If any MIS tree investors in each of the plantations has the address's as in mail contact of other investors in the projects .It is believed that Dennis & Co.would be interested in contacting these investors even if they are not in the class action,to what ends?,I would only suggest that it would be of benefit for the investors that are in the action and also alert other investors that their investment is under threat and the fact that the investors in the 03/04 for instance can expect a call.
GTP - Great Southern Plantations
- Thread starter Rafa
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dclegal.com.au
based in sydney, 02 8256 0600.
ask for Ed.
can't help with ASIC.
it's a cold winter without firewood,
and it's a long summer with no steaks on the barbie!
don't waste anymore time with GTP
Here's how to lodge a complaint with ASIC (from an earlier post of mine).
Go to www.asic.gov.au and click on 'contact us' for phone numbers etc. If you want to lodge a complaint online:
Go to www.asic.gov.au, top right of the page and 'how to complain'. Next page go down to Question 6 'make a formal complaint'. Company details when you're asked are:
GREAT SOUTHERN LIMITED
Company # 052046536
16 Parliament Place
6005
Australia (obviously)
Ph 08 93209700
Fax 08 93219288
Go to www.asic.gov.au and click on 'contact us' for phone numbers etc. If you want to lodge a complaint online:
Go to www.asic.gov.au, top right of the page and 'how to complain'. Next page go down to Question 6 'make a formal complaint'. Company details when you're asked are:
GREAT SOUTHERN LIMITED
Company # 052046536
16 Parliament Place
6005
Australia (obviously)
Ph 08 93209700
Fax 08 93219288
Hi everyone,
Sorry for being incommunicado. I've been reading the weekly log though.
I got a response from ASIC, just a form letter saying they investigated and they are not going to do anything further but thanks for the info and ... something along the lines that if more people complain then maybe they'll use all the information to do something???
Anyway ... I'm sure she's absolutely going to love my doing this, but the contacts at ASIC are:
Initial contact:
Sarah Arnold.
Sarah.Arnold@asic.gov.au
Misconduct & Breach Reporting
Stakeholder Services
Australian Securities & Investments Commission
Followed up with:
Belinda Sandonato
03 9280 3460
Belinda.Sandonato@asic.gov.au
Surely the fact that ASIC has no prospectuses lodged post-2003 and some of you guys have been able to reference prospectuses up to 2006 is a problem that should be investigated.
Anyway go for your life folks, BOMBARD them!!
Sorry for being incommunicado. I've been reading the weekly log though.
I got a response from ASIC, just a form letter saying they investigated and they are not going to do anything further but thanks for the info and ... something along the lines that if more people complain then maybe they'll use all the information to do something???
Anyway ... I'm sure she's absolutely going to love my doing this, but the contacts at ASIC are:
Initial contact:
Sarah Arnold.
Sarah.Arnold@asic.gov.au
Misconduct & Breach Reporting
Stakeholder Services
Australian Securities & Investments Commission
Followed up with:
Belinda Sandonato
03 9280 3460
Belinda.Sandonato@asic.gov.au
Surely the fact that ASIC has no prospectuses lodged post-2003 and some of you guys have been able to reference prospectuses up to 2006 is a problem that should be investigated.
Anyway go for your life folks, BOMBARD them!!
Dudmis,Dennis and Co. wre the main dudes behind the litigation on sonns of Gwalia,the same building that GTP occupies is where Sons of Gwalia resided(trivial info),also involved litigation against HIH,and I believe Alco Finance has D&C breathing down their neck.
Call them --ask for Fred GULSON,mr No nonsense.
They are a Sydney Boutique group of gun lawyers,just the type to go spotlight shooting for viral infected vermin in the West of this country
Its good to see that Directors Rhodes and Butlin have just taken up their respective 1.5 million and 1 million share issues at $0.00, subject to performance hurdles of course.
Just what are these performance hurdles? After all the performance has been:
- a share price that dropped from several dollars to 13 cents over 2 years,
- debt payments only just covered for this year by seizing investor assets,
- an insolvent company earnings sheet,
- unable to pay any shareholder dividends,
- unlikely to fulfill TREES payments,
- cash position forcing selling off assets under value,
- managing investments that have continually failed to come close to forecasts...
The list goes on and on. Maybe the hurdle was managing to turn up to work more than 5 days per year. That seems to be the only thing they've achieved.
After forcing cattle investors to take huge losses in only 1 or 2 years, large tax liabilities and $0.50 shares worth $0.13 and unlikely to improve... surely this is ANOTHER example of snouts in the trough. Where is Investor 1, the forum's GSL management representative? Why isn't he/she here to explain how this was all such a good deal and how GSL management are worth anything at all? They are hopeless agribusiness managers and despite resumes are completely inept financial managers. Other than management performance share issues of course, they're experts at that.
