Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Has the recession begun?

Has the recession begun?

  • Yes, clearly

    Votes: 20 17.5%
  • No, but it will soon!

    Votes: 46 40.4%
  • No, we won't have a recession

    Votes: 35 30.7%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 13 11.4%

  • Total voters
    114
Next year is going to be interesting im sure !
A pun?Interesting in the sense that the Americans will probably continue to lower interest rates instead of increasing to fight inflation as well as increased rates here to fight the same devil.
But to the topic-

Guest Commentary, by Richard Benson
The economy's last hurrah
December 07, 2007
Richard Benson is president of Specialty Finance Group, LLC , offering diversified investment banking services.


As 2007 wounds down, it’s time to reflect on how bogus government statistics along with Wall Street media hype have impacted the psychology and perception in the financial markets. Sheer disappointment is one way to describe what the financial markets will experience as the existing belief in a Goldilocks economy is challenged by sobering facts and a hard landing, yet to come.
The US Economy is in terrible shape! Our government has been psychologically manipulating the American people every time they publish blatantly false data on employment and income that makes our economy look stronger than it really is. If the average American realized how bad things were, they might try to save more. But spending would collapse if they did, so the goal of the Bush Administration seems to be to hide any signs of a recession as long as possible.
The big reason the economy is going over the cliff is not the direct result of the sub-prime mortgage debacle and the hundreds of billions in investor dollars that have been lost, although this is a major contributing factor. The reason, we focus on, is that the economy is already in recession as a direct result of homeowners having had that ATM ripped out of their house. Stories like the homeowner who purchased a home for $100,000 years ago but got carried away in the frenzy of the last decade by doing 4 cash out REFI’s, running their mortgage balance up to $625,000 while living large, are last year’s stories. That $800 billion a year in Mortgage Equity Withdrawal ("MEW") has come to a sudden end and with the average homeowner no longer living large off the house, the economy is left with that "big sucking sound".
The US economy is continuing to weaken in many areas: The US Treasury has received lower income tax receipts forcing state and local governments to cut back because they’re coming up short; capital gains on home sales are falling as home prices fall; property tax receipts are also declining as assessed values go down; weak retail sales mean lower sales tax receipts; corporate profits are down, along with corporate taxes paid; and, many self-employed workers may be employed, but they’re not making anything or only half of what they used to.
Moreover, America is not the only country with an economic problem. The housing bubble is turning out to be worldwide, with a major impact on England and much of Europe. The biggest economic losers include the emerging markets, especially China. Don't believe for one second those Wall Street touts selling the notion that the emerging markets have "decoupled" from the US economy and their growth will lead the world forward without the American consumer. That’s hogwash. Where do you think their trade surpluses and big sales gains (driving investment in plants and equipment) came from anyway? From the American consumer and MEW! Take $800 billion of easy spending away from the American consumer and you're going to see a lot of blow back in lost sales by the emerging market countries, including China.
As the recession takes hold, I see this holiday shopping hype as the Economy’s Last Hurrah, but it’s not just the American economy that’s going to hear that "big sucking sound" in the New Year!
 
I agree with all that Richard said in that article ..... there is one more absolutely MONUMENTAL liability the USA faces and is woefully unprepared for, one that seldom if ever gets mentioned, their upcoming social security obligations to a Generation born at a rate greater than that at any other time in human history, aka the Baby Boomers ....


Taxpayers owe more than a half-million dollars per household for financial promises made by government, mostly to cover the cost of retirement benefits for baby boomers, a USA TODAY analysis shows.
Federal, state and local governments have added nearly $10 trillion to taxpayer liabilities in the past two years, bringing the total of government's unfunded obligations to an unprecedented $57.8 trillion.

That is the equivalent of a $510,678 credit card debt for every American household. Payments on this delinquent tax bill must start soon if financial promises to the elderly are to be kept.

The cost of retirement programs will start to soar when baby boomers — 79 million born between 1946 and 1964 — begin collecting Social Security in 2008 and Medicare in 2011.

