Gay Marriage

[Calliope]

I've still not seen you or Miss Hale actually articulate what harm you believe will befall these children. How is being raised by 2 gay parents different from say a single parent raising children?

A well known Sydney gay sauna advertises;

"All Races.Ages.Sizes.Welcome".

At what age, sydboy, do you suggest that your "2 gay parents" should acquaint their "son" with the gay "facts of life"?

 

[sydboy007]

A well known Sydney gay sauna advertises;

"All Races.Ages.Sizes.Welcome".

At what age, sydboy, do you suggest that your "2 gay parents" should acquaint their "son" with the gay "facts of life"?

How many brothels are located in Kings Cross? How many out in the suburbs of Sydney? How many in your local area? How many of the customers at brothels are married? At what point do you believe a heterosexual couple should acquaint their son with their nearest brothel? Why do you assume a male child of a gay couple is gay? Would a female child of a lesbian couple also be gay?

/sarcasm How confusing it would be if a gay couple had a child of the opposite sex /sarcasm

 

[sydboy007]

Syd, do what you like. But please don't expect everyone else to necessarily want to know about it.

Then no need to read this thread. I've not forced you to read this or participate in the discussion.

Time and again people say they oppose gay marriage because of the children, yet never specify exactly what that harm will be, while seemingly oblivious of the huge amount of harm that is occurring within far too many heterosexual families.

I'm not arguing that all gay people would make good parents, but I do argue that since it is a conscious decision and that they would be following a formal adoption process that it's more likely they would make good parents, with a good probability of providing a far better environment for a child to grow up than in a dysfunctional family.

As for the couple who bought a child, that was outside any formal adoption process. There's plenty of cases of heterosexual men doing similar. It's an abhorrent crime and I hope anyone doing it is caught and faces the full weight of the law.

It would be unlikely a similar outcome would occur during a formal adoption.

Very disturbing article in the SMH today http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/calls-for...d-over-abandoned-children-20140410-36g31.html

found that 75,000 cases of reported abuse never received a face to face assessment by a caseworker.

which examined changes between 2010-11 and 2012-13, found that only 28 per cent of the 104,000 reports of abuse received face-to-face investigation

Adolescents were less likely to receive a visit, with only only one in five at-risk teens getting a face to face assessment in 2012-13.

More than 40,000 vulnerable children are having their cases quietly buried and shredded.

 

[Calliope]

How many brothels are located in Kings Cross? How many out in the suburbs of Sydney? How many in your local area? How many of the customers at brothels are married? At what point do you believe a heterosexual couple should acquaint their son with their nearest brothel?

It is interesting that you equate gay saunas with brothels.

Why do you assume a male child of a gay couple is gay? Would a female child of a lesbian couple also be gay?

I didn't. But surely no child should exposed to the unnatural recreational habits of their "parents".

/sarcasm How confusing it would be if a gay couple had a child of the opposite sex /sarcasm

Confusing to whom?

 

[ftw129]

The issue some people have about gay parents has no business in this thread which is titled "Gay marriage" (in my opinion) but I feel I may have an interesting experience to offer.

When I was undertaking the screening required in order to become a sperm donor I was informed that my sperm would never be used in couples that were not white/caucasian (as I am).

Their reason was because that all of the decisions made, surrounding any IVF births was always centered around the child's psychological welfare as being paramount, rather than the needs of anyone else. Fair enough....

There were other things that are screened before any grant is made to any couple but sexuality is not one of them and I was told that these criteria have been developed based on many years of research on the psychological development of IVF children.

That is fact and can be researched at your own leisure. (I attended the Melbourne IVF clinic to become a donor)

Interestingly, most of the gay people that I know, have no desire to ever get married and even less so to have children. In fact, not one single gay couple that I know has any desire to do either and is quite embarrassed about this whole "issue" but that doesn't mean that they don't think it's wrong to be discriminated against, based on their sexuality.

Children aside, the quicker this irrelevant and ugly "issue" is resolved with the changing of the current outdated legislation, the less frustration for all, gay or not.

 

[SirRumpole]

The issue some people have about gay parents has no business in this thread which is titled "Gay marriage" (in my opinion) but I feel I may have an interesting experience to offer.

When I was undertaking the screening required in order to become a sperm donor I was informed that my sperm would never be used in couples that were not white/caucasian (as I am).

Their reason was because that all of the decisions made, surrounding any IVF births was always centered around the child's psychological welfare as being paramount, rather than the needs of anyone else. Fair enough....

There were other things that are screened before any grant is made to any couple but sexuality is not one of them and I was told that these criteria have been developed based on many years of research on the psychological development of IVF children.

