Is there a GOD?

[2020hindsight]

poll questions are poor choices since to be a disbeliever (athiest) or believer you must first know who or what god is and no one does know (beyond reasonabel doubt either way)
recall a little quote that goes like " it is impossible for a religious person to think logically, because if you are capable of logical thought there is only one conclusion.........the religious will have to guess what that is."

treefrog , I'm guessing the answer is something akin to Vonnegut's quote

.. "all those who believe in telekinetics, raise my arm"

 

[bunyip]

Going by the stats in this survey it would appear that believing in God and trading on the market are polls apart

How dare you believe in god and make squillions

For someone to gain wealth in the market, someone has to lose, maybe thats why we have so few that believe in God

By the way I don't believe there is a God, but I am sure we have all prayed to a God for that winning trade...

Someone buys a stock for 4 and sells it to me for 5. I sell it to you for 6 and you sell it for 7 to someone who keeps it for a month then sells it for 8.
Can you tell me who lost in this situation, because someone else won?

As for the view that creating personal wealth conflicts with being godly....I'm not sure if you hold this view yourself or you were just kidding around.
But many people do hold such a view, and it's completely wrong. Just as it's wrong to let the love of money rule your life to the detriment of all else.

 

[szandor]

I find slightly amusing the relatively high percentage of people know there is a god,no question.Really?So you've obviously got proof then,i'd love to see it

 

[roland]

I find slightly amusing the relatively high percentage of people know there is a god,no question.Really?So you've obviously got proof then,i'd love to see it

I think that you will also find that this poll would be similar to any poll, where only people that have an interest (dare I say a passion) would bother to respond.

It's a bit like having a complaints department, and also a compliments department in a department store - which department would get the most calls? (even though we know most people are satisfied)

 

[bunyip]

I find slightly amusing the relatively high percentage of people know there is a god,no question.Really?So you've obviously got proof then,i'd love to see it

Me too.

If there's a god, then the obvious question is 'How did he or she or it get here in the first place - who or what created this god"?
I once put this question to a man of the cloth, and his answer was "It's not a question of how was God created. God always just 'was'."

Seemed like a pretty hollow sort of answer to me.

Not only do I find it utterly amazing that people, without any proof whatsoever, believe in God. I also find it amazing that otherwise intelligent people can accept as gospel truth some of the outlandish claims and stories that are part of the overall God story.

Take, for example, some of the biblical stories that are fed to kids in Sunday school and in religious instruction at school.
Jonah and the whale is one of them.
If my memory serves me correctly, Jonah displeased God in some way, and for his sins was made to live inside a whale for quite some time. Not only would this have killed Jonah, but it would have also killed the whale, since whales are plankton eaters whose stomachs and digestive systems are not equipped for processing humans. Yet both Jonah and the whale emerged unscathed from the experience.

Or the story of Noah's Ark.
God wanted to wipe out all the sinners of the world, so, being the nice bloke he is, decided to get rid of everyone, sinners or not, by drowning them. Everyone except Noah and his missus (I don't recall if their kids were spared or not).
All the animals and living creatures of the world were to get the chop as well, except one breeding pair from each species so that they could repopulate the world once God was finished drowning all their mates.
Noah, acting under direct instructions from his boss, God, got busy building a boat called an ark. And once he'd built his boat, his next job was to catch a male and a female of every species of animal and creature, and put them on his boat for safe keeping while God made it rain for 40 days and nights to produce a flood of such magnitude that even the flood stricken residents of Mackay would have been impressed if they'd been around at the time.
We can only guess at the impressive dimensions of a vessel that was large enough to house the hundreds of thousands or perhaps even millions of animals that were to live on it for the next 40 days and nights. We can only speculate on the amount of fodder needed to feed these animals. We can only speculate on the great variety of food needed to satisfy the diverse dietary requirements of these animals. We can only speculate on how Noah kept these animals separated so they didn't kill each other.
We can only speculate on how Noah managed to catch them all, feed them all, load them on to his boat, or build the boat in the first place. We can only speculate on how Noah managed to gather all this food, load it on his boat, and store it for safe keeping. Or how he managed the rather large task of feeding the animals their daily rations.
We can only speculate on how, once the flood was over and Noah grounded his boat and released the animals, the animals managed to survive and breed in sufficient numbers to repopulate the world. Seems to me that many animal species would have been killed out immediately, due to lions needing to hunt for their food, etc etc. One single pair of antelopes or zebras wouldn't keep a couple of hungry lions going for too long. And once they were killed, no more zebras or antelopes to repopulate.

