Is there a GOD?

[wayneL]

My thoughts exactly.

Never heard of Lao Tzu. Clearly he's a practical man of considerable intelligence.

I'll do a Google on him, see what information I can dig up. Anyone with that level of common sense is worthy of further investigation.

Writer of the Tao Te Ching. It's not known whether he was one person, or a composite.

Taoism has of course formed itself into a religion with various sects, but I like what I call "philosophical" Taoism, viz, the Tao Te Ching. So full of wisdom and common sense, yet at the same time, enigmatic. This way, each will take away what makes sense to him/her and probably something completely different to the next person. There is no doctrine, it's totally cool IMO.

 

[2020hindsight]

By the way, back there I guessed that (whereas 50% of Americans might believe in young-earth-creationism) the number in Aus would be less than 5%. In fact it was 5.4% - I admit I was wrong.

Dawkins is about as convincing as Hovind. Why is that so surprising? Do you have a prior commitment to Dawkins?

MS, I'd be amazed if more than 5% of people around here agreed with you that Dawkins and Hovind are equally convincing.

Just as long as we agree that Hovind (#171 or #172) and the "Kiwi banana man" are off with the pixies.
- stockguru's post #513 also refers.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=230584&highlight=hovind#post230584

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8203&highlight=evolution

 

[2020hindsight]

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=163052&highlight=scientists#post163052

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=230439&highlight=hovind#post230439

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=163105&highlight=bananas#post163105

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=156100&highlight=bananas#post156100

PS I meant to say #771 not #171 back there - apologies.

 

[2020hindsight]

I guess we can give our own reasons why we are religious, or agnostic, or atheist etc. Then there are some real gems out there in youtube-land.

Not sure if anyone has heard DOUGLAS ADAMS being interviewed - such a funny bloke (Author of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy). Turns out that Dawkins switched him from Agnosticism to Atheism. He explains why he is the latter rather than opt for the "wishy washy option" (in his words) of being an Agnostic (or a wishy washy Anglican for that matter).

DOUGLAS ADAMS: AMERICAN ATHEIST INTERVIEW

When Adams died young, in 2001, Dawkins gave this eulogy for his friend (who incidentally had introduced him to his wife).

"I once interviewed Douglas on television , for a programme I was making on my own love affair with science. I ended up by asking him “What is it about science that really gets your blood running?” , And here is what he said , again impromptu, and all the more passionate for that.

“The world is a thing of utter inordinate complexity and richness and strangeness that is absolutely awesome. I mean the idea that such complexity can arise not only out of such simplicity , but probably absolutely out of nothing, is the most fabulous extraordinary idea. And once you get some kind of inkling of how that might have happened – it’s just wonderful. And… the opportunity to spend 70 or 80 years of your life in such a universe is time well spent as far as I am concerned”

That last sentence of course has a tragic ring for us now. It has been our privilege to know a man whose capacity to make the best of a full lifespan was as great as was his charm and his humour and his sheer intelligence. If ever a man understood what a magnificent place the world is, it was Douglas. And if ever a man left it a better place for his existence, it was Douglas. If would have been nice if he’d given us the full 70 or 80 years. But by God we got our money’s worth from the 49!.

:topic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CziXZEoPg3c&feature=related Douglas Adams - 1/6 (set of 6 - not that I've seen em all)
amusing stuff for a rainy day

 

[2020hindsight]

Yet another look at Pantheism - you'd be in good company
Einstein, Hawking, Sagan

http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm?gclid=CKblzK2J2pECFQ2QggodbSmLeA

Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, has described Pantheism as “sexed-up atheism.” That may seem flippant, but it is accurate. Of all religious or spiritual traditions, Pantheism - the approach of Einstein, Hawking and many other scientists - is the only one that passes the muster of the world's most militant atheist.

So what's the difference between atheism and pantheism? Pantheism adds to atheism an embracing, positive and reverential feeling about our lives on planet Earth, our place in Nature and the wider Universe, and uses nature as our basis for dealing with stress, grief and bereavement. It's a form of spirituality that is totally compatible with science. Indeed, since science is our best way of exploring the Universe, respect for the scientific method and fascination with the discoveries of science are an integral part of World Pantheism.