Americans' government obligations are five times what people owe for mortgages, car loans, credit cards and other personal debt.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-24-retiree-taxpayers_x.htm
 
This is article good reading to, written a year ago with many things actually coming into fruition since publishing .... :eek:



Is Cheney Betting On Economic Collapse?
By MIKE WHITNEY

Wouldn't you like to know where Dick Cheney puts his money? Then you'd know whether his "deficits don't matter" claim is just baloney or not.

Well, as it turns out, Kiplinger Magazine ran an article based on Cheney's financial disclosure statement and, sure enough, found out that the VP is lying to the American people for the umpteenth time. Deficits do matter and Cheney has invested his money accordingly.

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney07052006.html
 
Yes our outcome will depend alot on the depth of it in the US.

I read a few punters saying that the low USD will off set the damage with greater demand for made in USA, but if consumer demand is falling in many other western countries I dont see Chindia consumers picking up the slack .... I mean look at the average incomes in some of these places.

Sovereign wealth funds can pump as much as they like into US corporations if they like, but if the consumer is retreating (along with their real incomes via inflation) the only medicine will be the very poison that got us here in the first place, low interest rates and pathetic lending standards ! ...

Next year is going to be interesting im sure !

I also believe that the U.S will go into recession but i think we will avoid it.

I think it's a very valid point about the U.S$ and at this early point is one of the reasons i believe that a recession there won't be a long drawn out affair.

You are correct about consumer spending but the U.S$, while not making up for this completely, will certainly have a positive effect on exports.
 
I also believe that the U.S will go into recession but i think we will avoid it.

I think it's a very valid point about the U.S$ and at this early point is one of the reasons i believe that a recession there won't be a long drawn out affair.

You are correct about consumer spending but the U.S$, while not making up for this completely, will certainly have a positive effect on exports.

Really how will we avoid it?

We might just get by on agriculture but even then you have to ship and move it..........
 
Here another interesting read, a paper discussing " Is the US Bankrupt " ?

Many would scoff at this notion. They’d point
out that the country has never defaulted on its
debt; that its debt-to-GDP (gross domestic product)
ratio is substantially lower than that of Japan and
other developed countries; that its long-term
nominal interest rates are historically low; that
the dollar is the world’s reserve currency; and
that China, Japan, and other countries have an
insatiable demand for U.S. Treasuries.
Others would argue that the official debt
reflects nomenclature, not fiscal fundamentals;
that the sum total of official and unofficial liabilities
is massive; that federal discretionary spending
and medical expenditures are exploding; that the
United States has a history of defaulting on its
official debt via inflation; that the government has
cut taxes well below the bone; that countries holding
U.S. bonds can sell them in a nanosecond; that the financial markets have a long and impressive
record of mispricing securities; and that financial
implosion is just around the corner.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/06/07/Kotlikoff.pdf
 
Maybe we will have a Keating recession, "the one we have to have". But if we do the recovery will take us to new highs. All you need to know is where is the low. Like kids in the car "are we there yet?"
 
The general consensus amongst the Aussie bank & fundie chief economists appears to be the US spending most of H1 in recession (assuming they are not already in one technically? Damn lagging economic indicators) however most agree Australia is likely to avoid the worst of it.

Either way we should know how much the Bush administration's efforts to draw out the ARMs resets peak month from April 08 will effect the credit crisis shortly. In Australia it has already created a radical re-think of treasury operations for all major players - inter bank warehousing is growing astonomically as treasuries are adopting mountains of prime debt (in Australia it really should be called a credit quality crisis) to re-balance their book quality.
 
Jan. 4 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. economy may be on the verge of -- or already in -- a recession, based on the increase in 2007's unemployment rate, economists said.

The jobless rate rose to 5 percent in December, the highest in two years. The figure was 0.6 percentage point higher than March's 4.4 percent, which was the lowest reading of the expansion that began at the end of 2001.