Anyway, no need for me to go on.....you get the idea. The whole Noah's Ark story was obviously invented by someone whose policy was 'Never let the truth stand in the way of a good yarn".
The amazing part of all this is that Christians, well some of them anyway, actually believe this far fetched tale. It was told and retold to me as fact when I was a child in Sunday School, and retold to me again by the Christian minister who came to our school every Wednesday for religious instruction classes.
About two years ago on TV, a bunch of Christian believers declared they'd found the remnants of Noah's ark. The TV news reported the story as if it was indisputable fact.

 

[MRC & Co]

^^^^^^^^

ha ha, of course you cannot beleive biblical myths! How about the part of them rewriting the bible to restate what Jesus claims, that he will return to earth in his disciples lifetimes! Then he didnt, so they rewrote it!

Or the fact that the Romans who were oppressing his people were barely mentioned in the Bible? Messiah was a term meaning king, worldly king, saviour of the Jews, not some kind of godsend. Or reading Revelations, Heaven sounds an aweful lot like a GIANT castle! Who cares what the walls and the gates are made out of? Isnt that being materialistic? And couldnt a plane fly over and bomb "heaven"? Since it appears apparent to me it is on earth but protected by giant walls. ha ha, WTF.

How about the other books of Judus, Tom etc? Where did they go?

Bible is a bunch of hocus pocus, infact, I read that Jesus own brother was a traditional jew and that the immaculate conception was not real. The battle about Jesus "true" life story between he and who was it? (but apparently Jesus spoke to him from beyond the grave, yet he barely knew Jesus in his human lifetime) raged on and on until Jesus own family lost out and the stories about "jesus life" were circulated. Read a lot about this out of interest, but a while ago now.

I beleive there is a god out there, but I dont beleive in relgion. Not that anybody really knows. Just have to try get all the facts and decide for yourself.

 

[2020hindsight]

day 1 - let there be light
day 4 (I think) - let there be the sun.

not very scientific in those days .
Apparently it was a coincidence that the sun just happened to pop up each day just as god got out of bed with his torch.

 

[wayneL]

I find slightly amusing the relatively high percentage of people know there is a god,no question.Really?So you've obviously got proof then,i'd love to see it

Supposing you saw xyz occurrence, something which was not witnessed by anyone else and didn't leave any other physical evidence. eg You saw thylacine while bushwalking in Tassie.

You'd know that they still existed, no question, yet you'd have no proof.

I'm not building an argument for or against God, that's up to each individual, but just to show the weakness of that particular argument.

Cheers

 

[korrupt_1]

YES there is.

I asked him to get me out of the $h!t$ and he did a miracle for me

 

[szandor]

'Religion' in its many various forms over thousands of years was created by the people in power to control the mass population and its been doing it ever since.Through documentation and other evidence it is believed the bible was written 300 years after jesus' death(thats if he ever existed at all,interstingly jesus is not mentioned by any significant historian of the day,and keep in mind this is a guy that walks on water and performs miracles),which was commissioned to be written by the roman emperor Constantine,it is based on an ancient egyptian religion with a very similiar 'storyline',instead of jesus this character was know as isis,born to a virgin mother,on the 25 th december,killed and resurected etc etc,sound familiar?
Oh yeah,did i forget to mention that christians believe the world to be 12,000 years old,and that evolution didnt happen?How can intelligent people really believe this rubbish?

