- Joined
- 19 July 2016
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- 94
At some point there needs to be a real economy producing things not just government printing money.
I don't know where the limit is but there must be one. Eg it wouldn't work at 100% that's obvious so there's a limit in there somewhere.
Maybe it is designed to keep those businesses that are viable going, while those that are not viable, do not reappear after this is over.
Worse case scenario seems to have started.
I'm seeing government videos telling Australians they need to accept they will be giving up their human rights and freedom and they need to just accept it and trust the government. I'm hearing governments around the world are saying this. The world is just about under house arrest.Any thoughts on what the market does tomorrow if we announce a lockdown tonight?
Sorry, I mean worse case for businesses.1)The stimulus is only to help with the virus temporarily
2)High probability virus economic impact will eventually diminish to negligible
3) High probability people will spend, work and travel again
My real question is really directed to the numerous people who are saying it is 1929 chicken little chicken little.
Its easy to say this is the end everything is 90% down the property market will crash etc.
I cant seem to understand why or how this will happen.
If someone can just give a rational explanation of how it will happen.
How will this temporary virus lead to a deleverage.
1)The stimulus is only to help with the virus temporarily
2)High probability virus economic impact will eventually diminish to negligible
3) High probability people will spend, work and travel again
My real question is really directed to the numerous people who are saying it is 1929 chicken little chicken little.
Its easy to say this is the end everything is 90% down the property market will crash etc.
I cant seem to understand why or how this will happen.
If someone can just give a rational explanation of how it will happen.
How will this temporary virus lead to a deleverage.
Any thoughts on what the market does tomorrow if we announce a lockdown tonight?
And donald thought he could play the trade game. The chinese govnuts will be laughing at the end of this at dumb western societies.I'm seeing government videos telling Australians they need to accept they will be giving up their human rights and freedom and they need to just accept it and trust the government. I'm hearing governments around the world are saying this. The world is just about under house arrest.
I wouldn't be surprised if the market doesn't open tomorrow, but if it does there will either be some funny business or it's going to be ugly.
And donald thought he could play the trade game. The chinese govnuts will be laughing at the end of this at dumb western societies.
Let the games begin.
Wouldn't shareholders be screwed if they start touching the equity of companies ?They can't cope, taxpayers will be picking up the bill. I really hope governments take equity as part of their bailout packages. But I doubt it.
With so many things now cancelled or shut a formal lockdown is fast becoming a technicality anyway.I think the market will price it in regardless of when the announcement is made.
My real question is really directed to the numerous people who are saying it is 1929 chicken little chicken little.
Its easy to say this is the end everything is 90% down the property market will crash etc.
I cant seem to understand why or how this will happen.
If someone can just give a rational explanation of how it will happen.
According to a previous post (#309), GDP loss in 1929 was 26%.
Various estimates already put GDP loss in 2020 at a comparable order of magnitude. Goldman Sachs says 24%, others have differing figures but nobody's saying 1% or 2%, we're looking a big number most certainly.
A particular difficulty is that when this all ends, when the lockdowns are lifted, two basic problems arise:
1. Many businesses will likely have failed given a significant period of zero income meanwhile costs continue to be unavoidably incurred.
2. A large portion of consumers have lost money either due to financial market declines, loss of paid employment or loss of business profits.
3. Governments will have truly astounding debt levels. That's going to have an impact somehow.
End result is that consumers have less money to spend and less to spend it on. There's the ongoing GDP drop which will take quite some time to recover from.
Even if someone could fly from Melbourne to London on the 1st of October 2020, there's not going to be too many people who have any interest in doing so unless the flights and accommodation are stupidly cheap. Most are going to be trying to restore their own investment balances, businesses or employment at that point, they're not going to be spending on non-essentials like major holidays indeed may workers won't have any leave available anyway.
Now consider that every other non-essential industry faces some degree of the same impact. Nobody who loses their job or sees their business run into serious difficulty decides that now's a good time to renovate the kitchen and buy a new car for example.
I have no crystal ball, I could well be wrong, but given the scale of impact it seems like this is going to take a very long time to recover from.
Take the 1991 recession for example. It might have ended in 1991 but it was still very much doom and gloom several years later in the real economy. The recession was still a major factor in politics 5 years later and it wasn't until about 1998 when there was widespread confidence once again.
The ASX spent a full decade getting back to 1987 levels and more recently it took 12 years to regain the 2007 high. For that matter the high of January 1970 wasn't reached again until September 1979 and the 1937 high wasn't regained until 1945 and the 1951 high wasn't seen again until 1958 so there's plenty of examples of the market taking close to a decade to recover.
So to the extent that anyone's pessimistic, they're really only looking at the past and noting that other such hiccups took quite some time to recover from and are assuming this one will be at least as bad given the severity of the downturn.
I do acknowledge of course that I could be completely wrong. All I'm doing here is comparing to past market tops and recessions and noting that they all took many years to resolve and assuming that this one would do much the same. That's no guarantee....
That the market has gone straight through prior lows and other logical support points without even flinching is what's most alarming. The left hand side of the chart and any analysis based on it may as well not exist at the moment it seems.another day, and down again
Note this is referring to the US marker but much the same for Australia:
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