GTP - Great Southern Plantations

[remoteone]

You can express interest in class action against PIS at
http://www.slatergordon.com.au/pages/class_actions_great_southern_timbercorp.aspx

 

[wooduk]

Guys that is what the lawyers and Kordeamentha re.timbercorp and McGrath Nicol would like,I am a blue collar worker,with no legal or accounting back ground,but I have learnt in life you need a bit of common dog sense to see in this game that you will get nothing from this unless everybody pulls together.

Advisers are in the same boat as the investors and growers,

Go back and read my priors,and it will and is the only way to come out the other end,remember you signed up for ten years.Project transform only did us a favour, to meet other malcontents like me and show what idiots the GTPmanagement were flagging P.T> even if it would have shown up later than sooner.
Be Proactive and get into taking the RE on collectively and do not give the liquidators any joy while he nicks $5mil a month

 

[remoteone]

Wooduk,
Thank you for educating me. I went back and read your posts. I advise others who have,like myself not read enough of this thread to do the same. I will be contacting TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL before even considering taking action against the PIS group. Your right, the FA's involved in MIS promotion stand to loose a lot of business if they dont try to assist their clients. A lawsuit against PIS would be counter productive. Only a collective force of growers, investors and advisors can push ASIC and ATO to rule that the receivers hand over management of these projects to a new RE. If is left up to the receivers, there will be $0.00 left.
Ive got
-3 Lots with Timbercorp 1999 that should be harvested this year.
-33 Lots on KI with GS 2005
- and I guess my 10 droves of cattle will never be seen again.
Taking class action against GS regarding my STOLEN cattle investment might be ok (but again..wheres the money gonna come from?), but not for the Timber Plantations.
We need a new RE for Plantations. And if one was to take action against PIS, now is NOT the time to do it. That would be a last resort if at all.

copied from previous post:
TOWNSHEND PRUDENTIAL
PHONE 03 98796555
email: Townshend@immm.com.au
email: bzm2003@bigpond.com AFSL 223947
Townshend Prudential P/L

PH: 61 03 98796555 FAX: 61 03 98794466 Townshend Prudential Pty Ltd
Townshend Prudential- Financial Planners ‘The Bottom Line is “YOU’.

 

[jiml]

Remoteone, in my experience receivers have two goals, not necessarily mutually exclusive: the first is to meet the needs of those appointed them and secondly, to extract as much cash as possible without making it too obvious so something complicated is pretty well up their alley. The problem with an individual becoming a RE is that you own 1/1000 or thereabouts of the product on land owned by some other entity. My guess is you would need to ensure all other stake holders were in agreeance. What you do about those who are not, I am unsure, possibly buy them out?. I would think for those with crops maturing in the next couple of years or so, such a move may prove beneficial.

If contributor 37 to the Senate Committee is right and that GTP is in fact a Ponzi scheme (or in our parlance) pyramid selling, the directors may be liable and as John Young has made lots of $s out of share transactions and more recently the purchase of loans (at some considerable discount), he may be a target worth pursuing.

I had a look at the 4 corners episode which has the transcripts of the interview with cameron Rhodes. Makes intersting reading....

 

[wooduk]

Remoteone I need you and others understand that this RE or Co-Op is a big decision for an investor to take.You have to decide if
1/ Is it financially viable for you,understanding that with anecdotal information in researching and canvassing the locals in the green triangle that the locals do not blink at the the thought of paying $3000 per ACRE,that is $7500 per Hectare.
Why they are not concerned about that is that I am surmising that is what timbercorp and GTP paid the owners for their farms.
No wonder Macquarie Rural put the slipper in at the senate inquiry because they retreated when GTP hit town to buy up.

The discussion that I have had with some of the locals and check the real estate agents that the trees will default to them (my opinion)and then down they come then return the land to cattle grazing after ripping and resting the land.


2/what is the price of the treed woodlot?,and I don't mean GTPwoodlot of 3 to one hectare.
A hectare 100mX100M=10000M2-----GTPwoodlot 330m2

GTP said 250m3 per lot----which lot?,one hectare lot or a GTP woodlot?

Let us work this together on some notional sums without inflation,cpi etc

Take worst case scenario ,1 hectare is a woodlot and suppose we halve what GTP said rounded down to 120m3 per H

Green timber felled for chips at $40 per tonne/m3 (40% of the tree is water,the rest is carbon or tree fibre) at stumpage or royalty
OR
Dry Bone Tonne Loaded On Board sometimes called at the mill gate
Latest price at the gate was ITC a subsidary company of Elders of former Futuris and I can be corrected that Elders is not travelling to well but doing a lot better than GTP
Price at the gate $207.50 per LOB--from this deduct harvesting,chipping on site and transporting to the mill gate----,just a heads up work on the same maximum radius as what is designated the green triangle and work from the maximum distance to on load at portland

I have not given any thought on how you would get the trees off Kangaroo Island as GTP was suppose to build a processor there,but as I understand it now the trees I assume would have to be harvested and chipped on site and transported by the ferry to the mainland then hauled to the nearest mill.