 

[wayneL]

'Religion' in its many various forms over thousands of years was created by the people in power to control the mass population and its been doing it ever since.Through documentation and other evidence it is believed the bible was written 300 years after jesus' death(thats if he ever existed at all,interstingly jesus is not mentioned by any significant historian of the day,and keep in mind this is a guy that walks on water and performs miracles),which was commissioned to be written by the roman emperor Constantine,it is based on an ancient egyptian religion with a very similiar 'storyline',instead of jesus this character was know as isis,born to a virgin mother,on the 25 th december,killed and resurected etc etc,sound familiar?
Oh yeah,did i forget to mention that christians believe the world to be 12,000 years old,and that evolution didnt happen?How can intelligent people really believe this rubbish?

Agreed, it's tosh.

But you have the dude in the sky meme. There could be another reality nobody has even thought of. Then again there might not. Then again a living cell spontaneously creating itself from mud, sourcing energy, eliminating waste, and procreating, all by chance would seem absurd too if we're really thinking about it.

Both require a leap of faith, your choice.

 

[Buddy]

Dont know if this has been said way back in this thread but I cant be bothered trolling back through 40 pages of this thread...................

Of course there is a God. And he/she (God) has a sense of humour. Why else would most of the world's (easy & cheap) oil be located in the middle east? That proves it to me.

 

[Dukey]

YES there is.

I asked him to get me out of the $h!t$ and he did a miracle for me

korrupt - care to elaborate on your miracle so we can consider/discuss - or are you just pulling our collective appendages.

 

[2020hindsight]

Agreed, it's tosh.

But you have the dude in the sky meme. There could be another reality nobody has even thought of. Then again there might not. Then again a living cell spontaneously creating itself from mud, sourcing energy, eliminating waste, and procreating, all by chance would seem absurd too if we're really thinking about it.

Both require a leap of faith, your choice.

I still get a smile when I hear creationists trying to explain the fossil record.

 

[MRC & Co]

Agreed, it's tosh.

But you have the dude in the sky meme. There could be another reality nobody has even thought of. Then again there might not. Then again a living cell spontaneously creating itself from mud, sourcing energy, eliminating waste, and procreating, all by chance would seem absurd too if we're really thinking about it.

Both require a leap of faith, your choice.

Exactly, either way, its a leap of faith. I like the part on another reality! I have often thought this too, I mean our "scientists" also find it extremelly hard to explain dark matter, dark energy (can our dimensions even see some of these things?) and what are black holes? Defy the laws of physics. I dont think our brain can even really comprehend the Universe and hence there could well be another reality that nobody has even thought of. Just understanding "space time" blows my mind!

Szandor, what are you talking about? Jesus was documented in many other texts of the time. A lot of gospels that never even made the bible documented him, as do other religeons.

As for the Roman texts, he would not have been a large figure to them, how many others were crucified at the time? He was probably one along the road of thousands! Its not like he was behind the walls, leading the siege rally against Titus and Vespasian!

 

[bunyip]

I once spent a few months corresponding by email with a bloke from the Gold Coast. Our correspondence was based on the Forex market, which we both had an interest in and were just starting to trade at the time. Turns out this bloke was something of a religious fanatic, although I didn't know it at first. But like many religious people, he gradually began bringing Christian references into his posts. I challenged some of his beliefs in this area, but as far as I was concerned our main focus remained the Forex market....the religion theme was very much secondary from my perspective. But not from his. His posts became more and more religious and less and less about trading.
He started questioning my own beliefs about God and religion, asking questions that I considered personal and none of his business.
Then one day he claimed that he was looking forward to his death, because that would be the beginning of his new life where he'd go up to Heaven and sit at the right hand of God his father, and help him run his kingdom. And that the same privilege could be mine or anyone else's, if we chose to be decent people by acknowledging God as our lord and saviour, and following his teachings in our day to day lives.

