Is there a GOD?

[2020hindsight]

I post this at the risk of boring everyone stupid.
It's an attempt to find out how a simple post about pantheism ended up a guessing game about what the question is to some minor matter in some post. If you wish just cut to the chase i.e. the last bit.

Wayne, in reply I find this a very weird argument. You seem to want to argue about minor points in an argument , trees if you like, but imo you are missing the wood.

Yet another look at Pantheism - you'd be in good company
Einstein, Hawking, Sagan
http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm...FQ2QggodbSmLeA

2020, ...Would really love to hear what's on your mind -

I really liked that website I just found for "World Pantheism". (I'm also learning all the time ok?) Followers include Sagan, Hawking , even Einstein etc - good enough for them good enough for me.

Also, attaching great names to the school of thought does nothing to add credibility. ..... All that does is engender people to follow others thought, instead of some original thinking of their own.

3. "attaching great names to the school of thought does nothing to add credibility." tough call - I think you'll find that less than 5% agree with you (who is more credible that Sagan pray tell)

I'm happy to be in a 5% minority, because 95% of people are followers. ..... Sagan, though obviously intelligent and eloquent, is still subject to emotional and cognitive biases which guides all of our decision making.

You dismiss Sagan out of hand (yet elsewhere you praise him)

This very post is faulty logic, as it is inaccurate. Also in the monumental straw man argument

well one of us is using straw man argument thas for sure

I think you are saying you dont respect Sagan yes?

Would please quote my most recent comment re Sagan, and analyze the same. In your own words, explain how you came to this conclusion

you say you are prepared to ignore him when it comes to your own "philosophy". (and that we should (DYOR). I would consider listening to him excellent research.

Don't fob the question 2020, answer it.

Not sure I know which question - unless it's a pretty trivial one of my allegedly misquoting Wayne maybe ? somewhow?

Anyway
I still think Sagan is excellent research.
If you think I misquoted you - then we can agree to disagree.
If you don't like World Pantheism - then we strongly disagree.


The good news end of this post ( as far as I'm concerned anyway).
I would happily spend the rest of my life pursueing scientific truth on this matter - and trying to avoid too many leaps of faith. This is not to say I won;t keep an open mind - but I want to try to stick with facts. And there are trillions of them I don't know and hope to one day.


Here are a few of the "members' of this "loosely defined and totally informal religion".

They meet at science symposiums etc
And based on what I've seen , David Attenborough and the late Douglas Adams. (who I still think is one funny dude).

 

[Julia]

I post this at the risk of boring everyone stupid.

Hmm, just might be a bit late for that.

 

[2020hindsight]

Hmm, just might be a bit late for that.

Guess we have the choice of your rapier wit Julia
or the beautifully expressed wisdom of Sagan

A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.
Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.

PS I seem to have screwed up the link that website (in the recent post). This is the correct one
http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm?gclid=CKblzK2J2pECFQ2QggodbSmLeA

PS And Julia , my religion
"World Pantheism, Revering the Universe, Caring for Nature, Celibrating LIfe."
- gee I like that concept.

 

[wayneL]

20

The point is, that you misrepresent what I say for your own ends (whatever that is). While you do that, it is a semantical pissing contest rather than a genuine discussion. You even hoist yourself by your own petard in the lengthy and pointless and confused post #881 , and don't even realise it.

My referring you back to a seemingly trivial point is to see whether I could drag the discussion on a relevant track. Alas, no. Instead you chose to indulge in very amateur verbal card tricks. (You know the type, so clumsily done that everyone can see how you've done it... rolled eyes all round).

Meanwhile everyone else who would like to add some very sensible points get pissed off and tunes out.

I'm going to make a very strong suggestion that you have had your say on what thinking you have chosen to follow, and to let somebody else have a go. Maybe we could get the likes of Imaginator and Wysiwyg back.

 

[wayneL]

Yes there is a God, and he is alive in you as your Higher Self. I'm not a Christian, but a Buddhist who studied Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Taoism and Buddhism.

William Blake said "God is man awake(enlightened about his true nature), Man is God asleep(the eastern concept of ignorance of one's true nature)".

