Wooduk and Shiraz,
In the case of GTP, how much bank loans are secured and how much are not? Or they are all secured?
GTP - Great Southern Plantations
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Wooduk and Shiraz,
In the case of GTP, how much bank loans are secured and how much are not? Or they are all secured?
Jake-- I am posting a anothers called SDE from H.cop they are more clued up than I am.Personally I would have thought nothing is secured,everthing is hocked up to its neck,Shraz indicated $200 million on T1 AND T2,to pay that you need a lot of change,or script,yes ?No?at best 2nd guessing.
below is SDE comment
Quote
There is actually considerably more debt than that.
Club Bank Facility $380 million (ANZ, CBA & Mizuho)
Debenture $250 million (ANZ)
(These facilities have all the land as security)
Trees2 $80 million ) Unsecured
Trees3 $120 million ) Unsecured
Total $830 million
105 million of Club Bank plus 80 million of Trees2 needs to be refinanced Sept/Oct 2009.
This year's MIS sales likely to be hit by 3 factors
1. By GS's own admission, MIS investments likely to lose money for investors (see forecasts for 98-03 plantation projects)
2. Severe reputational damage from Project Transform
3. Less need for tax effective investments due to current financial circumstances.
Still has considerable liabilities (maintanence and capital costs) for continuing projects not yet provisioned for.
If only money grew on them trees!
end quote
If others reaading this please bring upto speed ,I am basically a crayon butcher paper level.
ASIC has called me back regarding the complaint I made a few weeks/months ago and wants more information to investigate. Sounds like they are finally considering doing something.
She wants references to prospectuses quoting 250m3 yields and says that there is nothing lodged post 2003? Is this possible? I thought someone said something about a 2008 prospectus?
If people can provide me with links to or copies of erroneous/dodgy information I will pass it on to her.
Thanks very much.
She wants references to prospectuses quoting 250m3 yields and says that there is nothing lodged post 2003? Is this possible? I thought someone said something about a 2008 prospectus?
If people can provide me with links to or copies of erroneous/dodgy information I will pass it on to her.
Thanks very much.
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Hello Belrose,
2004 PDS on page 22 and 2005/06 PDS page 25, identical:
GSMAL undertakes rigorous site selection techniques to ensure suitable properties are included in the Project, and all land is physically assessed by a professional forester as being capable ( under normal conditions) of producing at least 250 cubic metres gross of harvestable timber per hectare of Woodlots after 10 years of growth.
2004 PDS, Indep. Forester's Report, page 43:
….....we believe it is reasonable to assume an average growth rate of 25 m3 gross per hectare per annum of Woodlots sold. We also believe that there is upside potential, given advances in silvicultural practices and genetics, to achieve growth of up to 30 m3 gross per hectare per annum........
Much the same on page 47 of the 2005/06 PDS.
You are very welcome to these documents, I have spare copies.
Hi Belrose,
You're welcome to my spare copy of the 2000 prospectus quoting 250 m ³ and also has a point in the contract that states each grower invests individually, with no partnership etc created between each growers, GSL, or anyone else. Quite contrary to their "majority vote" scenario. As far as I can work out a majority vote to change the constitution to then allow majority votes is against the contract. Its a contract, can the constitution change that?
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Hi again
Found more old GSL plantation prospectuses.
They all include a table 'ASSUMPTION' in the section PROJECTED RETURNS:
2000/2001 Mean annual increment: 25-30 cubic metres p.a. Page 29
2001/2002 Mean annual increment: 25-30 cubic metres p.a. Page 25
2002/2003 Mean annual increment: 25-30 cubic metres p.a. Page 27
2003 Mean annual increment: 25-30 cubic metres p.a. Page 29
2004 Mean annual increment: 25-30 cubic metres p.a. Page 25
2005/2006 Mean annual increment: 25 cubic metres p.a. Page 25
Description of mean annual increment:
The rate at which trees grow, measured in terms of cubic metres per hectare per annum.
Can't find any newer prospectus.
there is belief a significant forestry buyer operating out of the UK in the market for plantations.
It would believe that the best option for investors would be to band together to repel the outrageous 'offer' that GTP are making and instead offer to join with GTP to sell the land and the trees to the investment group as two seperate transactions making up one deal.
GTP will not make this offer to timber investors because they are hoping that the investors are too stupid - after all, who in their right mind would accept the current piece of floss that has been offered (a suprisingly large number of people as it turns out albeit a minority.) GTP are clearly hoping that their investors are mugs.