So I thought to myself, OK, time to try this bloke out a bit, really challenge his thinking, see if he can come up with any solid argument to support his beliefs.
So I fired off an email to him which read approximately as follows.....

Jim - You've stated that you'll be heading for heaven in the next life, where you'll sit beside God and help him run his kingdom. And that I and anyone else who so chooses, can do the same, providing that we commit to a life of declaring God to be our lord and saviour, and living decent day to day lives in accordance with his teachings.
But there's something that puzzles me. In the last several thousand years there must have been millions upon millions of decent people whose lives were so exemplary that they earned God's favour. Presumably (if what you believe is correct) these millions and millions of decent people must already be up there in heaven, helping God to run his kingdom. Now, this poses a couple of interesting questions.
1. Isn't God's 'government' going to be rather cumbersome if there are millions of people on the committee, all putting forward their suggestions?
2. Isn't the place going to be uncomfortably crowded with all those millions of folks living there?
3. With so much competition for God's attention, won't you have trouble getting close enough to him to even manage to say G'day God, let alone advise and consult with him on matters relating to the running of his kingdom?

I'm not trying to offend you here Jim....the above are sincere questions that have been going through my mind, and I really would be interested in hearing your views on this.

Maybe Jim thought I was offensive and unworthy of a reply. Or maybe he just didn't have any answers to give me, but didn't want to admit it.
In any event, I never heard from him again.

 

[wayneL]

I still get a smile when I hear creationists trying to explain the fossil record.

Who is a creationist and who is explaining the fossil record? I am simply an inquirer.

I am referring to the very first cell. When you think of what a single cell does to survive, it's very complex. Then you think about this thing duplicating itself.

How?

I'm interested in answers from one so wise.

 

[Julia]

Isn't it possible to be black and white about religion but still agnostic about some sort of spiritual dimension?

I'm completely opposed to organised religion and agree that it exists to (a) provide a means of control by zealous fundamentalists, and (b) provide a sense of structure and meaning for people who need the comfort of thinking there is a defined moral code, and also to stave off the fear of death.
Much nicer to think, like Bunyip's Forex correspondent, that this present existence is just the precursor to something much more wonderful.

But, just as I don't know that there is a God, I also don't know that there isn't. I wonder about the people who say they do know. Absolutely understand that they believe. Not the same as knowing. But to them it is and that's all that matters.

Anyway, I doubt that I'm the only one who has a bet each way. When I've been in the s**t from time to time, I have been known to mutter "If you're actually there, God, if you can get me out of this, then I will seriously consider believing in you!"

The results of these entreaties have been mixed so I'm no further ahead!

 

[Sean K]

Isn't it possible to be black and white about religion but still agnostic about some sort of spiritual dimension?

It might depend on the semantics in the use of the terms 'religion' and 'spiritualism' Julia. There's probably some cross over in the definitions that encapsulate both concepts.

Spiritualism is certainly part of religion, but perhaps ‘religion’ doesn’t necessarily have to be part of an individual’s understanding of their spiritualism. It’s certainly not part of mine.

Fundamental belief in any religion, lock stock and barrel, is bunk as far as I’m concerned. Quite profoundly idiotic, actually. (IMHO of course)

Perhaps you need to make up a decent definition of spiritualism?

But, from what I understand of the concepts, I'd have to say yes to your question.

 

[2020hindsight]

Who is a creationist and who is explaining the fossil record? I am simply an inquirer.

I am referring to the very first cell. When you think of what a single cell does to survive, it's very complex. Then you think about this thing duplicating itself.

How?

I'm interested in answers from one so wise.

Wayne if you're not a creationist, then the comment wasn't directed at you.

btw, So long as you don't say that
a) the "creationism-bible-version" and
b) 'evolution' (including the idea that we are all "flukes of the universe, no less tan the trees and the stars") ..

are "leaps of faith" of equal magnitude.