Just what are these performance hurdles? After all the performance has been:
- a share price that dropped from several dollars to 13 cents over 2 years,
- debt payments only just covered for this year by seizing investor assets,
- an insolvent company earnings sheet,
- unable to pay any shareholder dividends,
- unlikely to fulfill TREES payments,
- cash position forcing selling off assets under value,
- managing investments that have continually failed to come close to forecasts...
The list goes on and on. Maybe the hurdle was managing to turn up to work more than 5 days per year. That seems to be the only thing they've achieved.
After forcing cattle investors to take huge losses in only 1 or 2 years, large tax liabilities and $0.50 shares worth $0.13 and unlikely to improve... surely this is ANOTHER example of snouts in the trough. Where is Investor 1, the forum's GSL management representative? Why isn't he/she here to explain how this was all such a good deal and how GSL management are worth anything at all? They are hopeless agribusiness managers and despite resumes are completely inept financial managers. Other than management performance share issues of course, they're experts at that.
Just hold on a minute Forenth, I think you've got it completely wrong! My financial adviser assured me there was upside in giving away my cattle for next to nothing, indicating the share price could again scale the dizzy highs of $2-3. I hope you're not implying I've been led astray, and the GTP management have done me some sort of wrong?!
Thanks for pointing this out Forenth. I saw the announcment, but didnt realise $0.00 purchase price (effectively).
Also, no one has said the performance hurdles.
With the announcement by Timbercorp that they are having trouble selling their plantation assets, and the company is staring at the financial abyss, I am really concerned about my GTP shares that I was forced to take for my cattle.
Anyone else have any opinions on what the significance of the Timbercorp announcment is? (with respect to Great Southern).
- Joined
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- 141
The only thing I can think of is a line from 'Lost in Space'......
Robot flailing arms around.... "warning, danger, extreme danger".
The assets that Timbercorp is trying to flog have all sorts of long term contracts/leases attached to them, so it restricts the market for those assets. In a similar vein the assets that GTP will be trying to flog are not going to be unencumbered. This has to mean a reduction in the price received if buyers can be found at all. Of course all potential buyers know that GTP is a desperate seller (same as TIM) and can afford to play the waiting/squeezing game.
Does it really matter to a buyer if they buy from the company or a liquidator??
brty
Do you see any correlation between GTP and TIM?
Stock & Land News Skip directly to: Search Box, Section Navigation, Content.
News National Rural News Agribusiness and General General Could land become cheap as woodchips? Could land become cheap as woodchips?
MARIUS CUMING
4/02/2009 5:22:00 PM
Timbercorp is in the process of selling 50,000 hectares planted to blue gums to reduce debt, roughly half its timber estate.
Superannuation funds are amongst the interested parties according to the Managed Investment Scheme (MIS) company.
Timbercorp has stated it will lease the land back but growing woodchips on good farming land was always like “buying a sheep farm to grow dags” according to one agribusiness banker who recently spoke to agricultural economist and valuer Sam Paton.
He says, on a pre-tax basis, it rarely stacks up, and even allowing for 40c in the dollar tax deduction, the break-even threshold for an investor to recover the full commitment of their investment in woodlots, management and lease fees, is high.
Over the coming years, as the blue gum harvest takes place, uncertainty surrounds the future of close to 500,000 hectares under MIS forestry in southern Australia.
“Neither government nor investor did their sums at the time to ensure that a value adding process was in place (similar to the Pinus radiata industry in Green Triangle and the Upper Murray of New South Wales), and while thousands of hectares of high quality land was being turned over to plant blue gums, despite media speculation about numerous proposed mills in the Green Triangle, 10 years after the launch of the vision statement by Wilson Tuckey, the only value adding option is for woodchips at Portland and Corio,” he said.
Port of Portland management has confirmed four hardwood chip shipments due to sail to Japan have now been cancelled since November.
Ironically this week the first dedicated ship of hardwood chips left the port.
“I understand that the supply of pulpwood through the pipeline is full relative to demand and like in any tough financial time, companies are running down their inventories. I have a lot of faith that the trees will be harvested and will come through here, the fundamentals are still solid for the blue gums,” the port’s chief executive officer Scott Paterson said.
However forestry experts do not necessarily agree.
Senior lecturer in Forest Science at Melbourne University Rowan Reid said there was always uncertainty surrounding the future a plantation industry driven solely by retail investors.
“I have often said that if poorly designed, wall-to-wall timber plantations can be a form of land degradation. If they fail commercially and provide no other secondary values, such as shelter or land degradation control, then land values can fall. It may cost as much as $1000 per hectare just to get it back to a state that it can be used for agriculture again.”
