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Is Global Warming becoming unstoppable?

Interesting article with some facts that I'm sure not many were aware of, I certainly wasn't.
It's funny how those who deride Margret Thatcher for the closure of antiquated and uneconomical coal mines, are now calling for exactly the same things to happen, I guess that's narrative and mass media brainwashing for you. ;)


The first important political leader to put global warming on the agenda was a conservative. And not just any conservative, but one with an unmatched capacity to get left-wing blood boiling: Margaret Thatcher.

In those early days, it was environmental degradation by pollution, logging of old-growth forests and dams which were at the top of environmentalists’ concerns. Atmospheric pollution was considered dangerous primarily because of the health effects of particulates, and the threat to the ozone layer.
Thatcher was one of the first politicians – certainly the first world leader – to make an issue of global warming. Unusually for the humanities-laden British political establishment, her Oxford degree was in science. Her early career was as an industrial chemist. Thatcher’s interest in the issue sprang not from ideology and outrage, but education and expertise.

In two important speeches in the late 1980s, she articulated her concerns and demanded global action. In September 1988, in an address to The Royal Society, she said: “t is possible that with all these enormous changes (population, agricultural, use of fossil fuels) concentrated into such a short period of time, we have unwittingly begun a massive experiment with the system of this planet itself. ”
She described dealing with human-induced climate change as one of “the great challenges of the late 20th century.”

In November 1989, in a major speech to the UN General Assembly, Thatcher warned of the “insidious danger” of climate change and “the prospect of irretrievable damage to the atmosphere, to the oceans, to earth itself”. She went on to say: “It is mankind and his activities which are changing the environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways … The problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level.”
Perhaps because the early advocacy came from a conservative prime minister, the climate wars have never been a major feature of British politics. If anything, it was Labour who were the laggards, violently objecting to Thatcher’s closure of coal mines. (Although this was done for economic reasons, Thatcher pointed to the environmental benefits as well.) There have been prominent Tory climate sceptics, but they are few and far between.
 
Interesting article with some facts that I'm sure not many were aware of, I certainly wasn't.
It's funny how those who deride Margret Thatcher for the closure of antiquated and uneconomical coal mines, are now calling for exactly the same things to happen, I guess that's narrative and mass media brainwashing for you. ;)


The first important political leader to put global warming on the agenda was a conservative. And not just any conservative, but one with an unmatched capacity to get left-wing blood boiling: Margaret Thatcher.

In those early days, it was environmental degradation by pollution, logging of old-growth forests and dams which were at the top of environmentalists’ concerns. Atmospheric pollution was considered dangerous primarily because of the health effects of particulates, and the threat to the ozone layer.
Thatcher was one of the first politicians – certainly the first world leader – to make an issue of global warming. Unusually for the humanities-laden British political establishment, her Oxford degree was in science. Her early career was as an industrial chemist. Thatcher’s interest in the issue sprang not from ideology and outrage, but education and expertise.

In two important speeches in the late 1980s, she articulated her concerns and demanded global action. In September 1988, in an address to The Royal Society, she said: “t is possible that with all these enormous changes (population, agricultural, use of fossil fuels) concentrated into such a short period of time, we have unwittingly begun a massive experiment with the system of this planet itself. ”
She described dealing with human-induced climate change as one of “the great challenges of the late 20th century.”

In November 1989, in a major speech to the UN General Assembly, Thatcher warned of the “insidious danger” of climate change and “the prospect of irretrievable damage to the atmosphere, to the oceans, to earth itself”. She went on to say: “It is mankind and his activities which are changing the environment of our planet in damaging and dangerous ways … The problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level.”
She was a scientist and brought that discipline into Parliament. I have the greatest respect for her. One of the greats.
 
She was a scientist and brought that discipline into Parliament. I have the greatest respect for her. One of the greats.
Yes I never realised that of her, all I remember was my Dad and all the family hating her when I was a kid, my family were from North Yorkshire and were badly affected by the mine closures.
But history shows it was only a matter of time because the easy coal was gone and the remaining coal was so deep and expensive to mine it wasn't viable. So they imported coal and started to change to gas/nuclear and now gas/nuclear/wind and there are only two coal fired power stations still running in England and supply just 2% of generation apparently.
All the loonies go on about was the fact she closed the mines down, amazing how people can't see the wood from the trees, when they get fanatical.