The bible is an analogy. Adam the generic man fell asleep in Eden (the land of eternity) and he dreams. That is the fall of man from being Gods and turned into man (5 senses man). So man as Adam dreams the dreams of life (refer The Matrix & Truman Show).

We are all our own god in our life. Whatever we believe we can achieve, we achieve. Whatever we say we can't achieve, we can't. Also comes the power of our mind to manifest things (see "The Secret") which furthers proves that man has within him the creative spark of God, the power of his own thoughts.

God is not a person. You are part of god, and he is in you learning and experiencing your life experiences. One day you may look at your life and be aware that whatever experience you had, you attracted it with your creative power of your own thoughts, and actions. One day in our search for God we will realise that God is actually the nearer than near, He is Us. In within us. Our true nature of pure potentiality. In the scripture, God told Moses, "my name is "I AM". Who says I am? You. Me. Everyone.

Circumstances are the creatures of man. Man is not the creature of circumstances.

That was a very cool and interesting post Imaginator. I'm sure many would love to hear more of your views. I would.

 

[imaginator]

Thanks Wayne!

If you are interested, read books by Neville Goddard. You can find his book in Amazon. His writings deal with using imagination to create/attract/manifest/change circumstances and about scripture inner meanings.

Peace be with you!

 

[Julia]

Guess we have the choice of your rapier wit Julia
or the beautifully expressed wisdom of Sagan

No wit involved, 2020.
I was completely serious.

 

[2020hindsight]

No wit involved, 2020.
I was completely serious.

I could (smilingly) agree with you

 

[spooly74]

Synthetic life 'advance' reported

An important step has been taken in the quest to create a synthetic lifeform.

A US team reports in Science magazine how it built the entire DNA code of a common bacterium in the laboratory using blocks of genetic material.

The group hopes eventually to use engineered genomes to make organisms that can produce clean fuels and take carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere.

.........

We're simply re-writing the operating software for cells - we're not designing a genome from the bottom up - you can't drop a genome into a test tube and expect it to come to life," he added.

This is the stage which raises the most concern among critics, and where a new lifeform could be said to be truly created. How precisely will it behave? What will its impact be on other organisms and the environment? Some say it is a step too far, but others argue that the new field of synthetic biology is an important science.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7203186.stm

It would seem that we are not too far away from creating new life in the lab.
The argument for 'science cannot explain life' ..... therfore there must be a GOD will need some tweaking now, although this advance will lend itself nicely to the ID argument . . . . back on the merry-go-round.

 

[2020hindsight]

good one spooly
This article similar - from last October (same topic - in fact linked)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7041353.stm

The race to create life version 2.0 is under way.
And rumours abound that closest to the finish line in constructing a lifeform in the laboratory is US genome-entrepreneur Craig Venter's research team.

The J Craig Venter Institute scientists are aiming to craft a "minimal genome"- the smallest group of genes an organism needs to survive and function - and insert it into an empty cell.

This stripped-down genome has been established with the help of a simple bacterium, Mycoplasma genitalium, by knocking out its genes, one by one, until only the genetic material vital for survival was found.

They don't claim to be there just yet but ...:-

But building life from scratch, .. is a challenge that some synthetic biologists have decided to take on.

If you can build the biological parts, they argue, then creating something that meets the criteria for life - has a metabolism, replicates and evolves - is surely the next step.

PS Kirt Vonnegut quote (I think) :-
Making life in a lab is easy - Just give me an attractive lab assistant.

PS mankind has spent the great majority of his evolutionary history as bacteria.

 

[noirua]

Someone said "there is no god, but the fear of no god".

 

[spooly74]

Someone said "there is no god, but the fear of no god".

Depends on what your beliefs offer.

I grew up being told that an eternity in the kingdom of heaven awaits.
Now I don`t know if it`s an eternity with all my friends and fam, or an eternity bathing beauties in paradise, but eternity as a concept scares me.

 

[skint]

LOL
I haven't had the time to look in on the ASF religion, politics etc.. threads of late. Surprise, surprise when I do, I find 20/20 and Julia are still at it. "You two, if I have to stop the car..!"