If you are looking for atheist groups or freethought groups or brights groups and email lists, and if you would like ones that do a lot more than just attack religion, then you might find World Pantheism the place you were looking for.

Why go beyond straight atheism?

Does atheism need sexing up? As such, atheism answers only a single question: is there a creator God, or not? That's an important question, but if your answer is "no" it is only a starting point. You may have reached that viewpoint based on your respect for logic, evidence and science, and those too are vital values. Yet after you've reached that initial "no God" answer, all the other important questions in life, all the options for mental and emotional wholeness and social and environmental harmony, remain open.

If atheism, humanism and naturalism are to advance, then they need approaches that don’t simply leave the individual alone in the face of an increasingly threatening physical, social and international environment. They need ways of life that offer as rich a range of benefits as traditional religious ones.

Atheism is advancing. Growing numbers of people, across almost all nations, declare themselves to be non-religious or atheistic. Atheistic books on religion, like those of Dawkins, Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens, are best-sellers.

But so far atheism and atheist groups have focused on attacking conventional religions, especially the Western theistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It’s true that these religions often come with high costs: submission to written or priestly authority, belief in terrifying concepts such as demons, Apocalypse, Last Judgment and Hell, or the drive to impose one’s beliefs or religious values on other people. In many cases they give cachet and endurance to backward, repressive or destructive social values, developed in agrarian societies many centuries ago. And it's valuable to highlight these costs.

The attractions of religion

But negative critiques will not suffice. There are many motives beyond fear or habit why people hold fast to old religions or convert to new ones. There are many reasons besides ignorance and folly why they make religion the center of their personal and social lives.

Religions are not just a confidence trick on the part of prophets and preachers, or a self-destructive aberration on the part of believers. They have had social survival value in the past, and they continue to provide individual and personal benefits today, and these benefits are the source of their continuing numerical strength.

Religions provide communities of mutual support.

They overcome existential isolation and alienation, giving people a meaning for their lives and a sense of their place in the universe and nature.

They provide remedies for grief at the death of loved ones, and for the fear of one’s own death.

They combat the feeling of helplessness in a threatening world full of crime, conflict and disaster.

These benefits show up in the form of better health and longer life.

Of course, if you’re buying these benefits at the price of abandoning logic, ignoring evidence, believing in contradictions and impossibilities, teaching your children to fear a God who is getting ready to destroy the planet, signing on for social values that repress the rights of others, let alone sacrificing your life to slaughter those who disagree with you, then maybe the price is too high.

A naturalistic spirituality

Are these negatives an inevitable part of the bargain? They may well be an inevitable part of belief in the unbelievable or of uncritical adherence to ancient scriptures.

But is it impossible to get the benefits that conventional religions offer, without giving up one penny of the value offered by reason, science, and progressive respect for the human rights of everyone? Don’t we need approaches that offer the same range of advantages as supernatural religions – but without the costs?

Can there be such a thing as a religion without god, an atheistic religion or a religious atheism? The Buddhism of the Pali scriptures does not have a God or gods. Nor does the Taoism of Lao Tzu or ChuangTzu.

Can there be such a thing as a completely naturalistic form of “spirituality” with no supernatural elements?

At World Pantheism we have been exploring this possibility since the beginning of 2000 CE. We do so through our global and local mailing lists, through our magazine Pan, and through a growing number of local groups. We have lists about scientific and philosophical ideas, as well as about practical ways of developing our naturalistic spirituality. You can find links to these on our main page.

Our completely naturalistic Pantheism does not believe in any supernatural beings, forces or realms and is fully compatible with atheism and skepticism. As Richard Dawkins writes:

Pantheists don't believe in a supernatural God at all, but use the word God as a nonsupernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings.

In practice, while a significant minority of our members like and use the word God to express the depth of their feelings for Nature and the wider Universe, the majority do not use the word about their own beliefs.

There are other names for similar approaches, such as religious naturalism or naturalistic paganism. We have gone with Pantheism simply because it's the best known, and has a long pedigree.