See here is a prime example of trees in the GTP calendar ready to come down in 2016,but what if now!?

In a collective or what ever it suits you to call it,if it was mine I woud not harvest then,But get a sufficient amount to thin out and Value add them for structural and or wait for a better price.Remember in this owners RE scenario you have more control,but not total,and in that newsflash you do not carry a total loss either,

Wooduks first law of forestry fizziks-for every action there is a re-action.

But I am confident that you will do alright,it will take a bit longer maybe

On the cattle,well Iam involved with the IWC directly and it is a woman with other women and their handbags(husbands) doing this,I for one just like the people caught in this do it on weekends and pay out of our own pockets,my accountant is $20000 out of pocket and no she did not advise me on GTP,

At present we believe breaking the cattle duffing is a priority and the Feds have been in contact and the senate inquiry is aware,but I also believe that there is a class action in WA by agroup of lawyers called Solomans,but where that is no idea

My brain is hurting ,and I am hoping all and sundry will please look at this CO /op,contributing constructive ideas and possibly a better way of getting people involvved to empower and make this succeed is paramount especially for the Agri Industry,The benefits and spin off for this industry and actually seeing something that grows and can be recycled awesome

 

[jiml]

Wooduck,
My guess is that the land is the only asset of GTP which will be flogged by the receivers to satisfy the club of banks and they will have no problem convincing the court of that action. Unless there is a new RE (or REs) then the receivers will no doubt recommend to the court that each project be wound up with a distribution to woodlot owners.
Are there other alternatives?

In regard to the droves of cattle, does anyone know whether they have been sold in total or in part?

 

[wooduk]

Wooduck,
My guess is that the land is the only asset of GTP which will be flogged by the receivers to satisfy the club of banks and they will have no problem convincing the court of that action. Unless there is a new RE (or REs) then the receivers will no doubt recommend to the court that each project be wound up with a distribution to woodlot owners.
Are there other alternatives?

In regard to the droves of cattle, does anyone know whether they have been sold in total or in part?

There is an article reported that Charters Towers had a big day on the 12th of July and a lot was but not all GTP cattle,to add to this townsend,my accountant had alerted the federal stock police on this matter before the sale on the 12th,it is now a police matter and now on behalf of the people in cattle with the IWC has asked McGrathNicol for the record where is the money as it is believed the cattle are stolen.
There are other cattle issues and I can not use it,because Iam not allowed until it happens,sorry.Be patient and see what comes.

The trees are your property,you can go and cut them down now if you wish,I am not advising it though,there are bigger fish to catch,and does not that make you an equal (creditor) with the banks,it is your property not the banks.

As my accountant said,why did not the GTP trustee tell you that a another mortgage was placed on the land that your property is located?.
You paid the money for it and then the RE or trustee does a behind scene without you knowing,get real banks.As a tenant on the banks property,Iformally inform you that I have kept my end of the financial deal and paid off and in advance on my trees and what they are growing on I now expect you the bank to maintain like any land lord ,the property that you the bank believes is yours in a fit and habitable state with no further cost to me,otherwise terminate the original agreement in my, the tree growers favour and compensate me for my fair and reasonable return that I expected to receive at the expiry of the contract.
Failing that let us do a deal that is a win win for the hurt parties and we-the growers will bargain in good faith to purchase the land with our trees and other investors if they should wish.Mr. bank we could even take a loan from you and have a win -win.

Otherwise this will be a long drawn out process

 

[Avi]

Hello,

This is my 1st post on this forum.

I am a Beef Cattle 2007 investor.
So far I haven't approached any legal firm.

My question is:
Can I participate in some legal option so that my loan is written off?
I don't wish to get compensation, I just want get out of this mess.
I don't want to be paying loan for something I don't have.

Are the lawyers trying to persue this outcome?

Thanks.

 

[remoteone]

The trees are your property,you can go and cut them down now if you wish,I am not advising it though,there are bigger fish to catch,and does not that make you an equal (creditor) with the banks,it is your property not the banks.

Great info Wooduk,
If my 1999 Timbercorp trees are still standing, then you'r saying theres nothing stopping me contracting a company to log my woodlots?
I could cut and split for firewood and sell off at about $200+ per ton retail rather than sell as woodchip.
Ive simplified the process but you see what I'm getting at.