However, Mr Reid sees some good coming from the shake-up of the industry.
“Investment forestry will probably contract back into selected areas where the rainfall, soils, land values and proximity to markets come together to underpin their real profitability. This will open up market opportunities for farmers in surrounding areas who are willing to integrate timber plantations with their farming systems. The mistake of the last decade is that industry and government put all their hopes on the MIS model alone, rather than looking at what is required to develop a truly sustainable forestry sector that is integrated into the existing agricultural landscape.”
The present price of woodchips at the stump varies from $35 to $40 according to one forestry company who did not want to be named.
“Based on recent feedback we have received about yields, it is questionable as to what net return these investors will receive even factoring in the tax break, given the crop income is not received for 10 to 12 years.”
Mr Paton said after the blue gum harvest which is set to peak next year, big questions remained.
“Without a second rotation of trees, selling the land back to its previous purpose (grazing) would involve substantial costs to clear the area of stumps, flatten and resow areas to pasture. In the current economic climate I would not be surprised to see those sites not earmarked for a second rotation back on the market in coming years, but western district graziers would only typically purchase such land after it has been rehabilitated back to pasture at substantial cost.” Mr Paton said.
Great Southern, with 150,000 hectares planted to blue gum is one of the largest Forestry MIS operators and insist their business is sound.
Company spokesman David Ikon said hardwood chip prices had increased with strong demand from Japan.
He said Great Southern would not be selling prime forestry land which he described as the “crown jewels” of the company.
Under the structure of the company, investors own the trees and the company shareholders own the land.
Great Southern does have some “non-core assets” presently for sale, including land in Queensland and cattle properties on King Island, Tasmania.
Timbercorp has stressed its financial health is sound and has support of the banks.
But if large tracts of land come onto the market at once it could have major impacts on land values in the regions affected across southern Australia according to Mr Paton.
Sam Paton, senior valuer and agricultural economist with Sam Paton and Associates says if large tracts of blue gum land come onto the market at once it could have a big effect on land values in the regions concerned.Most Popular
1. Timbercorp teeters after asset sale
Copyright © 2009. Fairfax Media.
Stock & Land News Skip directly to: Search Box, Section Navigation, Content.
News National Rural News Agribusiness and General General Could land become cheap as woodchips? Could land become cheap as woodchips?
MARIUS CUMING
4/02/2009 5:22:00 PM
Timbercorp is in the process of selling 50,000 hectares planted to blue gums to reduce debt, roughly half its timber estate.
Superannuation funds are amongst the interested parties according to the Managed Investment Scheme (MIS) company.
Timbercorp has stated it will lease the land back but growing woodchips on good farming land was always like “buying a sheep farm to grow dags” according to one agribusiness banker who recently spoke to agricultural economist and valuer Sam Paton.
He says, on a pre-tax basis, it rarely stacks up, and even allowing for 40c in the dollar tax deduction, the break-even threshold for an investor to recover the full commitment of their investment in woodlots, management and lease fees, is high.
Over the coming years, as the blue gum harvest takes place, uncertainty surrounds the future of close to 500,000 hectares under MIS forestry in southern Australia.
“Neither government nor investor did their sums at the time to ensure that a value adding process was in place (similar to the Pinus radiata industry in Green Triangle and the Upper Murray of New South Wales), and while thousands of hectares of high quality land was being turned over to plant blue gums, despite media speculation about numerous proposed mills in the Green Triangle, 10 years after the launch of the vision statement by Wilson Tuckey, the only value adding option is for woodchips at Portland and Corio,” he said.
Port of Portland management has confirmed four hardwood chip shipments due to sail to Japan have now been cancelled since November.
Ironically this week the first dedicated ship of hardwood chips left the port.
“I understand that the supply of pulpwood through the pipeline is full relative to demand and like in any tough financial time, companies are running down their inventories. I have a lot of faith that the trees will be harvested and will come through here, the fundamentals are still solid for the blue gums,” the port’s chief executive officer Scott Paterson said.
However forestry experts do not necessarily agree.
Senior lecturer in Forest Science at Melbourne University Rowan Reid said there was always uncertainty surrounding the future a plantation industry driven solely by retail investors.
“I have often said that if poorly designed, wall-to-wall timber plantations can be a form of land degradation. If they fail commercially and provide no other secondary values, such as shelter or land degradation control, then land values can fall. It may cost as much as $1000 per hectare just to get it back to a state that it can be used for agriculture again.”
However, Mr Reid sees some good coming from the shake-up of the industry.