GTP as a business does not deserve to survive - but the timber investors do not deserve to be fleeced either. An equitable deal would allow an honourable outcome to all. AND, if GTP have actually bought all their land at fair market prices then they can live or die on their merits - not this standover they are dishing up.
In my personal opinion nobody should have accepted this deal if they went into the transactiuon believing the prospectus for each project.
If the performance has not been up to scratch due to actions of the company (or anyone believes they have been misled) then they should join a class action.
There are no shortages of alternative managers for the projects and nobody could argue that there has been anything special about GTP's operational skills after observing the results of the first projects.
Cheers,
P.s.comes from a very astute investor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berkshire Hathaway vice-chairman Warren Buffett commenting on poor financial management in companies, "Its only when the tide goes out you find who was swimming in the nude."
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the
experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-- Douglas Adams.
It would believe that the best option for investors would be to band together to repel the outrageous 'offer' that GTP are making and instead offer to join with GTP to sell the land and the trees to the investment group as two seperate transactions making up one deal.
GTP will not make this offer to timber investors because they are hoping that the investors are too stupid - after all, who in their right mind would accept the current piece of floss that has been offered (a suprisingly large number of people as it turns out albeit a minority.) GTP are clearly hoping that their investors are mugs.
GTP as a business does not deserve to survive - but the timber investors do not deserve to be fleeced either. An equitable deal would allow an honourable outcome to all. AND, if GTP have actually bought all their land at fair market prices then they can live or die on their merits - not this standover they are dishing up.
In my personal opinion nobody should have accepted this deal if they went into the transactiuon believing the prospectus for each project.
If the performance has not been up to scratch due to actions of the company (or anyone believes they have been misled) then they should join a class action.
There are no shortages of alternative managers for the projects and nobody could argue that there has been anything special about GTP's operational skills after observing the results of the first projects.
Cheers,
P.s.comes from a very astute investor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berkshire Hathaway vice-chairman Warren Buffett commenting on poor financial management in companies, "Its only when the tide goes out you find who was swimming in the nude."
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the
experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-- Douglas Adams.
Does anyone have any theories/clues as to why the stock price has gone from 8c to 17c yesterday? (not 8 to 17 in one day, but from a low of 8 to a high of 17 yesterday).
I have shares from my rustled cattle...I was thinking of jumping at 8 cents...now by waiting...its doubled (from 8 cents).
Strange. Something happening that no one has said about?
Ireckon it is an optiontrade or call being hauled in ,you know those parasites that hedge and manipulate the share price,should be made illegal,just like gtp should
Nothing was defamatory,it is the truth,adeena must be some legal wizard ,maybe it is john mond,any way Ithink bluesdog is now frightened for doing it and notice how blusdog has tried to deflect it,not smart
oh well gtp had investor 1,looks like we will see where adeena lines up,keep your guard up
I have found a P.R.2004/5(withdrawn) income tax great souuthern plantations
in particular paragraph 75 on the finance and the full recourse(dfinition below--one of)
After attempting to decipher this doco it seems that great southern can flog off their loan book to jack the ripper if they like,as this P.R.2004/5 had not allowed it to gtp's detriment and it gave full recourse to the person who had the loan taken with gtp only.
stay with me on this.,,,because of this does that mean now ?.
*that the bank of Adelaide and its newly acquired Bendigo bank are now commercial Investment banks?
*from the taxation withdrawl,this only applies as far as my tax obligations to the ATO. and that the above PR 2004/5 is in realtion to tax deductability only?
*Is it fair to assume that the RE at gtp was challenging the ATO on the basis that being a good corporate citizen that it was protecting my commercial interest that I had signed for with great southern finance only and that great southern plantations was challenging the ATO that the expenses were not legitimate deductions.
*As the investor in great southern,and at the time of the withdrawl of P.R.2004/5,does my contract with GTP still legally enforcable as it was stated that a return of 250 cubic metres was STATED on the doco to the ATO.
*Why was the shareholders not given a price sensitive announcement on the ASX as to change of status and the announcement as to why this was done and the restructuring of the financial dealings with great southern finances.
*Has great southern used my tree's that I own as security un be known to me and if they have do I now have a legal case to instigate legal action to recover monies invested and forward projections of loss of investment.
* I once again note that I did not agree to having another entity finance my loan,it was done with great southern finance only
These I believe that these questions and other s need to be answered now.
definition of full recourse-----
with full recourse -- a term used in the secondary mortgage loan market. It refers to a written clause in a sales agreement by which a lender sells mortgages to an investor. It means the seller/lender will fully reimburse the buyer/investor for any losses resulting from the purchased loans. This may be accomplished by the seller taking back any loans that become delinquent.