I think @Smurf1976 has mentioned this before, but when you read an article it leads to other thoughts and as smurf said Thatcher just closed an already dead industry, similar to what Abbott did with the Australian car industry, but the narrative always paints the picture they want the mob to pick up and run with.
It's a shame the media has to be so fixated on headlines and sensationalism and fostering tribalism, rather than promoting sensible discussion and thoughtful presentations.

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Apparently there are 33 million tonnes of economically recoverable reserves available in the U.K at operational and permitted mines, plus a further 344 million tonnes at mines in planning.
Australia exported 363 million tonnes of coal in 2021

Two old coal-fired power plants have begun generating again as the UK expects to see its coldest night of the year so far.
The plants had been put on standby in case of shortfalls, but started feeding power into the grid this afternoon.
National Grid blamed high demand and a shortage of electricity from other sources.
The coal plants began operating in 1966 but were due to close last September.
However, operators have kept them open for an extra six months at the request of the government, amid fears of possible power shortages.
Temperatures are expected to drop to -15C (5F) in some parts of the UK on Tuesday evening, with snow sweeping parts of the country.

The cold snap is expected to last for the next few days, with weather warnings in place across the UK.
The two coal-powered stations that are in use again again are in West Burton in Nottinghamshire.
 
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It's funny how those who deride Margret Thatcher for the closure of antiquated and uneconomical coal mines
Thatcher copping the blame for the demise of British coal mining was itself a classic case of politics and the media radically distorting the truth.

Chart starts in the peak year of production, 1913:

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Production had already declined 58% from the peak by the time Thatcher became PM and employment in the industry had already dropped 79% with two major periods of decline, one during the 1920's and 30's, and the second from the late 1950's to the early 1970's.

All Thatcher did was pronounce the patient dead. In truth it's health had been ailing for 70 years at that point and the end was clearly in sight.

Draw some trendlines on those charts and she barely changed the trajectory. At most it could be said that production dropped faster in the 1990's than it might otherwise have been expected to, but the end point with production close to zero was always on track for the 2010's, that trend was already very clear prior to Thatcher having anything to do with it.

All of which brings me to the elephant in the room with this whole debate - fossil fuels are finite resources. It's depletion that killed British coal mining, nothing more and nothing less. There'd be the odd minor exception but overall the vast majority of the coal worth mining was mined in practice.

Same will inevitably happen everywhere if we keep using it. It'll take a long time, but it's ultimately a finite resource. Burning coal is living off our capital, it's not living off returns on investment it's eating the capital and that's inherently unsustainable. :2twocents
 
Apparently there are 33 million tonnes of economically recoverable reserves available in the U.K at operational and permitted mines, plus a further 344 million tonnes at mines in planning.
To put that into perspective, the UK's peak rate of coal mining was 292 million tonnes in 1913 and the peak of consumption was 218 million tonnes in 1956.

At this point it's akin to finding a few random coins under the cushion. Worth having perhaps but it's no biggie. :2twocents

UK historic coal consumption chart:

1692537498838.png


Coal went from the everything fuel at its peak in 1956 to the almost nothing fuel just 20 years later, at which point everything apart from electricity and steel had either abandoned it already, or was rapidly doing so.
 
The accumulation of heat in oceans is now critical. This story highlights the effect of massive global warming over the past 40 plus years.


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Did you see the latest Antatrtic figure/graph?.Bit of a worry.
II don't think most scientists thought this would happen till at least 2030.

Open and click on Antarctic.
These graphs show what an unparalleled collapse in sea ice around Antarctica looks like

This story highlights one of the consequences of this sea ice collapse.