 

[Julia]

LOL
I haven't had the time to look in on the ASF religion, politics etc.. threads of late. Surprise, surprise when I do, I find 20/20 and Julia are still at it. "You two, if I have to stop the car..!"

Hello Skint,
Actually, I think at present we are being quite restrained! Perhaps you need to read back a few pages more.

Thanks for the funny mental picture. I'm sure 2020 doesn't fancy being stuck in the back of a car on a long journey with me any more than I do with him. But, on the other hand, with you as a referee, Skint..........

 

[2020hindsight]

Thanks for the funny mental picture. I'm sure 2020 doesn't fancy being stuck in the back of a car on a long journey with me any more than I do with him. But, on the other hand, with you as a referee, Skint..........[/QUOTE]
I spy with my lill eye, something beginning with God!

Hey dad - whadda we want ICECREAM !
whendawewantit? - NOW!

 

[Wysiwyg]

Hi
Well probably you have not been paying much attention to your thoughts, or have not experiemented with creating/attracting something into your life after you start to think about it consistently and believe you are going to get it.

Yes imaginator, of course i do every day.My intention to make things happen (within my sphere of control) is not through attraction but a conscious decision to do so.My will.My need.My desire.

On a lighter side, Have you ever suddenly thought about someone and meeting them in the most unexpected place/time or get an unexpected phone call from them? Have you ever thought about something and wanting to tell it to a friend, and only have your friend suggest the same thing to you, but without you actually telling them?

Yes there has been a coincidence or two and this is another parlour trick the alternative thinking crowd have.I say this because i have been through the new age stage of seminars, courses, tapes, books and mind fuxxx and am dam sceptical of the whole scene.What they don`t tell you is you only get what you want if other people let you.

So all the nice thoughts, plans , wishes and goals mean nothing when someone, family, group or system determines the outcome.

 

[2020hindsight]

I agree wys,
someone who believes in god might say "anything we believe we can do, we CAN do, with Gods's help".

someone who believes in the power of the mind might say "anything we believe we can do, we CAN do".

(not much difference at the end of the day I guess, but was God necessary?)

Some 'religions' can teach you to meditate, sometimes with special mantra given you by some long haired bloke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharishi_Mahesh_Yogi
Harvard Uni investigated all such meditation techniques - called it "the Relaxation Response" - and the only mantra you need is some easy repetitive word like "one"

(equally christians might use "lamb of god" etc)

 

[imaginator]

Yes imaginator, of course i do every day.My intention to make things happen (within my sphere of control) is not through attraction but a conscious decision to do so.My will.My need.My desire.



Yes there has been a coincidence or two and this is another parlour trick the alternative thinking crowd have.I say this because i have been through the new age stage of seminars, courses, tapes, books and mind fuxxx and am dam sceptical of the whole scene.What they don`t tell you is you only get what you want if other people let you.

So all the nice thoughts, plans , wishes and goals mean nothing when someone, family, group or system determines the outcome.

WYSIWYG,

Hi no we cannot mentally force someone to do something. You cannot force someone to give you money, their house etc. But usually the intention is very important. Your higher self almost always disallows you to use such influence for lesser purposes. It is your inner conscience guiding you.

But if your conscience is good behind the intent, then coupled with the right method you can do some things such as making people like you, or having an outcome you desire. Eg, once I wanted to rent a room for $215 including bills to a student, when he came, he bargained to $190 and said he wants to share the bill with me. Due to time constraint, I agreed, which I later regretted. But for a few nights i stated my clear intent(to myself) that he should pay his fare share of rent. 3 days later when he came to sign the contract, he said "There is something i need to tell you. Can I pay you $215 including bills?" puzzled, i asked him why, he said his mum told him he should! So he did what I originally intended him to.