Pantheist Atheists:-

Lucretius
[To Venus as Nature, mother of all things:]
You alone govern the nature of things. Without you nothing emerges
into the light of day,
without you nothing is joyous or lovely.

D'Holbach
Nature! sovereign of all beings! and you its adorable daughters, virtue, reason, truth! be forever our only Divinities. To you are due the world's incense
and homage.

Hume
It were better, never to look beyond the present material world. By supposing it to contain the principle of its order within itself, we really assert it to be God; and the sooner we arrive at that divinity, the better.

Shelley
There Is No God. This negation must be understood solely to affect a creative Deity.
The hypothesis of a pervading Spirit co-eternal with the universe remains unshaken.

Einstein
I do not believe in a personal God. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world
so far as our science can reveal it.

Sagan
A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.
Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.

Hawking
Larry King: Do you believe in God?
Stephen Hawking:
Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the universe.

 

[2020hindsight]

Who is a creationist and who is explaining the fossil record? I am simply an inquirer.

I am referring to the very first cell. When you think of what a single cell does to survive, it's very complex. Then you think about this thing duplicating itself.

How?

I'm interested in answers from one so wise.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=85175&highlight=zoan#post85175

Of all my distant relations, First was the miracle son,
I get to exercise 10 zillion body cells, Proto the Zoan had one;
Funny how fashions have shifted, Proto you son of a gun,
He didn’t get to have one raw emotion, I write strange ditties for fun

(ps "FFS" omitted because it adds nothing to most polite conversations)
http://mcwdn.org/Animals/Ameba.html

 

[roland]

Hey 2020hindsite, not meaning to be disrespectful - but you are tending to be overtaking this forum with copying quotes and references from all over the net.

How about your own opinions rather than inundating us with quotes from all over the internet.

Would really love to hear what's on your mind - most of us are pretty good with Google as well.

 

[Julia]

Hey 2020hindsite, not meaning to be disrespectful - but you are tending to be overtaking this forum with copying quotes and references from all over the net.

How about your own opinions rather than inundating us with quotes from all over the internet.

Would really love to hear what's on your mind - most of us are pretty good with Google as well.

Completely agree.

2020. You actually stopped this for about a week and it was bliss to be able to read through a thread without having to scroll down through endless U-tube video pictures. I've in the past asked if you would be kind enough to just post a reference to any U-tube video you think is relevant (?) so we can at least choose whether or not to click on that link.

As Roland says, we are all reasonably able to decide what we want to look up via Google or U-Tube and your constant force feeding is really irritating, especially when some of it at least is less than relevant to the actual topic being discussed.

I'm sorry if you find this request offensive. That's not my intention.
But I am really pleading with you to stop cluttering up otherwise interesting threads with all this stuff.

 

[2020hindsight]

Hey 2020hindsite, not meaning to be disrespectful - but you are tending to be overtaking this forum with copying quotes and references from all over the net.

How about your own opinions rather than inundating us with quotes from all over the internet.

Would really love to hear what's on your mind - most of us are pretty good with Google as well.

Roland, You're not being disrespectable m8
I have given them before ( we are up to post #800 odd lol), can't expect you to check back.

Here's a poem I wrote pretty much sums it up.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82450&highlight=christian#post82450

Let's say I'm a pantheist - fancy word (in my case) for a lover of Mother Nature - where you get your Words worth Made a point of checking out Lakes District in UK when I was there many years back now.
"And I have felt a presence that disturbs me with the joy of elevated thought".

I really liked that website I just found for "World Pantheism". (I'm also learning all the time ok? - I also enjoyed hearing Dougals Adams - and agreed with most of what he said - if I hadn't've agreed I'd probably have said so).

Followers include Sagan, Hawking , even Einstein etc - good enough for them good enough for me.

Einstein is often misquoted btw as being religious o rrather that he believes in God. - but he has clarified specifically that he does not believe in God as such, unless God is loosely used for Nature / merging into laws of physics etc.

On social front, that website on Pantheism acknowledges that people get strength from religion- and merges a bit of "religion" with atheism - (you'd have to read that post) - to get the best of both worlds.