Emperor penguins: thousands of chicks in Antarctica die due to record-low sea ice levels

Breeding failures in the Bellingshausen Sea ‘without precedent’ as multiple colonies across large region all fail in a single season

Graham Readfearn

@readfearn
Fri 25 Aug 2023 01.00 AESTLast modified on Fri 25 Aug 2023 13.23 AES


Thousands of emperor penguin chicks across four colonies in Antarctica are believed to have died because of record-low sea ice levels that caused a “catastrophic breeding failure” in late 2022, according to new research.
Analysis of satellite images showed the break-up of usually stable sea ice and the disappearance of the colonies at a time when chicks had not yet grown their waterproof feathers.

Scientists have said emperor penguins face an uncertain future under global heating because they are so reliant on sea ice, which is projected to decline as the world’s oceans heat up.
The breeding failures in the Bellingshausen Sea were “without precedent”, the research said, as it was the first time multiple colonies across a large region had all failed in a single season.

 
What else is happening environmentally as a result of the rapid increase in global temperatures ?

Indonesia’s tropical ‘Eternity Glaciers’ could vanish within a few years, experts warn

..... El Niño weather pattern could accelerate melting of 12,000-year-old glaciers, with one expert saying he was now able to document their ‘extinction’

The glaciers, which he said were among the few left in the tropics, are the 4,884-metre-high (16,000ft) Carstensz Pyramid and the East Northwall Firn, which is 4,700m (15,420ft) high, in the Jayawijaya mountains in the easternmost region of Papua.

The glaciers had thinned significantly in the past few years, Donaldi said, going from 32 metres in depth (105ft) in 2010 to eight metres (26ft) in 2021, while their total width fell from from 2.4km (1.5 miles) in 2000 to 230 metres (755ft) in 2022.


But little could be done to prevent the shrinking, he said, adding that the event could disrupt the regional ecosystem and trigger a rise in the global sea level within a decade.

“We are now in a position to document the glaciers’ extinction,” added Donaldi, a coordinator of the climate research division of the agency, known as BMKG. “At least we can tell future generations that we used to have glaciers.”

 
Perhaps Industry could use Carbon Credits to offset their CO2 emissions ? Like pay to plant/save billions of carbon soaking trees?
Of maybe that was just a load of hooey to provide a transparent fig leaf of cover for companies that weren't willing to go carbon neutral themself.

 
The accumulation of heat in oceans is now critical. This story highlights the effect of massive global warming over the past 40 plus years.


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What's really critical Bas is what we as individuals are doing about it, after all we are the consumer demand that is driving the climate change, I've installed solar panels, changed all appliances to high efficiency electric, have purchased an EV, mainly use public transport or the electric bike or scooter, have Aldi electric lawn mower, hedge trimmer, pole saw etc.
How are you going with your own carbon footprint, other than being head poster printer and cheer leader for climate action?
 
What's really critical Bas is what we as individuals are doing about it, after all we are the consumer demand that is driving the climate change, I've installed solar panels, changed all appliances to high efficiency electric, have purchased an EV, mainly use public transport or the electric bike or scooter, have Aldi electric lawn mower, hedge trimmer, pole saw etc.
How are you going with your own carbon footprint, other than being head poster printer and cheer leader for climate action?
Oh yeah? We've gone back to horses and live in a cave shivering around a single candle, eating ground roots and grasshoppers.

<Cue next Yorkshireman> :laugh:
 
What's really critical Bas is what we as individuals are doing about it, after all we are the consumer demand that is driving the climate change, I've installed solar panels, changed all appliances to high efficiency electric, have purchased an EV, mainly use public transport or the electric bike or scooter, have Aldi electric lawn mower, hedge trimmer, pole saw etc.
How are you going with your own carbon footprint, other than being head poster printer and cheer leader for climate action?
Yes.... and No SP. It's far more complicated isn't it ?

Yes I do more than my "little bit" in reducing my carbon footprint and supporting activities/programs that work in the wider community. I will not go into sparring contests on just how much I am doing on my block. It's always open to improvement or disparagement isn't it ?