As for the GTP GS 2005 KI plantation, those trees wont be worth harvesting yet.

Excuse my ignorance, who is IWC?

 

[brty]

Remoteone,

I could cut and split for firewood and sell off at about $200+ per ton retail rather than sell as woodchip.
Ive simplified the process but you see what I'm getting at.

Sounds easy and profitable, until you realize that sugar gum, a much better burning wood, sells for $10-15 per m3 as standing trees to the firewood merchants, who then cut, split and dry it, then retail it for ~$90-$100 delivered. This happening in the green triangle area.

brty

 

[wooduk]

Talk about closing the barn door after the horse bolted,ASIC needs to first investigate the following ------------it self first

1/Was any person or persons in contact with the directors in Timbercorp and or GTP?

2/In what context and to what extent?

3/Was it generally known or specifically giving advice to the the companies and to what extent?

4/Was the contact with ASIC and the company directors at arms length?---if not,why not?

5/Under the Asic organisational chart,who was in charge and where does the specific paper trail start and finish?

6/Were the staff of ASIC competent and thorough in their due diligence?

7/Is ASIC an advisory body?,in the context that it only records in an advisory capacity and is restricted in making and or recommending a correction to be able to act on or another law enforcement body to investigate?

8/Has any person persons in ASIC or for that fact any government authority including educational institutions had formal and or informal discussions even in private
in regards to gtp and timbercorp?

As a tax payer I am entittled,to know this so has to be able to have confidence in making a proper informed investment decisions

*******************************************
I refer and urge people to reread the article in reference to the alert that ASIC got TWO AND HALF YEARS AGO,and this is tabled at the senate inquiry
************************************
In the mean time hammer ASIC,this is a set up to fold GTP and Timbercorp.
ring them fax them email them .Ask will the FIRST investigation will be in ASIC it self

Remember Hackett is a director of GTP,and was with ASIC for several years before he went to Great Southern



ASIC look at schemes

July 16, 2009
THE Australian Securities and Investment Commission has set up a special taskforce to examine managed investment schemes.

The Weekly Times understands the taskforce was set up following the failures of MIS giants Timbercorp and Great Southern.

The team will look at how best to protect investors and will also examine a range of regulatory issues.

The Weekly Times also understands the taskforce will carry out surveys with MIS investors, asking them about their investments and the responsible entities.

An ASIC spokeswoman would not comment on the issue.

 

[wooduk]

I've been having a squiz at the parliamentary inquiry reports from various professional,legal entities and people who live and make up the back bone of this country the agricultural industry in this cephlobodic city and suburban society,you learn something new eveyday.
It is pulled partly from a submission by Dean Glyn Jones
*********************Quote
So, what can we learn from the GS and Timbercorp fiasco? First up, we were never interested in Timbercorp because they leased all of their project land, whereas GS owned the majority of their land. The 2008 Future Forestry project was the first time GS allowed investors to own the land on which the woodlots were grown. This came about after many years of urging from advisers like me. This land was often owned by a related party, e.g., wife on a lower income, via a unit trust structure. My understanding is that around 70-80% of the land purchased by the land trust investors had been transferred by GS to the land trust, before GS officially imploded. This land trust, being a separate legal entity, begs the question of how the GS Administrator will
be able to claim back that land, now that it is held in another legal entity. So, the unit trust structure has performed as it was designed to do, i.e., protect the assets held within it. Although the ATO indicated they preferred an unlisted company structure to hold the land for the aborted 2009 project, the unit trust still appears to be the better option. What about the woodlots themselves? Well, you cannot introduce a unit trust structure for investing into the actual woodlots. Why? Because the amount invested into the basic woodlot parcel is really prepaid management fees for looking after the lot over the estimated 10 years before harvest occurs. However, what is to stop you interposing between the scheme manager, e.g., GS, and the grower, an arms-length custodian to whom the $3,000 is originally sent. Imagine a large filing cabinet (trust account) wherein the $3,000 sits. As the scheme operator moves through the various stages of managing the lots, e.g., planting, fertilising, pruning, clearing of weeds, etc., they present an invoice to the custodian (who may or may not have a qualified person check that the work has been completed) and then gets paid for each completed stage of the management of the lots. In around 10 years time, there will be no more cash left in the filing cabinet. That is how it should be because the little seedlings tended over the years have now become healthy trees, are harvested with the harvest proceeds (after harvest costs) accruing to the investor. That is how it is supposed to work and the only thing missing is the arms-length custodian. Hopefully the enquiry will not end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater - you just need to change the water. Respectfully yours, Dean Glyn-Evans

 

[wooduk]

Great info Wooduk,
If my 1999 Timbercorp trees are still standing, then you'r saying theres nothing stopping me contracting a company to log my woodlots?
I could cut and split for firewood and sell off at about $200+ per ton retail rather than sell as woodchip.
Ive simplified the process but you see what I'm getting at.