Religious commandments? I just wish there was more emphasis on "lead me not into temptation" and less on "forgive us our trespasses". Leads to mountains of hypocrisy if you ask me. I believe that "an honest woman is the noblest work of "god", and an honest man is a close second". Let the ladies come first as they say

I believe Jesus lived, gave some great gigs up on the Mount etc - made a lot of sense with the principle of forgiveness. Trouble is only the Amish seem to practice his teachings if you ask me. More chance of an atheist following Jesus teachings than Fred Nile if you ask me.

And sure I believe people get strength from religion - the moslem prisoners were the most difficult to brainwash in Korean war days (so we were told in the Army anyways lol- then again we were told a heap of bull**** as well).

I happily use a concept of Heaven to comfort someone who has lost a relative etc. Heck if they believ in it you'd be cruel not to encourage them in that moment of grieving. But I have nil zilch expectation of actually ending up in Heaven - or Hell for that matter. Heaven is now here on Earth imo.

I initially thought that religion was responsible for most of the wars, but having started a thread to investigate exactly that i.e. the cause of many wars, I probably reckon it's at most 50%. Still, some present wars that would "go away" without the concept of "my god is better than yours" might include the Israel / Palestinian situation, Pakistan / India hostilities that flare up every now and again - Irish situation - where the UK army used to get warservice credits for service on home soil!! . Although the origins to the rish situation are religion, they go back such a long way that you'd have to say it's probably cultural these days I guess.

Certainly I'm very symapthetic to Dawkins - prodigious author, speaks in understandable terms, fantastic educator, Professor for Public Education in Science or whatever - who is trying to educate the USA away from the Adam and Eve thingo - "meme" or whatever, although I notice that Dawkins doesn't like the term meme much now. The US Bible Belt - and indeed right across the USA have decided to go backwards on the science education vs religion thing. And it doesn't look good for the world's biggest superpower to be dumbing down like that. (imo).

Watch this if you're interested in that lead. check out from the 4m30s mark to the end (8m 50s). They believe they came from Adam and Eve.


I can't stand Hovind. I love Carl Sagan. I can't stand the ridiculous nonsense that the bible gives ideas about use of the pill, and condoms - hence imo the Pope is directly responsible for massive man and woman-slaughter (if not damned nearly murder). Likewise homophobia allegedly found in the pages of the Bible. - absolute bs imo.

Extremism in the moslem faith has obviously gone off the deep end, what with people thinking they blow themselves up and end up with 70 odd virgins in heaven forever sheesh.

I spent many years in Asia , and I have a saffron Buddhist robe round here somewhere (and the odd poem yet again) . Tons of respect for Buddhists - until they start branding some kid the reincarnation of some Super Duper Dalai Lama etc etc

But as for loving nature ... I sure do, always have

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=90703&highlight=jaywalk#post90703

Don’t follow me, I'm lost,
Especially when I stand in ferns, Just where the creekbed gurgling turns, The soulfood that my heart so yearns
And I am left engrossed.

Don't follow me, I'm drunk
Intoxicated by the sound, Of Mother Nature all around, And Buddha chanting through the ground
the mantra of a monk.

Don’t follow me, I stray,
My puppy tugs, her eyes are glowed, She's chasing leaves back up the road, The next life she'll be frog, me toad -
If Buddha gets his way.

Im sorry if these rude retorts
Have caused offence - on second thoughts..
By all means walk with me - but know
That "lost" is standard "Way-To-Go".

By all means walk with me - and yes,
I'm lost, and love it I confess,
I kneel at Nature's altar… blessed,
And (when I'm lost)… caressed.

 

[2020hindsight]

Completely agree.

I'm sorry if you find this request offensive. That's not my intention.
But I am really pleading with you to stop cluttering up otherwise interesting threads with all this stuff.

Julia try reading that bit about Pantheism.
Imagine I specially posted it for you, ok?
Knowing as how you can't get youtubes etc .

 

[2020hindsight]

Joe,
Julia doesn't like scrolling down past embedded youtubes.
Do we have your permission to give a simple one line link to a youtube?
Or do you prefer the full embedment. ? thanks

 

[wayneL]

Roland, You're not being disrespectable m8
I have given them before ( we are up to post #800 odd lol), blah blah blah

What folks are saying 2020 (I think) is that they want a diversity of views, rather than wading through a great bulk of one persons view.