Addressing decarbonisation of the economy is a mammoth whole of society task. It's effectively a total war mobilisation program at this point in time.. As I have said repeatedly on ASF, what once in the early 1990's could have been a rapid but orderly changeover of industry, commercial, building, and consumer behaviour is now probably beyond any foreseeable good result. We are now looking at least worst outcomes.

Having said that an essential part of the process of moving decisively is gaining a widespread agreement that we have a serious , existential problem and that it must be a world priority. I think ASF is a conservative representative of a microsom of society. In that context given the views of most of the most vocal posters, there is no chance we can create the political buy in that might result in the full throated response required.

2022/23 has seen huge step changes in climate and the inevitable consequences on our environment. And yet... none of this seems sufficient to change the views of those on ASF who view CC as a hoax, inconsequential in impact, or the deadly serious problem it is.
 
I see basilio has taken me off ignore, and still refuses to acknowledge that people can have a nuanced opinion.

In basilios workd people either fully on board with the climate cult or are complete deniers.

This is really just religious thinking and and no way logical or critical thinking.

Please put me back on ignore so I don't have to keep pointing this out.
 
I see basilio has taken me off ignore, and still refuses to acknowledge that people can have a nuanced opinion.

In basilios workd people either fully on board with the climate cult or are complete deniers.

This is really just religious thinking and and no way logical or critical thinking.

Please put me back on ignore so I don't have to keep pointing this out.

Indeed we all suffer Wayne.

Don't accuse me Wayne of being the bearer of extreme/cataclysmic views on CC. The world is going through convulsions through uncontrollable fires, extreme heat waves, unprecedented losses of sea ice, massive rain events.

Each and every time these events happen climate scientists note they are the realities of global warming. But in your nuanced world ?? Nothing to see here. Move on.

Your disrespect for climate scientists does you no favours.
 
Synchronicity is always interesting. As I signed out from my last post I came across this story which, in the context of what is happening and will continue to happen, has a resonance.

The world is burning. Who can convince the comfortable classes of the radical sacrifices needed?

Justine Toh

Simone Weil’s life illustrates the capacity to give up the things we feel we’re owed – such as a carbon-intensive consumer-driven lifestyle
Sat 26 Aug 2023 01.00 AESTLast modified on Sat 26 Aug 2023 13.20 AEST

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ses-of-the-radical-sacrifices-needed#comments
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Nero fiddled while Rome burned. The saying takes on new meaning after the hottest July ever, devastating wildfires in Greece and Canada, and the declaration by the UN secretary general, António Guterres, that we’ve left behind “global warming” for “global boiling”.
But this time our Neros – AKA governments – aren’t the only ones shirking their responsibilities. What are the rest of us doing while the world burns?

Feel helpless yet? Me too. The climate crisis calls for a radical rethink of our cushy, carbon-heavy lives and our collective willingness to make sacrifices for future generations. But raised in a world of comfort and convenience, I get annoyed when there’s no wifi. I don’t do sacrifice. I need someone to show me how.
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Simone Weil, the French philosopher, political activist and not-quite-Catholic mystic, died 80 years ago. Although known for her work on attention and affliction (very basically: extreme, dehumanising suffering), Weil wasn’t one for abstract theorising. Hers was a lived philosophy demanding she put everything on the line – and with a zeal that qualified her for “secular sainthood”, as one recent biography puts it.

If anyone can offer us an earthly education in sacrifice, it’s Weil. Even if she’s a hard act to follow. Albert Camus called her “the only great spirit of our time”. She intimidated Simone de Beauvoir, her classmate at the Sorbonne (“I envied her for having a heart that could beat across the world,” De Beauvoir wrote of Weil’s distress for famine victims). I mean, as a six-year-old, Weil gave up sugar in solidarity with French soldiers during the first world war. Clearly, she was no ordinary kid.

Still, she gives us, kids of the comfortable classes, some hope. We have ideals but perhaps we don’t quite know – as she did – how to suffer for them. Even if we back urgently cutting emissions, we don’t know how to evict ourselves from what the historian Dipesh Chakrabarty calls “the mansion of modern freedom [that] stands on an ever-expanding base of fossil fuel use”.