That is fact and can be researched at your own leisure. (I attended the Melbourne IVF clinic to become a donor)

Interestingly, most of the gay people that I know, have no desire to ever get married and even less so to have children. In fact, not one single gay couple that I know has any desire to do either and is quite embarrassed about this whole "issue" but that doesn't mean that they don't think it's wrong to be discriminated against, based on their sexuality.

Children aside, the quicker this irrelevant and ugly "issue" is resolved with the changing of the current outdated legislation, the less frustration for all, gay or not.

Just interested in your motivation for becoming a sperm donor. Did you get paid ?

Also very interesting that mixed race children are quite common now, but are apparently able to be discriminated against, but you can't discriminate against gays . I think it says more about the power of the gay lobby these days than any 'psychology'.

 

[Julia]

Then no need to read this thread. I've not forced you to read this or participate in the discussion.

My contribution to the thread has been minimal. As you are entirely capable of understanding, my earlier comments did not relate just to this thread. Much more to the incessant banging on about gay marriage by the minority who are insisting on continuing to push the issue so vociferously. It's impossible to listen to ABC radio for any few days and not have it thrust across the airwaves at us. Usually it's interchangeable with catastrophic climate change, just for variety.

Recently I was waiting in a long supermarket queue, all checkouts open, lots of people, peak hour.
Ahead by two in my queue were two women. One had her hand down the shorts of her partner and was clearly fondling her genital area. Standing immediately behind them was a mother and three little kids, the latter being very curious about what was going on and the mother trying hard to divert their attention, unsuccessfully.

It's this sort of overt "we're here, we out and proud, and you need to get that!" stuff that many people find inappropriate and completely unnecessary.

found that 75,000 cases of reported abuse never received a face to face assessment by a caseworker.

which examined changes between 2010-11 and 2012-13, found that only 28 per cent of the 104,000 reports of abuse received face-to-face investigation

Yes, I was disappointed to hear that when it was reported on the ABC yesterday. Again, though, I don't understand what it has to do with homosexual marriage.
If we look at the currently running Royal Commission on sexual abuse in institutions, have there actually been any examples of abuse carried out by women? I've not heard any. The perpetrators have all been male.
Similarly, all the non-institutional sexual abuse I've heard of or come across has been by males.

Child Services (or whatever they're currently called) is as under funded as many other essential care services, aged care just as one example. But no one wants to pay any more taxes. Even the notion of propping up Medicare with a minimal $5 charge received outrage.
So, as long as that's the case, social workers are going to have to do their best to assess by phone and other records which cases require the most urgent face to face attention. It's a thankless job and morale is low.

 

[Julia]

Interestingly, most of the gay people that I know, have no desire to ever get married and even less so to have children. In fact, not one single gay couple that I know has any desire to do either and is quite embarrassed about this whole "issue" but that doesn't mean that they don't think it's wrong to be discriminated against, based on their sexuality.

Good to hear. The two issues are entirely separate. I don't know anyone who has any issue with any adult's sexual preference with one exception of a crusty old bloke in his 80s who still thinks it's a choice and 'someone should wallop it out of them'. Yes, really.

 

[ftw129]

Just interested in your motivation for becoming a sperm donor. Did you get paid

Thank you for your interest. I have a couple of reasons for becoming a donor and I'm happy to answer you in private if you'd like however I will say here that money was not one of them. I've been asked whether I got paid to donate a couple of times already and I'm not entirely sure where that idea comes from. It is illegal in Australia to pay for human sperm (under the Human Tissue Act 1982). (I was born in 1981) However, I will admit that I did receive "reimbursement" for my time and travel costs which is calculated on the distance from your house to the clinic but is certainly not an amount that would entice anybody to make the rather serious commitment to become a sperm donor which is an 18 month to 2 year process involving psychiatric and physical assessments. Not to mention the prospect of having children trying to track you down for the rest of your life.

(For the record I was employed full time on a 60k+ per year salary at the time)

 

[SirRumpole]

Not to mention the prospect of having children trying to track you down for the rest of your life.

(For the record I was employed full time on a 60k+ per year salary at the time.)

Thanks for your reply.

While I don't doubt your motives, the statement quoted above does create a lot of concern, to me at least, about the morality (for want of a better word) of creating children via IVF where a part of their lives that is very important to them is missing, and there is a necessity for them to go to great lengths to fill in those gaps.

One wonders if there is more concern about the 'needs' (or maybe it really is 'wants') of the parents rather than those of the children.

I was also under the impression (from another source), that the biological parents of IVF children are required to be disclosed to them. If so, donors must know that there is a possibility that they will be tracked down one day.

 

[ftw129]

Thanks for your reply.