Another case many years ago when I came to Sydney to look for a job, I intended to have $55,000 salary. But at that time i was only making $35,000 in Melbourne, most of the Sydney job agents told me the highest I can get "in the market" was $40,000 - 45,000. But for many days I intended $55,000 at a minimum I would accept. One day while planting this thought and intention in my visualisation time, I felt the thought getting stronger and suddenly I felt a sense of release, and a strange knowing that "it is done". The next day I was so eager and positively waiting for phone call. At 11am the call came from a Sydney agent saying he wanted to arrange an interview. So the next week I went to Sydney for 4 days just for interviews. During the 4 days I kept visualising the agent congratulating me on the phone saying "congratulations, he would like to offer you $55,000". I never told this agent I wanted $55,000, I only told him above $50,000. At the end of the 4 days, he called me saying a company is willing to offer me, and asked me how much I wanted. I said "at least $50,000" now thinking my original $55 may be really too high. But he called back 2 minutes later saying the same words I heard in my mind "Congratulations, he would like to offer you more than $50,000. He wants to give you $55,000.Coincidence you still think for him to offer me what I originally intended and visualised everynight and think it is his own idea?

If it were coincidence, I wouldn't be able to repeat it. But I did repeat it, not once, but in fact 2 times! Last year I was only earning $60,000, and I wanted a job that pays me at least $80,000+super. I went to interviews and one of the director offered me $60,000 on the spot. I was unimpressed and said i will think about it as another company was offering me $66,000 already. He then said "Ok how about $66,000". Feeling even more unimpressed by his low offers, I said "i will think about it" again. The next day I rejected his offers via the agent. The agent called me again the next day saying "I must be the last person on earth you are expecting a call from" (since I rejected his offer the day before). He said "I have instructions from that director to get you into his office no matter what. Name your offer." Again I was reluctant to, thinking if their opening offer was $60,000, they surely can't afford $80,000. But that evening, another call from the agent said "ok this is their best proposal for you. $80,000 + super. And another gift bonus of $5000 if you sign the agreement."

ANOTHER COINCIDENCE? I didn't tell him my original intention of $80,000 + super and he offered me thinking it's his own idea.

I did it again this year, with a $90,000 + super(I got it as I intended AGAIN), while most offices were offering me $80,000, and the market was only $70,000. They gave me $90,000, even the recruitment agent was surprised!

The thing is, if you apply for it and think your skills is not worth $x anyway, then you can't get it for sure in reality. But what I did was, although the market was only offering $70,000 for people of my years of experience, I had the confidence in my skill and contribution at the back of my mind, and attract the company who needed someone like me and my skill and who can pay me what I want.

So Mind can influence minds on a subjective mental level. Ideas are flowing at the level of subconscious and it passes from one to another, the other picks it up and if the supply and demand matches them, they will act accordingly thinking it is their own idea. But all the while you know you are the one who originated that thought intent.

I'm sure I cannot go to any company I choose consciously and make them offer me a job and salary of $xyz, if they have no need for my skills. But I can with my intended outcome get what I want, from who? I don;t know, mind will arrange for me.

 

[2020hindsight]

Lol, God's sense of humour . what an interesting topic
If he made us in his likeness, then why not?
If we made him in our likeness, then again, why not?

Or is it a case of having coffee and scones with the boss and his wife, and you're only allowed to laugh when the boss tells the jokes

or maybe .... I remember Eddy McGuire on "Who wants to be a millionaire" , and someone came on and had told 3 jokes before Eddy could get out one, and lol - Eddy had to set him straight "HEY I TELL the jokes around HERE!" lol. (he was serious too)

As for the magic mushrooms - that has gotta be plausible surely.
Maybe those "tablets" haven't been "translated" correctly either

Arj Barker - Great Debate - Does God Have a Sense of Humour

so - "Moses burns up the desert in his triumph" ? - kosha ?

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.geocities.com/binnyva/bible/articles/humor.html

Does God Laugh?. The answer is yes. He Laughs. But not as expected.

"But You, O Lord, shall laugh at them; You shall have all the nations in derision." Psalms 59:8

"The Lord laughs at him, for He sees that his day is coming." Psalms 37:13

"Darts are regarded as straw; He laughs at the threat of javelins." Job 41:29

God laughs at men because of the futility of their efforts. Yet, it is evident enough that there are things that the Lord finds funny.