For instance, your definition of pantheism is very narrow. It is actually a broad church and encompasses such religious systems as hinduism and shintoism (I believe), as well as the non theistic version.

Also, attaching great names to the school of thought does nothing to add credibility. Einstein for instance has had his whole body of work shot to pieces by later scientists... and who know if they are even right? All that does is engender people to follow others thought, instead of some original thinking of their own.

A lot of people now call themselves atheists based on smart guy Dawkin's writings. Followers? What makes them different to the "faithful"?

Diverse views spark genuine thinking and lead people to find their own truth... and grant then that ferchrissake instead of trying to "sell" them on Dawkinsite atheism. He is just a searcher like all of us. His truth might not be the truth. I for one think he's an outright tosser, no better than Hovind.

 

[2020hindsight]

well I just found that website - as posted back there -
- it is well worth a read. imo.

http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm?gclid=CKblzK2J2pECFQ2QggodbSmLeA
it's called "world pantheism".
It's a very loosely defined "religion".

Pantheism adds to atheism an embracing, positive and reverential feeling about our lives on planet Earth, our place in Nature and the wider Universe, and uses nature as our basis for dealing with stress, grief and bereavement. It's a form of spirituality that is totally compatible with science. Indeed, since science is our best way of exploring the Universe, respect for the scientific method and fascination with the discoveries of science are an integral part of World Pantheism.

 

[roland]

I think the topic is too broad anyway. It brings in religion, creation, meaning of life, evolution etc

 

[Wysiwyg]

Watch this if you're interested in that lead. check out from the 4m30s mark to the end (8m 50s). They believe they came from Adam and Eve.

Well, we have few choices as to how human came to being.Fob James shows wisdom beyond his years

and his ego gets a warm rub from the audience as he exposes his (no not genitals ) small mind.

 

[roland]

well I just found that website - as posted back there -
- it is well worth a read. imo.

http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm?gclid=CKblzK2J2pECFQ2QggodbSmLeA
it's called "world pantheism".
It's a very loosely defined "religion".

There you go again 2020, copying websites again. I'm out of here, let me know when you have some of your own thoughts and opinions to post and I'll have a look.

 

[2020hindsight]

There you go again 2020, copying websites again. I'm out of here, let me know when you have some of your own thoughts and opinions to post and I'll have a look.

roland pppft
lemme try this in monosyllables
try
looking
back
to
post
#849

and don't do what seems to be becoming a common problem i.e.
...responding to the last post only

 

[2020hindsight]

If I could nominate a GOD I would nominate 2020hindsight for his contribution to this thread, Is there a GOD. Mate I just love your tireless work.You,ve got my vote

thanks peter lol

 

[wayneL]

thanks peter lol

Now you're a Bronte clone?

OMG, that was literally nearly 500 posts ago!!!!

 

[2020hindsight]

Now you're a Bronte clone?

OMG, that was literally nearly 500 posts ago!!!!

well I needed some support lol
and I've got a good memory for compliments

to be honest I was searching for old posts to refer to - and found that - but no biggie

I was really searching for this one
there are 10^21 stars out there (accoding to NASA)
that means that for a full moon - (just went out to check - I get enthusiastic ok?)
about the size of your little fingernail at arms length
that behind that small moon / fingernail there are

guess !
a) 15 million stars (about)
b) 15 billion stars (ditto)
c) 15 trillion stars... ?

try
d) 15 thousand million million (15E15) stars !

And each of them has many planets say 6 times that again. (all these numbers very rough)
and that just behind one little fingernail. !

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970115.html

PS I personally think that NASA really mean planets when they say stars - but heck as if it makes any difference to the point lol

and we have the gall to suggest that Earth is somehow the only one that "God is interested in"
absolute ...mmm not-very clever - if you ask me. : 2twocents

PS Area of sphere = 4.pi.r^2
radius arms length about 600mm
area of moon or fingernail about 10x10mm - say 8mmx8mm square to be conservative

ps g'day Bronte