As for the GTP GS 2005 KI plantation, those trees wont be worth harvesting yet.

Excuse my ignorance, who is IWC?

Sorry for not replying sooner
Rem 1
The Iwc is the Independent Woodgrowers Co-Op,there are several posts that make mention of it and I am right into it,it is made up with my accountant and other clients that are affected by this.It has no bling,what you speak to what you see,no pretence and trying bloody hard to get more people to take control themselves and collectively become farmers for want of a another description.The numbers are too small at around 400 involved it keeps you busy.Oh and I noticed a couple of them whom I am not to give up,sms'd me and said my numbers are wrong on the Harvesting,I say they are correct,I am betting them a dozen bottles of blue gum wine,

 

[wooduk]

A new senator to send your and other comments from ASF,you have permission to email mine to the senator .I have alerted her staff have a high expectation to be flooded from ASF in regards to Timbercorp and GTP since this ripoff was exposed
If you have problems just goople the senators name and follow the direction

Senator Michaelia Cash
Senator for Western Australia
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[jiml]

Wooduck, frankly I don't know what the pollies can do at this stage. Certainly they can ask questions of ASIC and legislate for the future, but other than blaming someone (not within heir own party) what positive steps can they take to claw back our cash? As Korda-Mentha are indicating in respect to Timbercorp non-bluegum plantations (look forward to the case of bluegum wine, I assume a blue rather than red or white) it may be impossible to unscamble the mix and flogging the lot and then distributing to growers may be the only fair solution. Arguably GTP is simpler inasmuch as there are seperate REs each with legal identities but the issue I alluded to previously arises, namely that if some growers want to proceed down the road suggested by KM as against establishing a new RE, how is that resolved? My guess is only by existing growers, or others, purchasing their lots. How a purchase price could be established only John Young would know (usual commission rates of 38c in the apply).

 

[wooduk]

Wooduck, frankly I don't know what the pollies can do at this stage. Certainly they can ask questions of ASIC and legislate for the future, but other than blaming someone (not within heir own party) what positive steps can they take to claw back our cash? As Korda-Mentha are indicating in respect to Timbercorp non-bluegum plantations (look forward to the case of bluegum wine, I assume a blue rather than red or white) it may be impossible to unscamble the mix and flogging the lot and then distributing to growers may be the only fair solution. Arguably GTP is simpler inasmuch as there are seperate REs each with legal identities but the issue I alluded to previously arises, namely that if some growers want to proceed down the road suggested by KM as against establishing a new RE, how is that resolved? My guess is only by existing growers, or others, purchasing their lots. How a purchase price could be established only John Young would know (usual commission rates of 38c in the apply).

JIML
Your comments on the various schemes in timbercore and GTP,needs me to think a bit more about it,but in a nutshell there will be some that will miss out and that is blunt

On the politicians HIT them with your threads and comments,I know it may seem a waste of effort it is NOT.
You do care?,You can see the long term benefit for yourself,people believe in yourselves,I have read some ,no aLOT of clever comments from technical analyist to down right knoock em out,

What thread am I up to now on ASF since I joined?,it is a few,and the end game is each investor who is prepared to go further and run it together.

Remember---a news article stated that this is the biggest corporate swindle in corporate history in Australia
KPMG is a waste of time in chasing as they never tended a valuation as to what the values of the assets were worth--check it please
Macquarie are dirty on FEA are doing brass(money)
Elders are bleeding,even though they put a brave face on ITC sales recently

So it is important if not to you,but to me and hundreds if not thousands of others that you forward ALL of your ASF and other comments to Senator Cash and let every body know you have done

What have you got to lose?,and remember this is unique to Aussie corporate history and you are part of it.

GO FOR IT

 

[jiml]

Spot on Wooduck. Yep, every avenue needs to be explored. Those who have perpetrated this mess need to be brought to account. Political pressure may lead to some action.

 

[wooduk]

Spot on Wooduck. Yep, every avenue needs to be explored. Those who have perpetrated this mess need to be brought to account. Political pressure may lead to some action.

Exactly JIML, do not let the Australian investors who believe inn this country be fobbed off by these bastards,and do not let the politicians treat us the the same way the communist government treat the AUSTRALIAN opposition and government over the Hu Stern arrest and detention without charges and and proper representation as what I would expect if locked up for B.S.