..... The point is: when it comes to giving up things, we need to start somewhere and do something. I may not feel built to make sacrifices, but then neither was Weil. A relatively privileged child, she could have remained comfortable. But she didn’t, which makes her our patron saint for pushing us out of our comfort zones. Even if the sacrifices we make on behalf of the planet never fully imitate her, who knows? Deciding to do without some creature comforts might yet change both us and our world.

It may be impossible to live (and believe – she’s not so secular, on closer look) as uncompromisingly as Weil. But we need our saints, if only to be inspired by them. If we’re going to survive a changing climate, a changing world, we need all the help we can get. We could do worse than read the life and work of Weil. As the philosopher Iris Murdoch said: “to read her is to be reminded of a standard”.


Another observation of the life and work of Simone Weil
 
Indeed we all suffer Wayne.

Don't accuse me Wayne of being the bearer of extreme/cataclysmic views on CC. The world is going through convulsions through uncontrollable fires, extreme heat waves, unprecedented losses of sea ice, massive rain events.

Each and every time these events happen climate scientists note they are the realities of global warming. But in your nuanced world ?? Nothing to see here. Move on.

Your disrespect for climate scientists does you no favours.
Still a mendacious ****
 
Yes I do more than my "little bit" in reducing my carbon footprint and supporting activities/programs that work in the wider community.
At a personal level well I've never owned any car with more than a 4 cylinder petrol engine in it and I've done what's practical to save energy at home, recycle and so on. I sure aren't keen on overconsumption for the sake of it either.

The big one though would be convincing, or trying to convince, governments what needs to be done and what's not worth doing. There's been a few wins but clearly not enough. Suffice to say though I don't buy the mainstream media view as to where the various political parties stand, having seen enough behind the scenes to know the truth.

Biggest problem with all of this is society as a whole is far too down the track of yelling and screaming, believing or denying, and really doesn't have its mind around what needs to be done. There's far too much denial of what needs to happen and at the same time making up "required" actions that aren't really required at all which amount to someone using climate as a convenient cover to push some other agenda.

In truth there's a lot of things that simply don't add up but which, driven by whatever motive, many keep repeating over and over. Look at the maths though and it's nonsense. Meanwhile that noise drowns out the things that actually do need to change. :2twocents
 
At a personal level well I've never owned any car with more than a 4 cylinder petrol engine in it and I've done what's practical to save energy at home, recycle and so on. I sure aren't keen on overconsumption for the sake of it either.

The big one though would be convincing, or trying to convince, governments what needs to be done and what's not worth doing. There's been a few wins but clearly not enough. Suffice to say though I don't buy the mainstream media view as to where the various political parties stand, having seen enough behind the scenes to know the truth.

Biggest problem with all of this is society as a whole is far too down the track of yelling and screaming, believing or denying, and really doesn't have its mind around what needs to be done. There's far too much denial of what needs to happen and at the same time making up "required" actions that aren't really required at all which amount to someone using climate as a convenient cover to push some other agenda.

In truth there's a lot of things that simply don't add up but which, driven by whatever motive, many keep repeating over and over. Look at the maths though and it's nonsense. Meanwhile that noise drowns out the things that actually do need to change. :2twocents
I'd put this down to Green Left activist teachers frightening kids about climate change and not enough science education to teach them how to actually do something about it

Maths and science are too hard these days apparently, much easier to tie yourself to a tree and expect someone else to do something.
 
@basilio If CO2 is the cause, why bleat about it on here to an Australian audience who have zero control of the weather and never have?

It doesn't matter if we are believers or deniers one iota.

What's the point? What are you satisfying? What feedback are you after?

If you really want to make a difference some how, why don't you actually address the real issue.

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The four tenants. Move up and down depending on audience.

1. Global warming is not real. It's about scientists' falsifying data.

2. OK my nuanced opinion is that maybe it s real but it's natural, not man made.

3. OK Even if it's man made We can't do anything about it so should ignore the problem.

4. Ok , the shts hitting the fan but anyone who who mentions it shall be called a ###.
 
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