and after all else, life, with which the Earthly Mother crowned his body.

"But if the erring Son of Man be sorry for his sins and undo them, and return again to his Earthly Mother; and if he do his Earthly Mother's laws and free himself from Satan's clutches, resisting his temptations, then does the Earthly Mother receive again her erring Son with love and sends him her angels that they may serve him. I tell you truly, when the Son of Man resists the Satan that dwells in him and does not his will, in the same hour are found the Mother's angels there, that they may serve him with all their power and free utterly the Son of Man from the power of Satan.

"For no man can serve two masters. For either he serves Beelzebub and his devils or else he serves our Earthly Mother and her angels. Either he serves death or he serves life. I ten you truly, happy are those that do the laws of life and wander not upon the paths of death. For in them the forces of life wax strong and they escape the plagues of death."

And all those round about him listened to his words with amazement, for his word was with power, and he taught quite otherwise than the priests and scribes.

And though the sun was now set, they departed not to their homes. They sat round about Jesus and asked him: "Master, which are these laws of life? Rest with us awhile longer and teach us. We would listen to your teaching that we may be healed and become righteous."

 

[Glen48]

If we didn't have religion we would not have wars, but because we do we will have wars until the earth ends.
How many God's are there and which one is right IF you can proive it.
Religion is a form of Mental illness just like people believe poker machines will pay out.
How many people has the Pope killed?
how many more wil suffer because of his Pope?
Why let people suffer from Aids and war when he could stop it.
Greed in USA is nothing liek religion can give you.

 

[roland]

Well, I was born into a Christian family, went to Sunday school, was taught religion at public school, went to bible camps, studied the bible, became a Christian - now I am an atheist and don't believe in God - go figure....

 

[nunthewiser]

I am a real nun so therefore there must be a real god