While I don't doubt your motives, the statement quoted above does create a lot of concern, to me at least, about the morality (for want of a better word) of creating children via IVF where a part of their lives that is very important to them is missing, and there is a necessity for them to go to great lengths to fill in those gaps.

One wonders if there is more concern about the 'needs' (or maybe it really is 'wants') of the parents rather than those of the children.

I was also under the impression (from another source), that the biological parents of IVF children are required to be disclosed to them. If so, donors must know that there is a possibility that they will be tracked down one day.

Please let me explain;

I would not have been allowed to become a donor had I not have agreed to release a few basic details about myself to to "my" future "biological" children (with the assurance that the information about myself would not be enough for them to be able to track me down or identify me just from that information alone).

I was also given the option to elect an age for the children to be able to enquire about my identity for possible "meeting". I elected that when the children reach the age of 16, that I am willing to be contacted by the IVF clinic and make a decision then, whether or not I would like to meet. This was of course, entirely optional and no donor ever has to meet "their" biological children.

I was also delighted to be able to supply my future children with photos of myself as a child along with my brother in order to satisfy their natural curiosity about what their biological father looks like. Also, I wrote them all a beautiful letter that they can have from the moment they are born.

The clinic does not accept donors unwilling to at least provide their first name to the children and some other very basic and unidentifiable pieces of information.

Personally, I was thrilled to give the kids as much as I can and I can not tell you the immense amount of satisfaction that I've gotten out of the whole experience . I am the type of donor that the clinic screens for. It is not easy for just anyone to become a donor and without any material rewards the process does not attract men that have any other reason to become a donor other then quite personal ones.

Of course, babies being born this way is a very controversial topic and for very good reason.

Much more controversial than that of gay marriage... (That's my opinion anyway)

 

[sydboy007]

It is interesting that you equate gay saunas with brothels.



I didn't. But surely no child should exposed to the unnatural recreational habits of their "parents".



Confusing to whom?

I'd say brothels are probably the closest thing to a gay sauna in the heterosexual world, apart from say a key party I suppose.

What unnatural recreational habits are we talking about? Are they something that only same sex partners do, or something for heterosexual partners too?

Why do you even suggest that a gay couple would take their son to a gay sauna? Saying that implies you believe a male child of a gay male couple is by default also gay, or will somehow be taught to be gay. I can assure you sexual orientation is something we're all born with, otherwise how do you explain gay children raised by heterosexual parents?

You'd probably never think to ask a heterosexual friend about when they thought a heterosexual couple would take their child to a brothel for them to learn about the "heterosexual" facts of life.

 

[Calliope]

What unnatural recreational habits are we talking about? Are they something that only same sex partners do, or something for heterosexual partners too?

I doubt that a normal couple would visit a gay sauna,

Why do you even suggest that a gay couple would take their son to a gay sauna?

There you go again, I didn't suggest that. But the question is purely hypothetical. As you have said, it is not easy for a male gay couple to gain control of a child.

You'd probably never think to ask a heterosexual friend about when they thought a heterosexual couple would take their child to a brothel for them to learn about the "heterosexual" facts of life.

Of course not. Why should I?

 

[banco]

Good to hear. The two issues are entirely separate. I don't know anyone who has any issue with any adult's sexual preference with one exception of a crusty old bloke in his 80s who still thinks it's a choice and 'someone should wallop it out of them'. Yes, really.

I wouldn't have picked Caliope as being so old.

 

[Julia]

I wouldn't have picked Caliope as being so old.

Just for the record, it was not Calliope whom I had in mind. I make no comment about Calliope's views.

 

[Calliope]

I wouldn't have picked Caliope as being so old.

You are quite a piece of work. Julia said she knows this guy. She certainly doesn't know me.

 

[sydboy007]

I doubt that a normal couple would visit a gay sauna,



There you go again, I didn't suggest that. But the question is purely hypothetical. As you have said, it is not easy for a male gay couple to gain control of a child.



Of course not. Why should I?

What is a normal couple?

Then why did you ask the hypothetical question? What purpose did it serve regarding the discussion about gay marriage?

If you felt it was OK to ask the question hypothetically about a gay couple, why are you so adamant you would never ask a similar question about a heterosexual couple?

 

[Calliope]

What is a normal couple?

Male and female of course.

If you felt it was OK to ask the question hypothetically about a gay couple, why are you so adamant you would never ask a similar question about a heterosexual couple?

Why do you ask silly questions?

 

[Calliope]

.
It's this sort of overt "we're here, we out and proud, and you need to get that!" stuff that many people find inappropriate and completely unnecessary.

It's called the Bob Carr syndrome.

 

[Tink]

NO to Gay Marriage.

If the Gay Lobby want changes, bring on a referendum to the people.
Gays have their Union, it has been sorted for them.