“Investment forestry will probably contract back into selected areas where the rainfall, soils, land values and proximity to markets come together to underpin their real profitability. This will open up market opportunities for farmers in surrounding areas who are willing to integrate timber plantations with their farming systems. The mistake of the last decade is that industry and government put all their hopes on the MIS model alone, rather than looking at what is required to develop a truly sustainable forestry sector that is integrated into the existing agricultural landscape.”
The present price of woodchips at the stump varies from $35 to $40 according to one forestry company who did not want to be named.
“Based on recent feedback we have received about yields, it is questionable as to what net return these investors will receive even factoring in the tax break, given the crop income is not received for 10 to 12 years.”
Mr Paton said after the blue gum harvest which is set to peak next year, big questions remained.
“Without a second rotation of trees, selling the land back to its previous purpose (grazing) would involve substantial costs to clear the area of stumps, flatten and resow areas to pasture. In the current economic climate I would not be surprised to see those sites not earmarked for a second rotation back on the market in coming years, but western district graziers would only typically purchase such land after it has been rehabilitated back to pasture at substantial cost.” Mr Paton said.
Great Southern, with 150,000 hectares planted to blue gum is one of the largest Forestry MIS operators and insist their business is sound.
Company spokesman David Ikon said hardwood chip prices had increased with strong demand from Japan.
He said Great Southern would not be selling prime forestry land which he described as the “crown jewels” of the company.
Under the structure of the company, investors own the trees and the company shareholders own the land.
Great Southern does have some “non-core assets” presently for sale, including land in Queensland and cattle properties on King Island, Tasmania.
Timbercorp has stressed its financial health is sound and has support of the banks.
But if large tracts of land come onto the market at once it could have major impacts on land values in the regions affected across southern Australia according to Mr Paton.
Sam Paton, senior valuer and agricultural economist with Sam Paton and Associates says if large tracts of blue gum land come onto the market at once it could have a big effect on land values in the regions concerned.Most Popular
1. Timbercorp teeters after asset sale
Copyright © 2009. Fairfax Media.
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- 5 March 2008
- Posts
- 951
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- 141
I think the market is agreeing with you as the price is down 12.5% today so far.
Reading the blurb that always accompanies Timbercorp's market releases, about what a good sound company it is, is quite funny given todays release about the appointment of administrators.
brty
I am staggered GTP are flogging 2009 plantation investments. How could a financial planner with an ounce of credibilitiy seriously recommend it to their client?
Fnancial planners act in their own interests first and foremost. If their interests, and their clients interests align, then that is a bonus.
The 10-15% commissions offered by Great Southern to financial planners to sell their products make acting in a client's interest a passing consideration.
My guess is that investors are at the end of the creditor list and given GTP's position there are no $ to even pay the top of the list if they go belly up.
As for proving they lied, they will just point to the forester and claim "he told us so!". Despite being inept accountants they will still point out they're not foresters and they got an 'expert' to justify the claims. No matter that he was paid to agree with their figures.
You'll know when they're about to appoint administrators as the management will resign and take their 12 months payout the day before. There may even be a massive increase in share selloffs which drives the price through the floor, but I dunno if anyone would risk an insider trading charge. Then again, we've seen ASIC will allow anything from this company.
Investors will have to hope GTP or someone else will take the trees through to harvest. Remember, at the time of investment GTP were meant to establish a fund that would pay for the crop through to harvest. Is that money actually there?
Well, I was part of that sell off. Thanks to everyone for their informative postings here, I sold out all my "cattle rustled" shares that GTP thrust upon me.
I reckon its better to get the pathetic few thousand dollars that I got rather than nothing.
Has anyone considered sueing their financial adviser?
MIS investors would have invested, largely relying on the advice provided by their advisers.
GTP only accepted MIS investments that came via advisers.
I know my adviser did not disclose his upfront and trailing commissions that totalled 15%.
MIS investors would have invested, largely relying on the advice provided by their advisers.
GTP only accepted MIS investments that came via advisers.
I know my adviser did not disclose his upfront and trailing commissions that totalled 15%.
Has anyone considered sueing their financial adviser?
Why bother unless,your adviser scrubbed you,plus a lot of advisers are ripped off in this also.David Monde is a very astute person and has been ripped off.
Forget the advisers,how about wacking a caveat on the directors of GTP and the company and their private assets?,I know the outcome ,but how very very embarassing,plus as I understand the growers have legal recourse against GTP, you know where the lender takes back the loan and keeps the assets.
That scenario would be fine for me getting rid of the loan ,and then coming back at GTP when they just thought they had gotten rid of me and gotten the land freed up with a tangible asset taken back on the cheap,to find a class action waiting for them ,plus a common law suite