``Since 1949 the unemployment rate has never risen by this magnitude without the economy being in recession,'' John Ryding, chief U.S. economist at Bear Stearns Cos. in New York, said in a note to clients. ``We now put ourselves on recession watch.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aROBkKxFM.RM&refer=home
 
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Martin Feldstein, the Harvard economist credited with being one of the fathers of the Bush administration tax cuts, says the U.S. economy is now likely to slip into a recession, and that avoiding one will take a new round of tax cuts and interest rate cuts from the Federal Reserve.

Feldstein is president and CEO of the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), the organization charged with determining when the economy is in a recession and when it is growing. He told CNNMoney.com that he had thought the chance of a recession was about 50-50 even before last week.

But he said he now believes a recession is likely, as he pointed to both a report from the Institute of Supply Management showing manufacturing activity in decline for the first time in almost a year, and Friday's December jobs report that showed a jump in the unemployment rate to a two-year high.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/07/news/economy/feldstein/index.htm

Woot some of the reputable people are coming out of the wood work and adding 6 cents worth, This fella says odds are greater than 50/50 EVEN if the Fed keeps cutting rates , maybe these guys are starting to read some Internet blogs lol ? :eek:
 
Goldman Sachs has become the second Wall Street bank this week to declare the US economy is headed for recession this year.

The bank's chief US economist, Jan Hatzius, argues that the latest economic data shows recession has now arrived in the world's biggest economy - or will shortly.

Hatzius, whose warning comes a day after economists at Merrill Lynch issued a US recession alert, added that the Federal Reserve will now cut interest rates from the current 4.25pc to as low as 2.5pc by the end of this year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/money/2008/01/10/cnsachs110.xml


Some more topguns joining the Bear Brigade ....

Wow 2.5pc Interest rates, that'll hook us up with a nice dose of Inflation, RBA might have to go up by about us much as they go down ? :eek:
 
Here's an exercise that may answer your question, regardless of it being Australia or US. Whenever the unemployment rate moves off a low by 0.5% the stock market goes into bear mode.

You can download the data from www.rba.gov.au back to 1977 or so. It has never failed, nor has it in the US. Australia still looks healthy in this regard with record lows still being seen. However, in the US the unemployment rate was 4.4% in March this year. Its now 4.7%. When it hits 4.9%...


I would add that employment is a lagging indicator and that by the time the unemployment rate ratchets up by half a percent recessions are usually in full swing.

Both comments proving true!!!!!!
 
Finally someone having a crack at quantifying the effects to Australia ...


Recession will hit Australia, says Goldman


INVESTMENT giant Goldman Sachs has downgraded its forecast for Australia's economic growth by almost $100 billion over two years. Goldman Sachs is also the second Wall Street bank in a week to warn of an impending US recession.

It said the latest figures indicated "recession has now arrived, or will very shortly". Economists at Merrill Lynch warned clients on Monday of a 100% likelihood that the US would fall into recession within a year.

And Goldman Sachs said the US recession, which it expects to last until the fourth quarter of this year, would have a knock-on effect for Australia.

http://business.theage.com.au/recession-will-hit-australia-says-goldman/20080110-1lb2.html
 
Yes , Wys well brought back .

..... and every housing market collapse with depth , has ALWAYS led to a recession or worse . It's the levels here that really worry me , we've never witnessed one as expansive as this .
Unfortunately it hits many small businesses on the boundaries of the sector hard too , another type of domino effect .
 
Maybe worth reviving this old thread as i think its a bit more relevant nowdays ?

Board fears recession and the blame game
Peter Martin
August 20, 2008
WHAT'S driving the nine members of Australia's Reserve Bank board? Their deepest, most primal fear. It's that Australia will slide into recession and their fingerprints will be all over it.


The board members are worried Australia's banks made things hard for them last month by pushing up rates all on their own
and they are also worried that economies worldwide are weakening.
Very worried.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/board-fears-recession-and-the-blame-game-20080819-3y8i.html
 
Thanks to runaway inflation, most people's real wages are already in recession. Rate cuts might postpone a technical recession until next year though.
 
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