This is what is and will happen to you as investors,you know the whole 48,000 of us in gtp and timbercore WILL be analysed and found to be the easy way to legally take your assets and the grubs will get the assets that rightly belong to you and the banks including Bendigo will financially screw you.

On the advisers,that creamed the millions you are going to be thrown to the wolves,and no politician will be saving you,rightly or wrongly the advisers are and will be a major casuality in this,Certified Practicing Accountants have done a good job on advisers that are not in their club

Retribution and reactive action needs to be dealt with,but I am saying again,again and again you and if not thousands of investors in these plantations run it ourselves.

Simplistic statement,agree,feasible yes,and the spin off from every investor
is in the long term in owning the land ,options on value adding for structural grade timber.A virtual continuous recycle of forestry core production in chips,plus after debt reduction other horizons such as cattle working in synergy ith the regional and local communities.

Did you know that cattle calving like to settle in quiet tree covered areas?,have you thought of the what agistment per head a grazier would pay per head for cattle to graze on plantation land?,have you thought that a pest introduced in in Australian rivers called carp makes a great fertilser on gums to the point that bugs and insects are significantly reduced?
Don't beleive me,go and by a few ltres follw the instructions and try it on your garden,please don't tell me that is not scientific,!

On the lollies,we need to bombard them -send a submission,call for a royal commission,call for a watchdog like the building industry has the ABCC,
After all this is as big as the construction industry!

 

[wooduk]

Fingers pointed at advisersArticle from:article: Herald-sun
July 16, 2009 12:00am
MOST of the 1100 financial advisers who sold questionable tax-break schemes in agribusiness investment company Great Southern were not recognised by the industry, a Senate inquiry has been told.

More than 45,000 investors had money in managed investment scheme (MIS) products with the company when it was placed in receivership in May.

The products aimed to provide immediate compensation for investments in timber plantations that would otherwise take a decade to mature.

Many people were encouraged by advisers to invest solely for the tax breaks rather than the long-term investment.

But only 155 of the advisers were registered accountants or financial planners with tertiary qualifications.

CPA Australia, which represents more than 95,000 finance, business and accountants, said only 75 of its registered members sold products for Great Southern.

CPA general manager Paul Drum said they did this despite being aware that making an investment based on the tax deductibility features was not a very good way to make money.

He said CPA had not taken sponsorship or marketing money from groups that use MIS schemes for many years.

"We don't want to be seen as passively approving these types of investments," he said.

But it was not the same story for the Institute of Chartered Accountants Australia (ICAA), which told the hearing that 80 of its members had sold products for the company. Head of financial planning Hugh Elvy said the institute had taken sponsorship money from Great Southern during the past year.

Its suggestion to limit the tax deductibility of managed investment schemes to the income received on individual schemes was criticised by CPA Australia.

Mr Elvy said the idea was raised as a result of the recent collapse of the two schemes.

Quarantining tax deductibility benefits to income generated from a particular investment rather than the investment in general would occur if the idea was adopted.

The Senate revelations came as the liquidator at Great Southern's smaller rival Timbercorp, Mark Korda, stood down 23 workers employed in its forestry business.

The workers were asked yesterday to take leave without pay until September 30 or to take redundancy with their full entitlements.

Mr Korda said last night that, by accepting leave without pay, employees had a better chance of retaining their jobs if a new owner could be found for the business.

But he expected most to accept an immediate redundancy.

The Victorian Supreme Court has heard that a winding up of olive and almond-growing projects run by Timbercorp was the best chance investors had of getting any return.

Mr Mark Korda is seeking orders from the court to wind up the olive and almond projects, claiming there are insufficient funds to continue to operate them under their existing structure.

 

[wooduk]

Is this our salvation or demise?


Fund managers chase Great Southern property
20/07/2009 11:02:00 AM
Fund managers and property executives have offered to buy Great Southern Funds Management Ltd and part of the Rural Opportunities Fund, which it runs.
According to The Australian Financial Review, one of the offers has its origins in a management buy-out proposal that was close to being completed before Great Southern went into receivership on May 18.

That offer came from David Bryant, the Canberra-based founder of Rural Funds Management and the Diversified Agribusiness Fund. Great Southern bought both in 2007 and then rebranded them as Great Southern Funds Management and Rural Opportunities Fund respectively.

McGrathNicol has control of the management company and the fund, because of the parent group's problems, but both are still solvent.

"I would still be happy to buy it back through the receivers, but they are compelled to work through an open-bidding process," Mr Bryant said. "Hopefully in new hands it will prosper."




The Australian Financial Review
Source: http://www.afr.com