Copyright © 2005 by Mark McCracken, All Rights Reserved. TeachMeFinance.com is an informational website, and should not be used as a substitute for professional financial or legal advice. TeachMeFinance.com and its owner recommend consultation with a professional financial advisor prior to any investment or financial decision. Please read our disclaimer.
in particular paragraph 75 on the finance and the full recourse(dfinition below--one of)
After attempting to decipher this doco it seems that great southern can flog off their loan book to jack the ripper if they like,as this P.R.2004/5 had not allowed it to gtp's detriment and it gave full recourse to the person who had the loan taken with gtp only.
stay with me on this.,,,because of this does that mean now ?.
*that the bank of Adelaide and its newly acquired Bendigo bank are now commercial Investment banks?
*from the taxation withdrawl,this only applies as far as my tax obligations to the ATO. and that the above PR 2004/5 is in realtion to tax deductability only?
*Is it fair to assume that the RE at gtp was challenging the ATO on the basis that being a good corporate citizen that it was protecting my commercial interest that I had signed for with great southern finance only and that great southern plantations was challenging the ATO that the expenses were not legitimate deductions.
*As the investor in great southern,and at the time of the withdrawl of P.R.2004/5,does my contract with GTP still legally enforcable as it was stated that a return of 250 cubic metres was STATED on the doco to the ATO.
*Why was the shareholders not given a price sensitive announcement on the ASX as to change of status and the announcement as to why this was done and the restructuring of the financial dealings with great southern finances.
*Has great southern used my tree's that I own as security un be known to me and if they have do I now have a legal case to instigate legal action to recover monies invested and forward projections of loss of investment.
* I once again note that I did not agree to having another entity finance my loan,it was done with great southern finance only
These I believe that these questions and other s need to be answered now.
definition of full recourse-----
with full recourse -- a term used in the secondary mortgage loan market. It refers to a written clause in a sales agreement by which a lender sells mortgages to an investor. It means the seller/lender will fully reimburse the buyer/investor for any losses resulting from the purchased loans. This may be accomplished by the seller taking back any loans that become delinquent.
Copyright © 2005 by Mark McCracken, All Rights Reserved. TeachMeFinance.com is an informational website, and should not be used as a substitute for professional financial or legal advice. TeachMeFinance.com and its owner recommend consultation with a professional financial advisor prior to any investment or financial decision. Please read our disclaimer.
Has anyone heard anything about what's happening with Dennis & Co or ASIC and the 250 m ³ speculation?
Also, have GSL issued a new prospectus for the current year? If so does it still say the 250 m ³ figure that they have never come close to achieving? Surely by now that can be proven to be grossly misleading if it appears in any new documents.
Watch out for new GSL attempts to seize plantations up to 2003 again and also this year they will include 2004. The ATO won't let them try for anything under 4 years old.
Also, have GSL issued a new prospectus for the current year? If so does it still say the 250 m ³ figure that they have never come close to achieving? Surely by now that can be proven to be grossly misleading if it appears in any new documents.
Watch out for new GSL attempts to seize plantations up to 2003 again and also this year they will include 2004. The ATO won't let them try for anything under 4 years old.
2005 GSL Prospectus page 25 quote "and all land is physically assessed by a professional forester as being capable of being managed to produce 250 cubic metres gross of harvestable timber per hectare of Woodlots after approximately 10 years of growth."
Is this far fetched or what???
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Found this on ABN Newswire
M&A News
Forestry group Great Southern (ASX:GTP) said one potential buyer is conducting due diligence for a major stake to acquire its cattle assets. AS part of its corporate restructure, the company is selling 27 encumbered properties in southeastern Queensland in a move to raise about A$29 million. Great Southern expects to book a net loss of up to A$130 million for the first half.
M&A News
Forestry group Great Southern (ASX:GTP) said one potential buyer is conducting due diligence for a major stake to acquire its cattle assets. AS part of its corporate restructure, the company is selling 27 encumbered properties in southeastern Queensland in a move to raise about A$29 million. Great Southern expects to book a net loss of up to A$130 million for the first half.
One must assume that it's only a matter of time before other class actions start for the other years, if their claims are proved to be misleading or fraudulent. Their claim about 250 cubic metres per hectare seems to be way out of the ballpark.
Hi there.... I have a 2005 Prospectus and on page 25 it clearly states that the plantation can be managed to achieve 250 cubic metres/hectare.. Do you have the ASIC contact details?
